145 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcian]

You probably should use complete, grammatically correct sentences when trying to express how we advance quickly. That's just a tip for next time.

Come on, man, he's a hound. Hounds can't help fumbling with the english language.

The main problem with the "Humans are Special" trope in ME is that it didn't make sense logically.
 
Humans shouldn't have been able to reach the technology level of the rest so quickly, and if they did, it should have alarmed everyone greatly.
They shouldn't have reached such an influencial position on the galactic stage so quickly either, not realistically anyway.
 
Humans should have been the underdog, and an organization like Cerberus should have been aimed at keeping humanity's head above the water so to speak, rather than the ridiculous notion of taking over the galaxy.

Back when everyone were writing ME reboots, I proposed the timeline should be pushed forward 100 years after Mass Effect is discovered in 2149. So instead of the game taking place in 2183, it would take place in 2283, with Shepard being born in 2254 instead of 2154. Still a very fast rise for humanity, but less egregiously so than the 30 year span of the original timeline.

[PrinceofTime]

Inquisitor is easily my favorite protagonist out of them, HoF, and Hawke. 

Then well never agree, our views are radically different. Anyway thats just my opinion on the matter, at least you have the multiplayer to play as different races(not much but better than nothing?)

[Cyonan]

Without emotion why is doing anything logical? The logical course of action to achieve the desired outcome, yet the very word "desired" implies emotion. Without that, and unless overridden by some hardcoded goals, I see no reason for an AI to bother doing anything at all.

 

An organic species without emotion would still be driven by some level of instinct.

 

If I can 100% remove my emotion then I wont be happy or sad or anything about staying alive, but my instincts will still tell me that I should do things to ensure that happens.

 

The AI thing gets weird because it's been created by the organic species, which means that it follows the code set out by that person. If the AI is coded to emulate those instincts, it will follow a similar pattern.

 

If we're talking about 100% pure logic then that character would likely be highly conflicted and I don't know as it would be an AI anymore. It would need a logical reason to do something yes, but it would also need a logical reason not to do something. So it would come down to which option is more logical, but there would have to be some kind of additional input to be able to determine which one is more logical.

[PrinceofTime]

I agree, but DAI was lame anyway.

Yeah, thats just one of the many reasons.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Then well never agree, our views are radically different. Anyway thats just my opinion on the matter, at least you have the multiplayer to play as different races(not much but better than nothing?)

No, that may as well be nothing. In multiplayer there is no story, no choices, no interactions, or anything else other than combat which makes Mass Effect Mass Effect. In fact it is more salt in the wound than anything since it shows they have the body skeletons and the animations in the game, they just decided not to use them in singleplayer because we have to have our story of human-centric ego-stroking nonsense.

[Reorte]

An organic species without emotion would still be driven by some level of instinct.

 

If I can 100% remove my emotion then I wont be happy or sad or anything about staying alive, but my instincts will still tell me that I should do things to ensure that happens.

 

The AI thing gets weird because it's been created by the organic species, which means that it follows the code set out by that person. If the AI is coded to emulate those instincts, it will follow a similar pattern.

 

If we're talking about 100% pure logic then that character would likely be highly conflicted and I don't know as it would be an AI anymore. It would need a logical reason to do something yes, but it would also need a logical reason not to do something. So it would come down to which option is more logical, but there would have to be some kind of additional input to be able to determine which one is more logical.

I'm not sure where the dividing line between instinct and emotion is though, or even if there is one, at least once you get beyond the most basic mechanical functions.

 

For there to be a logical reason to do something or not to do something that has to be a desire for a particular outcome, from which you can then chart a logical path to. But you can't use logic to determine what that outcome is, that's ultimately either emotional or instinctive. I'd argue that whatever hardcoded goals an AI have are the equivalent of instincts so it'll go and pursue those, beyond that? Needs more I think.

[BatarianBob]

I've taken the liberty to change around the words in this post to demonstrate why it's a bullsh!t argument.

No offense, but I think that's the most harebrained use of the race card I've ever seen.

[Cyonan]

I'm not sure where the dividing line between instinct and emotion is though, or even if there is one, at least once you get beyond the most basic mechanical functions.

