145 réponses à ce sujet

[maia0407]

I think I agree mostly with the premise if the OP to a certain extent but come to a different conclusion. Most of the organic sentient alien species in the ME games, with the exception of the Rachni, are reskinned humans with exaggerated human traits that define their society. The Krogan are aggressiveness on steroids, the Turians militaristic, Asari are sexuality, Salarians are logic, etc. Of course, you will find other traits within these societies but it is specific human traits taken to the extreme that give these societies the illusion of being alien.

Most sci-fI uses this method to characterize alien societies out of necessity; it's probably impossible to step outside of our human mind and write something truly alien. The closest I've seen to a truly alien alien is Peter F Hamilton's 'Morning Light Mountain' in the Commonwealth Saga. This alien had a stationary centralized mind and sent off pieces of itself to work. It was xenophobic and dangerous. At any rate, hive minds, artificials or minds without emotion are about as alien as we get in our sci-fi.

When people ask to play as aliens, I suspect they aren't asking to play as the non-humanoid hive mind Rachni. Nobody really relates to them even if they find the species interesting. Most people probably want to play as a humanoid relatable Asari or Krogan,etc. There's nothing wrong with that. It's fun to play a character with a different perspective and look. But, again, we're really just asking to play a human with exaggerated human emotions and blue skin.

With that in mind, I think it is possible for Bioware to allow us to play as aliens without hurting the series. Andromeda would have been the perfect setting to allow us to play various Milky Way species. It would have reinforced how alien we are to Andromeda while emphasizing the Milkers common bond.

On a related note, I think it would be fun to play as a non-humanoid hive mind like the Rachni. I would enjoy getting a feel for how their body and mind operates; what advantages and disadvantages are there? How does this effect your perspective? I wouldn't want an entire game of it but a short segment could be fun.

[Teabaggin Krogan]

 

I dealt with it a long time ago and I'm fine with that. I was merely saying why I don't take pride in being Human =P

 

..

I don't see the need to change what I am just because I don't like what others of the same species as me are doing, I'm simply not going to be proud of it.

 

I have more pride in being Canadian than I do Human, because being Canadian actually means something to me.

 

So you don't take any pride in being human and yet you are proud of being part of a human construct? Isn't being Canadian pretty much a specialized subset of being human, so wouldn't that be kinda hypocritical? Also the whole not being proud of humanity aspect seems like generalized prejudice when humanity is rather diverse and extremely varied in it's actions and potential, to the point of being polar opposites to each other.  Seems unfair to judge all of humanity based on the shortcomings of some of their members. 

 

I say emotion is emotion because my current estimation is that any organic species capable of higher thought processes will likely have the same array of emotions. My theory would be that "human emotion" isn't really a thing, but we currently only have 1 species with those higher thought processes to work with right now so we can't exactly prove or disprove that theory right now.

 

It would depend on the AI, because AI is simply code. If the programmer wrote the AI to have emotions, it would at the very least emulate those emotions. If it's supposed to be a being of pure logic, I can work with that and of course such a character would not have desires or opinions or interests. They would have what the most logical course of action is..

 

I don't think so, our emotions are part of our evolutionary aspect and have been molded by the way we have evolved and learned to survive through the ages. An alien species may have an entirely different set of emotions or rather a lack of them depending on their own evolutionary patterns, approach to life and what we may call their culture. They may not even view the world in the same way nor hold such principles and notions of life as we do. 

 

For example and alien species that procreates by self replication need not have any concept of the notion of love. To make a more down to earth example, a being of higher thought process that follows for example, the mating patterns of a spider where the female eats the male after breeding may have no inkling as to what is love and courtship in the way we perceive it. In fact it would be a rather vain assumption to assume that such trivial human emotions as love or the feeling of morality such as being good or evil are universal in nature.

 

I think this would be more beautifully explained by H.P Lovecraft from this excerpt of a letter by him to his editor;

 

Now all my tales are based on the fundamental premise that common human laws and interests and emotions have no validity or significance in the vast cosmos-at-large. To me there is nothing but puerility in a tale in which the human form—and the local human passions and conditions and standards—are depicted as native to other worlds or other universes. To achieve the essence of real externality, whether of time or space or dimension, one must forget that such things as organic life, good and evil, love and hate, and all such local attributes of a negligible and temporary race called mankind, have any existence at all. Only the human scenes and characters must have human qualities. These must be handled with unsparing realism, (not catch-penny romanticism) but when we cross the line to the boundless and hideous unknown—the shadow-haunted Outside—we must remember to leave our humanity—and terrestrialism at the threshold.

