Each faction's major organizations are pretty much 100% their own species. Like, you won't have a turian, asari or human in the STG.
In that case, such things no longer apply. All races are part of the same group in this new setting and are working together for the exact same thing.
No I don't understand your argument. Largely because I don't agree with the fundamental pieces of your argument.
I assure you, I can imagine what the Krogan would feel towards the Turians and the Salarians through the fictitious use of the genophage, just as easily as the fictitious first contact war. I can understand The Batarians slow decline and struggle for social acceptance as their long held customs are found to be highly distasteful to other established cultures. I can understand how others can see the position of privilege the Asari are in and how some Asari are conscious of it and others are completely unaware. I can understand the joint feelings of guilt, embarrassment, and victimization the Quarians would feel in the many years since the morning war.
The different species all have a different appearance, biology and history. But they could effectively be human looking with these different histories, they will never be truly alien, that is just how they have been written. At the same time they do not need to water anything down at all. I know for a fact I can imagine myself in the shoes of most of the main main aliens. Allowing us to experience these stories, and play a character with a different perspective, would be a very nice feature for a lot of people. Yes there is a higher cost to this, I am not arguing that. But in my, and many others opinions, it would be a very worthwhile feature.
You "don't agree with the fundamental pieces of [my] argument" because you confuse empathy with understanding and feeling. You can never know what it means to be a krogan, turian, or salarian. You may think you know, but your own perception of things will always be clouded and biased by the mere fact of being human. I'd highly recommend you read Plato's "The Cave," and you will understand how very little you or anyone else truly knows. An impression or belief of knowledge is not actual, definitive knowledge.
Again, you have only known these species through the human lens. Your understanding of their mannerisms, culture, and behavior is purely funneled through this human bias. To truly say you'd "know" and be able to immerse yourself in these other perspectives is erroneous and false. The only thing you would be doing is subconsciously subjecting your own "understanding" on these species while you play one. You can never truly separate these species from your human bias because they were written from the start with an intentional human bias.
By just turning these aliens into humans defeats the entire purpose of even having them, which is why BioWare should never attempt to make an alien a protagonist. They would immediately invalidate the credibility of the alien and cheapen it by being forced to make it more human to make it relatable. That would please very few, if anyone, and would have the same superficial and pointless effect races had in DAI. I'd rather maintain the integrity of these various species rather than make them into human emulations just because I want to play as a turian or a quarian.
If these fictional races are so alien we cannot understand or feel them, then how was Bioware, who consists entirely of humans, able to create them in the first place? If a writer can get into the alien's mind enough to write them, a player can get into their mind enough to roleplay them.
That would please very few, if anyone, and would have the same superficial and pointless effect races had in DAI. I'd rather maintain the integrity of these various species rather than make them into human emulations just because I want to have play as a turian or a quarian.
That's only because Bioware took everything that worked in DAO and threw it in the trash. They tried to make Dragon Effect with DA2, and were probably continuing full speed ahead with the next game when the backlash hit. It didn't work because multiple races are bad, it didn't work because the implementation was bad.
You "don't agree with the fundamental pieces of [my] argument" because you confuse empathy with understanding and feeling.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
So no, they are not the ones confusing terms. You cannot have empathy without being able to understand and share feelings, since that is literally what is required to experience empathy.
That's only because Bioware took everything that worked in DAO and threw it in the trash. They tried to make Dragon Effect with DA2, and were probably continuing full speed ahead with the next game when the backlash hit. It didn't work because multiple races are bad, it didn't work because the implementation was bad.
Not to mention that the race option in DAI was a late addition, added when they were given an extra year of development. So if they were involved from the beginning, the issues some people had with them would most likely have been nonexistent.
You "don't agree with the fundamental pieces of [my] argument" because you confuse empathy with understanding and feeling. You can never know what it means to be a krogan, turian, or salarian. You may think you know, but your own perception of things will always be clouded and biased by the mere fact of being human. I'd highly recommend you read Plato's "The Cave," and you will understand how very little you or anyone else truly knows. An impression or belief of knowledge is not actual, definitive knowledge.
Again, you have only known these species through the human lens. Your understanding of their mannerisms, culture, and behavior is purely funneled through this human bias. To truly say you'd "know" and be able to immerse yourself in these other perspectives is erroneous and false. The only thing you would be doing is subconsciously subjecting your own "understanding" on these species while you play one. You can never truly separate these species from your human bias because they were written from the start with an intentional human bias.