 

For there to be a logical reason to do something or not to do something that has to be a desire for a particular outcome, from which you can then chart a logical path to. But you can't use logic to determine what that outcome is, that's ultimately either emotional or instinctive. I'd argue that whatever hardcoded goals an AI have are the equivalent of instincts so it'll go and pursue those, beyond that? Needs more I think.

 

The line is definitely blurry.

 

That's why I said I think that with nothing but 100% logic it wouldn't entirely be an AI. A "being of logic" would be one that has some form of goal and uses logic to achieve said goal.

 

In the case of a PC character being this way, that goal that it was given might be something like "stop the bad guy" and thus everything it does it to further the goal to stop the bad guy.

 

If nothing else, it'd be interesting to give it a try.

[Revan Reborn]

Well to eb fair, aliens in ME arent really all that unrelatable, maybe rachni, geth, hanar and elcor are, but most are like humans. "It was Vyrnnus who made me see how human aliens are. They're not different or special, they're jerks or saints. Just like us." --- Kaidan Alenko

 

And if this was so true as op says, then why do we have race choices in some games?

 

Wow, TOR for example? Almost any roleplaying tabletop game you can mention has these too, and what requires more character roleplay from players than those?

 

(Altough in tor its just humans with different colored skin basically.)

 

The thing is to some people choice is good, it matters, theyre already humans in their everyday lives and they can never be alien in real life, except to other aliens. So whats wrong with a bit of variety, its the spice of life after all.

Keep in mind, what I am referring to is specifically a Mass Effect element. When you get into other franchises such as Star Wars and Star Trek, the underpinnings and foundations for those franchises are radically different.

 

If we have to use Star Wars, note how the main characters are almost always human, or very near human. Whether it's Ashoka, who is a togruta, or twi'leks, cathar, zabraks, miralians, miraluka, cyborgs, etc. SWTOR focuses only on species in the Star Wars universe who are relatable to humans. You will never see a wookiee, ithorian, ewok, jawa, hutt, ugnaught, or plenty of other species in the Star Wars universe ever be playable for the very simple reason they aren't relatable.

 

My point is what you want is superficial and adds nothing to the actual experience. We are human. We cannot understand another species outside of our own. We will always have a bias. It is who we are. If BioWare were to ever try an experience with a turian, asari, salarian, or quarian as the center, they would inevitably dilute these species to be more human or they wouldn't be compelling stories at all.

 

Mass Effect works incredibly well because it was from the human perspective. I agree "human exceptionalism" should be cautioned and avoided, but taking away that human perspective doesn't make sense and merely detracts from the franchise. I believe that human perspective is incredibly important and can't be lost for Mass Effect to continue being compelling, interesting, and great.

[Medhia_Nox]

I see the Human Perspective and the Humans are Special trope to be two different issues.

 

The later, I have no desire for.  Humans could be a species going extinct for all I care... but the human perspective is essential for me.

[DarthLaxian]

We are human after all. You'd think people would have more pride in that.

 

You can't/shouldn't take pride in something you didn't achieve (you didn't achieve becoming human, you didn't work to become (whatever nationality you are - unless you left your country for another - no, sir! You were just born there!), you didn't work on becoming a black, asian, caucasian etc. person, you didn't work on becoming male/female etc.)

 

That's why this argument (just like extreme patriotism etc.) makes no sense!

 

ps: The OP's arguments are somewhat better, but even they don't present a compelling reason! (I could EASILY play the game as an Asari, without trying to help humanity all the time just because I myself am human! (same for most of the other races!)...it's called role-playing and it should be considered to offer us that experience in a future Mass Effect game

[The Dystopian Hound]

You can't/shouldn't take pride in something you didn't achieve (you didn't achieve becoming human, you didn't work to become (whatever nationality you are - unless you left your country for another - no, sir! You were just born there!), you didn't work on becoming a black, asian, caucasian etc. person, you didn't work on becoming male/female etc.)