[Vortex13]

I think I agree mostly with the premise if the OP to a certain extent but come to a different conclusion. Most of the organic sentient alien species in the ME games, with the exception of the Rachni, are reskinned humans with exaggerated human traits that define their society. The Krogan are aggressiveness on steroids, the Turians militaristic, Asari are sexuality, Salarians are logic, etc. Of course, you will find other traits within these societies but it is specific human traits taken to the extreme that give these societies the illusion of being alien.

Most sci-fI uses this method to characterize alien societies out of necessity; it's probably impossible to step outside of our human mind and write something truly alien. The closest I've seen to a truly alien alien is Peter F Hamilton's 'Morning Light Mountain' in the Commonwealth Saga. This alien had a stationary centralized mind and sent off pieces of itself to work. It was xenophobic and dangerous. At any rate, hive minds, artificials or minds without emotion are about as alien as we get in our sci-fi.

When people ask to play as aliens, I suspect they aren't asking to play as the non-humanoid hive mind Rachni. Nobody really relates to them even if they find the species interesting. Most people probably want to play as a humanoid relatable Asari or Krogan,etc. There's nothing wrong with that. It's fun to play a character with a different perspective and look. But, again, we're really just asking to play a human with exaggerated human emotions and blue skin.

With that in mind, I think it is possible for Bioware to allow us to play as aliens without hurting the series. Andromeda would have been the perfect setting to allow us to play various Milky Way species. It would have reinforced how alien we are to Andromeda while emphasizing the Milkers common bond.

On a related note, I think it would be fun to play as a non-humanoid hive mind like the Rachni. I would enjoy getting a feel for how their body and mind operates; what advantages and disadvantages are there? How does this effect your perspective? I wouldn't want an entire game of it but a short segment could be fun.

 

 

I would love to play as a Rachni personally, but then again I'm pretty sure that I would be about the only person in that demographic. 

 

 

Also, I don't think that labeling the Rachni as a hive mind is correct. They operate in a matter similar to an ant or bee hive, but they aren't a hive mind. The individual drones and varied soldiers do have distinct thoughts, its just that they are structured to suit the needs of the colony above all else.  

 

If anything is a true hive mind in the series, its the Geth or Reapers (IMO).

[EpicNewb]

What human trait/s do the Drell exaggerate?

I think I agree mostly with the premise if the OP to a certain extent but come to a different conclusion. Most of the organic sentient alien species in the ME games, with the exception of the Rachni, are reskinned humans with exaggerated human traits that define their society. The Krogan are aggressiveness on steroids, the Turians militaristic, Asari are sexuality, Salarians are logic, etc. Of course, you will find other traits within these societies but it is specific human traits taken to the extreme that give these societies the illusion of being alien.

[Darth_Atreyu]

For me being human-only is the worst decision Bioware made for this game. We are in the perfect opportunity right now, since all races are now in the same boat, metaphorically and literally.

Also, I love that they brought race options back to Dragon Age in DAI. 

 

We can understand the aliens perfectly. One of the big things in Mass Effect is how universal "human nature" is. 

You proved his point.

[Darth_Atreyu]

I'll always bring a little bit of my own perspective into it, which is that of a Human, but I can act pretty alien when staying in-character.

 

Point is, I can relate to characters that aren't Human.

 

 

Oh I don't act like a monster.

 

I dealt with it a long time ago and I'm fine with that. I was merely saying why I don't take pride in being Human =P

What does acting alien mean exactly? if you are "acting alien" it means it's something that can come naturally to you, which in turn means that it's not alien.

[Mistic]

What human trait/s do the Drell exaggerate?

 

The Drell backstory basically says it's what would have happened to humanity hadn't we discovered interstellar travel before we ruined our planet for good. Thane even quotes Thomas Hobbes on the state of the planet now. And the human construct they explore is basically a fantasy of lots of refugees being taken to a world of pious good samaritans and adapting to their new home even if it means some people may discriminate them while some of them suffer incurable diseases because of the change of environment.

 

A very human history, in fact.

 

What does acting alien mean exactly?