By just turning these aliens into humans defeats the entire purpose of even having them, which is why BioWare should never attempt to make an alien a protagonist. They would immediately invalidate the credibility of the alien and cheapen it by being forced to make it more human to make it relatable. That would please very few, if anyone, and would have the same superficial and pointless effect races had in DAI. I'd rather maintain the integrity of these various species rather than make them into human emulations just because I want to play as a turian or a quarian.
This sounds entirely stupid. By this logic we should have never played a badass soldier either because probably 1% of us here have been soldiers before.
"How could the vast majority of players, who are normal boring people, wasting their freetime on video games ever understand, truly understand what it means to be a soldier. They can't. They will always see everything through the non-soldier lens and be biased by the mere fact that they aren't soldiers. Truly one can only ever make video games where the protagonist is a normal human with a boring to somewhat decent job and never goes on any adventure."
If these fictional races are so alien we cannot understand or feel them, then how was Bioware, who consists entirely of humans, able to create them in the first place? If a writer can get into the alien's mind enough to write them, a player can get into their mind enough to roleplay them.
The problem with your statement is your impression that BioWare has done a good job of creating these aliens. Truth be told, they have not with most of these aliens. Examples of hanar, elcor, and rachni are aliens who actually are quite unique and do provide a very different perspective from the humanoid turians, quarians, salarians, krogans, and asari. Of course, it is the latter aliens that are more popular because people don't realize they subconsciously prefer aliens who are more relatable because they are virtually humans. The fact people even call for relationships and romance with these aliens shows little distinction between an alien and a human.
Again, by trying to make another alien the central focus of the story, you merely will humanize it and take away what makes it alien in nature. As I've already stated time and time again, Mass Effect is about the human experience and how it views these various lifeforms in the galaxy. To get rid of that understanding is to shred away what makes Mass Effect what it is.
That's only because Bioware took everything that worked in DAO and threw it in the trash. They tried to make Dragon Effect with DA2, and were probably continuing full speed ahead with the next game when the backlash hit. It didn't work because multiple races are bad, it didn't work because the implementation was bad.
Except, multiple races didn't even really work in DAO. In fact, the origin stories were incredibly impractical, difficult to implement, and thus BioWare will never do them again because it severely limited what they could do in the rest of the game. The various races virtually didn't matter after the origin story because all of the specialized content happened at the very start of the game. DAI tried to avoid that by providing specialized content for each race throughout the game, but it still did not work.
Whether it would work or not really isn't the question. The point is BioWare should never do it well because it's too costly and other areas of the game would suffer for such a focus. Not to mention, Dragon Age is much more about the various nations and less so about the particular races in play. The inclusion of dwarves, elves, and qunari did little to improve DAI, especially considering each had such a minuscule effect on the game.
The problem with your statement is your impression that BioWare has done a good job of creating these aliens. Truth be told, they have not with most of these aliens. Examples of hanar, elcor, and rachni are aliens who actually are quite unique and do provide a very different perspective from the humanoid turians, quarians, salarians, krogans, and asari. Of course, it is the latter aliens that are more popular because people don't realize they subconsciously prefer aliens who are more relatable because they are virtually humans. The fact people even call for relationships and romance with these aliens shows little distinction between an alien and a human.
That doesn't answer my question. The aliens of Mass Effect's alieness aside, the fact that the writers can get into the race's mind to create them means the players can get into their minds to roleplay them in as equal a capacity as the writer's depict them.
Again, by trying to make another alien the central focus of the story, you merely will humanize it and take away what makes it alien in nature. As I've already stated time and time again, Mass Effect is about the human experience and how it views these various lifeforms in the galaxy. To get rid of that understanding is to shred away what makes Mass Effect what it is.
You can still have that. We already do. Human NPCs would still supply that human experience and views, just like how the past games did it humans and aliens both. This time, the only difference is the player could see it through another view which would actually shed light on the human experience that wouldn't be seen through the eyes of a human.
Empathy: the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
So no, they are not the ones confusing terms. You cannot have empathy without being able to understand and share feelings, since that is literally what is required to experience empathy.