That's why this argument (just like extreme patriotism etc.) makes no sense!

ps: The OP's arguments are somewhat better, but even they don't present a compelling reason! (I could EASILY play the game as an Asari, without trying to help humanity all the time just because I myself am human! (same for most of the other races!)...it's called role-playing and it should be considered to offer us that experience in a future Mass Effect game

This guy. we live in a galaxy with different races. I can't be happy with being human? I think not.

[Reorte]

You can't/shouldn't take pride in something you didn't achieve (you didn't achieve becoming human, you didn't work to become (whatever nationality you are - unless you left your country for another - no, sir! You were just born there!), you didn't work on becoming a black, asian, caucasian etc. person, you didn't work on becoming male/female etc.)

I was going to argue against that but then I realised that I say something similar in the opposite direction - you shouldn't be ashamed of something you didn't do (no sins of the father stuff), so there's no reason it shouldn't be the same for pride.

[Medhia_Nox]

This guy. we live in a galaxy with different races. I can't be happy with being human? I think not.

 

Let's not even discuss whether there's merit in being an optimal human.

 

If we base humanity off a concept... most people fail at it miserably and terminally.

 

So celebrating being a successful human would/should be an accomplishment.

[Cyonan]

You can't/shouldn't take pride in something you didn't achieve (you didn't achieve becoming human, you didn't work to become (whatever nationality you are - unless you left your country for another - no, sir! You were just born there!), you didn't work on becoming a black, asian, caucasian etc. person, you didn't work on becoming male/female etc.)

 

That's why this argument (just like extreme patriotism etc.) makes no sense!

 

ps: The OP's arguments are somewhat better, but even they don't present a compelling reason! (I could EASILY play the game as an Asari, without trying to help humanity all the time just because I myself am human! (same for most of the other races!)...it's called role-playing and it should be considered to offer us that experience in a future Mass Effect game

 

You can take pride in what you are if you want, just as one could be ashamed of what they are if they wanted.

 

but being proud to be Canadian or American or even Human isn't about being proud of where on the planet you were born or what species you are. It has more to do with what you view being a part of that group to be about.

[DebatableBubble]

The amount of misanthropes on this site never fails to astound me.

[Rogue Unit]

The amount of misanthropes on this site never fails to astound me.

Just a bunch of crybabies who think denouncing humanity as evil and greedy makes for a better arguement as to why they should get to play as an alien in a video game.

[Cyonan]

The amount of misanthropes on this site never fails to astound me.

 

Maybe Humanity should suck less then.

 

Though I'm not one of those "no faith in Humanity" types. We have the potential, we just frequently don't achieve it.

[BatarianBob]

The amount of misanthropes on this site never fails to astound me.

 

It shouldn't.  This is a fanbase that thinks it's acceptable to make death threats against the developers over a video game, after all.

[Rogue Unit]

Maybe Humanity should suck less then.

Though I'm not one of those "no faith in Humanity" types. We have the potential, we just frequently don't achieve it.

And I'm sure you've done loads for the advancement and betterment of humanity right?

[Draining Dragon]

It shouldn't.  This is a fanbase that thinks it's acceptable to make death threats against the developers over a video game, after all.

What makes you think the fanbase collectively regards that behavior as acceptable? Because I certainly don't.

[Vortex13]

I agree entirely. Although, this thread is not meant to address the issue of "human exceptionalism" that seemed to be prevalent in ME2 and ME3. My point is that playing solely from the human perspective is not a bad thing. In fact, in many ways it's a very good thing. That being said, I would love to see a more collaborative effort among species rather than humans leading the charge every step of the way. Then again, Shepard was nothing without his/her crew, and not everybody on the Normandy was human.

 

 

The problem with this is that, to BioWare, "human exceptionalism" is synonymous with human centric, or human focused, or any other way that you want to call it. It's not so much that humans are the chief characters in the story per say (although it does get old), so much that the very rules of this universe are written to point to the fact that: "Yes, humans are intrinsically superior in every way compared to every other species in the setting be it in application of trade skills, martial tactics and abilities, or even down to a genetic level." 