 

I think here it means "Mass Effect alien", which doesn't have the same definition as "alien" in the dictionary. People are trying to conflate the two, but this is Mass Effect we're talking about, not fiction in general and certainly not xenosociology.

[maia0407]

What human trait/s do the Drell exaggerate?

Hmmm, hadn't considered the Drell. Guess they were a bit forgettable to me. Enhanced memory seems to be their exaggerated trait. They are recognizably human-like in most other aspects.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

But there are some people already complaining that they don't want the next Elder Scrolls game to take place in an elf or beast race land. These people basically try to ruin series for people who want to play as something besides humans. As if there aren't hundreds of games made a year that allow them to play as humans. Not too many that allow you to be something more unique and alien.

I just don't see what's the big deal if adding playable races in the SP of ME series, BioWare should have multicultural writers and not just sexually diverse writers to have a diversity in a game, and made alien races more believable to play with. I think they're either don't want to or just don't want to change.

[The Elder King]

I just don't see what's the big deal if adding playable races in the SP of ME series, BioWare should have multicultural writers and not just sexually diverse writers to have a diversity in a game, and made alien races more believable to play with. I think they're either don't want to or just don't want to change.

The current races are plently believable to roleplay as. Bioware simply envisioned the IP to have a human protagonist, and they seem to not want to change this, for good or worse.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

The current races are plently believable to roleplay as. Bioware simply envisioned the IP to have a human protagonist, and they seem to not want to change this, for good or worse.

You just can't get enough of me can't you?? You persistent I'll give you that.

[The Elder King]

You just can't get enough of me can't you?? You persistent I'll give you that.

You're flattering yourself. Or joking again, I don't really care.

[Revan Reborn]

There have been a lot of great points brought up. Again, the truth of the matter is I don't believe most folks actually want to play an "alien." They want to play a human with another face. To me, that's is incredibly dangerous as you risk diluting even further the various other species that are already far too human in their psychology and behavior. Especially with Andromeda, where we are no longer in the Milky Way, it makes even less sense for new aliens to be almost identical to humans.

 

This is why I have argued time and time again why it's a bad idea to play as an alien. What I want to do is preserve the diversity of aliens and what makes them interesting and different from humans. If BioWare was forced to make any of these species a playable protagonist, then all that would happen is a forced human perspective being injected into these aliens.

 

The human perspective cannot be removed as that is the very cornerstone of Mass Effect. That is what the franchise was built on and BioWare has given no indication that is going to change nor should it. Mass Effect simply would not make sense if it is not told through the human scope. Even though they haven't confirmed this will be a new trilogy, Aaryn Flynn has articulated that there is enough content and hints for there to be several more games after Mass Effect Andromeda.

 

The best way to preserve the diversity of these aliens is to allow them to remain as supporting casts or a backdrop to the greater galaxy. I agree wholeheartedly that BioWare made design mistakes by diminishing the more interesting aliens and by placing too much focus on the more human aliens. With this spiritual successor to ME1, I'd like to see them go back to their roots with more foreign, alien designs that are less familiar and relatable for us.

 

If all the new aliens are merely humans wearing masks, why should I or anyone else care about them? We already have plenty of aliens that are virtually human. Why make them even more human? People claim they don't want to play as a human, but in truth that's exactly what they want to play as. They just don't realize it.

[Xilizhra]

There have been a lot of great points brought up. Again, the truth of the matter is I don't believe most folks actually want to play an "alien." They want to play a human with another face. To me, that's is incredibly dangerous as you risk diluting even further the various other species that are already far too human in their psychology and behavior. Especially with Andromeda, where we are no longer in the Milky Way, it makes even less sense for new aliens to be almost identical to humans.

 

This is why I have argued time and time again why it's a bad idea to play as an alien. What I want to do is preserve the diversity of aliens and what makes them interesting and different from humans. If BioWare were forced to make any of these species a playable protagonist, then all that would happen is a forced human perspective being injected into these aliens.

 

The human perspective cannot be removed as that is the very cornerstone of Mass Effect. That is what the franchise was built on and BioWare has given no indication that is going to change nor should it. Mass Effect simply would not make sense if it is not told through the human scope. Even though they haven't confirmed this will be a new trilogy, Aaryn Flynn has articulated that there is enough content and hints for there to be several more games after Mass Effect Andromeda.