Incorrect. Empathy is expressing comfort to someone who has experienced something you have not. The term you are looking for is sympathy, which is actually being able to understand and relate to the person you are sympathizing with. A perfect example is someone who is empathetic of someone suffering from a broken bone. You can never actually understand what that person is going through, but you can provide comfort and try to help in any way you can. It is only someone who has actually suffered from a similar incident of a broken bone that would be able to sympathize, and thus be able to relate and understand the person.
This sounds entirely stupid. By this logic we should have never played a badass soldier either because probably 1% of us here have been soldiers before.
"How could the vast majority of players, who are normal boring people, wasting their freetime on video games ever understand, truly understand what it means to be a soldier. They can't. They will always see everything through the non-soldier lens and be biased by the mere fact that they aren't soldiers. Truly one can only ever make video games where the protagonist is a normal human with a boring to somewhat decent job and never goes on any adventure."
Starting off with insults is never a good way to make a retort to an argument. Your comparison is erroneous and inaccurate for the simple fact that you are comparing apples to oranges. This is a discussion about humans trying to understand aliens, which they physically cannot for a multitude of reasons. Humans trying to understand other humans, irrespective of their profession, is an entirely different discussion and not the same thing. I recognize the subtleties can be difficult and that this discussion can be quite confusing.
Incorrect. Empathy is expressing comfort to someone who has experienced something you have not. The term you are looking for is sympathy, which is actually being able to understand and relate to the person you are sympathizing with. A perfect example is someone who is empathetic of someone suffering from a broken bone You can never actually understand what that person is going through, but you can provide comfort and try to help in any way you can. It is only someone who has actually suffered from a similar incident of a broken bone that would be able to sympathize, and thus be able to relate and understand the person.
No, it's not. Every single dictionary disagrees with you about what empathy means.
Your broken bone example is describing sympathy more than empathy.
Except, multiple races didn't even really work in DAO. In fact, the origin stories were incredibly impractical, difficult to implement, and thus BioWare will never do them again because it severely limited what they could do in the rest of the game. The various races virtually didn't matter after the origin story because all of the specialized content happened at the very start of the game. DAI tried to avoid that by providing specialized content for each race throughout the game, but it still did not work.
Whether it would work or not really isn't the question. The point is BioWare should never do it well because it's too costly and other areas of the game would suffer for such a focus. Not to mention, Dragon Age is much more about the various nations and less so about the particular races in play. The inclusion of dwarves, elves, and qunari did little to improve DAI, especially considering each had such a minuscule effect on the game.
That's not really my problem. I'm neither an EA accountant or a Bioware game designer. I am not going to take "but it's hard" as an acceptable excuse to go "rah rah humanity, everyone else get lost" yet again.
All I am is someone who saw something that worked - a game that took playable races and at least gave them something, one game that didn't and was generally unsatisfying, and another that gave it a half sort-of-try and gave up.
Hell, they can include multiplayer - which includes animations for other races and all, but they can't do a damned thing for SP?
Starting off with insults is never a good way to make a retort to an argument. Your comparison is erroneous and inaccurate for the simple fact that you are comparing apples to oranges. This is a discussion about humans trying to understand aliens, which they physically cannot for a multitude of reasons. Humans trying to understand other humans, irrespective of their profession, is an entirely different discussion and not the same thing. I recognize the subtleties can be difficult and that this discussion can be quite confusing.
It would be an entirely different discussion if the aliens in ME were actually anything else than humans with various kind of body-paint or weird natural armor slapped over them. But the rare species (Rachni, Elcor and Haar) aside ME aliens were designed to be just like humans on an emotional level. So it would be just as easy to understand them as an human with another profession. No alieness would be lost by making them playable, because they were never truly alien to begin with.
Also I do apologize for the insult. That was uncalled for.
BioWare are so very repetitive of their human-centric storytelling instead of being flexible. Are they lazy or something?
Bioware games. Made by humans, for humans.
BioWare are so very repetitive of their human-centric storytelling instead of being flexible. Are they lazy or something?
Just take a shot every time corruption / mind control is a plot device. Between DA and ME, I think it's death via alcohol poisoning.
But look @ Elder Scrolls and they're more diverse and have stories that's not focusing on not just humans but everyone.Bioware games. Made by humans, for humans.
Just take a shot every time corruption / mind control is a plot device. Between DA and ME, I think it's death via alcohol poisoning.