 

This is the same reason why I don't particularly care for settings like Halo or Star Trek (my favorite show of that series was Deep Space Nine if that's any indication), humans are the god race. While we might get picked on by other species from time to time, the simple fact remains that the very universe of those respective settings are tailored specifically towards humanity being the resident ubermensch; whether that be through the very constructs of the Ancients being compatible only with humanity, to simply because those other aliens lack our evolved capacity for "love". And that is where the backlash comes from (IMO).

 

You have this notion; practically spelled out in many cases; where something different, something alien, is not 'correct' if it's not exactly like us. AI that truly isn't 'alive' unless it gives up its unique qualities and becomes more human, aliens that are only petulant villains until they start to act like us humans, etc. Try that same type of reasoning in the real world with any group of people different than oneself and see how well that carries over. Heck, many science fiction settings (Mass Effect included) specifically point to 'lesser races'; species that, according to the rules of that universe, are never going to amount for much of anything compared to the rest of aliens. God help you if you happen to be born as an Elcor or Hanar in Mass Effect for example. Your species is so worthless in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy that is literally left up to one single individual of the 'god-race' to deem you fit for continued existence or not.

 

Speaking of aliens, while it is generally correct that anything we can create will ultimately be viewed through a human lens; that each alien is just a human wearing a mask on some level; there are some that have more convincing masks than others. Take the Rachni or the ME 1 versions of the Elcor and Hanar as an example compared to the Asari or Batarians; sure they might be all ultimately relatable in some capacity to a human's sensibilities but one group is decidedly more 'alien' than the other. You can easily replace any instance of an Asari like Liara, or a Turian like Garus with a human and practically zero elements change, but try the same thing with a Rachni, or a Hanar (before they became the running joke race of the series) and you'll run into a lot of conflicting issues based on how they are depicted.

[Wulfram]

I think one of the valuable things sci-fi (and speculative fiction more broadly) can do is offer an outsiders perspective on ourselves. Even if its not actually as "alien" as all that. Its

But sticking to a human protagonist is a legitimate artistic decision, sure. Though I don't think the games really did a very good job of it. In fact, the "humano-centrism" kind of undermines the human perspective - it's hard to feel like the newcomer/outsiders when humans are already everywhere, doing everything and running everything.

[ShadyKat]

This has always been a topic many on these forums seem to despise. They don't want to play as a human. They didn't like how "human-centric" ME2 and ME3 became. There are so many other species worth exploring and playing that we shouldn't limit ourselves to the human experience.
 
I'll tell you why that understanding is wrong and why BioWare will never endorse it. Mass Effect doesn't make any sense without the human lens. There is nothing to ground us in this franchise without having some form or relatability. Mass Effect has also always been about the underdog story and trying to make something out of oneself.
 
MEA may not be a sequel to the ME trilogy, but it's a spiritual successor in every sense of the word as it's going back to the fundamentals of what Mass Effect stands for: Exploration, Discovery, Survival, and the Human Experience.
 
While Mass Effect may have many other species and deals with intergalactic issues, it's still very much a human tale. Mac Walters has already stated MEA will maintain that understanding, and it doesn't appear that Mass Effect will ever change course.
 
I don't personally see anything wrong with that. On the contrary, I think Mass Effect is far more interesting understanding these other lifeforms through the human eye, rather than BioWare trying to make some compelling tale from a perspective we can never understand or fully appreciate. We are human. It only makes sense to embrace that to further enhance the storytelling in Mass Effect.

I understand why a human protagonist is used, but not buying the fact that the entire series needs to be human centric. That feels like a cheap and easy cop out. You can tell a story that is shown from multiple different perspectives.










With that said, there is no point to have other races in the series if it will always be about humans and humanity only. Just leave all the other races in the Milky way and all new aliens are humanities enemies. But Bioware is afraid to ****** off the fans of the original series aliens. Wisely so, because if they were left out, I would have zero plans to buy Andromeda. The "human" story has been done to death.

[CronoDragoon]

I fall more on the practical side of the implementation of multiple races. I don't want BioWare dedicating those resources to redundant content, like having to animate a turian's mandibles into a kiss for romances. Spend that time animating more side content. Spend the VA budget adding more NPCs. Stuff like that.