You'd be dead before even being able to play trough one class story in SWTOR.
But look @ Elder Scrolls and they're more diverse and have stories that's not focusing on not just humans but everyone.
Elder Scrolls have stories?
Elder Scrolls have stories?
Sure. Not particularily good ones. But they are there somewhere.
The problem with your statement is your impression that BioWare has done a good job of creating these aliens. Truth be told, they have not with most of these aliens. Examples of hanar, elcor, and rachni are aliens who actually are quite unique and do provide a very different perspective from the humanoid turians, quarians, salarians, krogans, and asari. Of course, it is the latter aliens that are more popular because people don't realize they subconsciously prefer aliens who are more relatable because they are virtually humans. The fact people even call for relationships and romance with these aliens shows little distinction between an alien and a human.
Again, by trying to make another alien the central focus of the story, you merely will humanize it and take away what makes it alien in nature. As I've already stated time and time again, Mass Effect is about the human experience and how it views these various lifeforms in the galaxy. To get rid of that understanding is to shred away what makes Mass Effect what it is.
That's basically admitting that there's no real narrative or writing choice to avoid making alien races playable, beyond the fact that the only-human perspective, rather than a narrative "greater good", is just the last defense that keeps alive the illusion that the races in ME are not rubber-forehead aliens. But they are, noticeably, and Mass Effect is that too. The whole series and setting is a reconstruction of many old sci-fi tropes, including that one.
Given that it's those human-like races which people were asking to play, it also means that some already saw through the (very weak) narrative device or don't care at all. It boils down to a market choice between a limited perspective that offers a not-very-consistent illusion of alien otherness and no extra gameplay or narrative choices versus several perspectives that offer a not-very-consistent reality of alien otherness and more gameplay and narrative choices. I know which one I would like.
I can agree (or not) on the merits of the different ways of portraying non-human races in fiction (not always the narrative goal is the otherness itself; more often than not, the fiction of otherness is a tool to explore human cultural and philosophical constructs in a narratively controlled environment), but since ME:A starts a different setting and story, it would have been the best moment to introduce new playable races. Since it didn't happen (a totally respectable writing choice, but not a holy cow), I guess it won't be until the next trilogy that the chance will appear again.
The problem with your statement is your impression that BioWare has done a good job of creating these aliens. Truth be told, they have not with most of these aliens. Examples of hanar, elcor, and rachni are aliens who actually are quite unique and do provide a very different perspective from the humanoid turians, quarians, salarians, krogans, and asari. Of course, it is the latter aliens that are more popular because people don't realize they subconsciously prefer aliens who are more relatable because they are virtually humans. The fact people even call for relationships and romance with these aliens shows little distinction between an alien and a human.
Which ties back to the whole 'human exceptionalism' = human focused trend with BioWare.
Unique, 'alien' aliens like the (ME 1) Hanar and Elcor, the Rachni, and the Thorian are in the vast minority of aliens present, and in many cases the player can choose to wipe out entire populations of these species with zero ramifications; not even a faint tugging at the heartstrings.
The writers have no qualms with turning the different species into shallow, one dimensional jokes either because they aren't as good as us humans and human-like aliens.
This is further compounded by the fact that as BioWare is killing off or rendering moot any of the truly 'alien' elements in the setting, they aren't replacing them with anything similar; it's a trend that follows them in any of their franchises. Just look at the first title in the Mass Effect or Dragon Age series and then compare it to the latest release. Any non-human parts of the narrative are slowly killed off, swept under the rug, or even transformed into become more human-like until you are left with a universe that is inhabited solely by us and things that practically share our exact perceptions. Of all the new aliens that BioWare introduced over the course of the ME trilogy only one was fairly 'alien' (the ME 2 Geth) and even then, that was quickly remedied for the last game, everything else has been more humans with rubber masks.
When BioWare states things like making ME:A more human focused, I become leery of the narrative. How much of the 'alien' element are we going to see in the new game, if any at all?
That doesn't answer my question. The aliens of Mass Effect's alieness aside, the fact that the writers can get into the race's mind to create them means the players can get into their minds to roleplay them in as equal a capacity as the writer's depict them.
F***ing this. The whole "We couldn't possibly understand or appreciate them" is racist BS.
But look @ Elder Scrolls and they're more diverse and have stories that's not focusing on not just humans but everyone.
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