 

The best way to preserve the diversity of these aliens is to allow them to remain as supporting casts or a backdrop to the greater galaxy. I agree wholeheartedly that BioWare made design mistakes by diminishing the more interesting aliens and by placing too much focus on the more human aliens. With this spiritual successor to ME1, I'd like to see them go back to their roots with more foreign, alien designs that are less familiar and relatable for us.

 

If all the new aliens are merely humans wearing masks, why should I or anyone else care about them? We already have plenty of aliens that are virtually human. Why make them even more human? People claim they don't want to play as a human, but in truth that's exactly what they want to play as. They just don't realize it.

The other species were created with a human perspective, how would playing them change anything? Additionally, it's not that hard if you have sufficient cultural immersion. Granted, doing this might be tricky, but having the right cultural background presented to you in an origin story helps a heck of a lot for getting into the right mindset.

 

Additionally, you seem to hold a "no true Scotsman" mentality towards aliens with the belief that aliens that are too close to human are inherently worthless. I personally highly disagree. It might not be very hard sci-fi, but even differences that aren't profound psychological ones can be interesting pieces to add to a character.

[Revan Reborn]

The other species were created with a human perspective, how would playing them change anything? Additionally, it's not that hard if you have sufficient cultural immersion. Granted, doing this might be tricky, but having the right cultural background presented to you in an origin story helps a heck of a lot for getting into the right mindset.

 

Additionally, you seem to hold a "no true Scotsman" mentality towards aliens with the belief that aliens that are too close to human are inherently worthless. I personally highly disagree. It might not be very hard sci-fi, but even differences that aren't profound psychological ones can be interesting pieces to add to a character.

My point is by allowing us to play as these species, you merely continue to make them more human and less alien. Mass Effect is about discovering new worlds, new alien civilizations, and exploring the stars through the eyes of humanity. Our perspective on these various aliens is already through a human lens. Why would we want to further subject them to humanization by making them the protagonist of the game? As far as cultural immersion, that's hard to pull off when we have left the Milky Way and are in a new galaxy. Every species on the ARK is likely going to be living under similar conditions, so there likely won't be much in terms of cultural beliefs to separate one from the other.

 

I actually don't mind aliens having some traits of humans, specifically ones that were in close proximity in the Milky Way galaxy. What I don't want is humans with an alien appearance, which many of the main races in Mass Effect are dangerously approaching this reality. If everybody in the Milky Way and Andromeda is essentially just human, that severely hampers and limits the sense of discovery and wonder in the Mass Effect universe. Star Trek already has plenty of human clones that diluted that franchise decades ago. I'd rather Mass Effect not follow a similar path because it's just more interesting, in my opinion, to encounter aliens that aren't like us. Frankly, I think it's more realistic and more compelling from a storytelling perspective.

[Xilizhra]

My point is by allowing us to play as these species, you merely continue to make them more human and less alien. Mass Effect is about discovering new worlds, new alien civilizations, and exploring the stars through the eyes of humanity. Our perspective on these various aliens is already through a human lens. Why would we want to further subject them to humanization by making them the protagonist of the game? As far as cultural immersion, that's hard to pull off when we have left the Milky Way and are in a new galaxy. Every species on the ARK is likely going to be living under similar conditions, so there likely won't be much in terms of cultural beliefs to separate one from the other.

You don't think new human civilizations can be exotic? And these have enough differences to make them moreso. Furthermore, the exploration does not need to, and has never needed to, be only using a human perspective. The lens can be adjusted.

 

 

I actually don't mind aliens having some traits of humans, specifically ones that were in close proximity in the Milky Way galaxy. What I don't want is humans with an alien appearance, which many of the main races in Mass Effect are dangerously approaching this reality. If everybody in the Milky Way and Andromeda is essentially just human, that severely hampers and limits the sense of discovery and wonder in the Mass Effect universe. Star Trek already has plenty of human clones that diluted that franchise decades ago. I'd rather Mass Effect not follow a similar path because it's just more interesting, in my opinion, to encounter aliens that aren't like us. Frankly, I think it's more realistic and more compelling from a storytelling perspective.

I don't see how that matters, as we wouldn't be playing Andromeda natives anyway.

[Cyonan]

So you don't take any pride in being human and yet you are proud of being part of a human construct? Isn't being Canadian pretty much a specialized subset of being human, so wouldn't that be kinda hypocritical? Also the whole not being proud of humanity aspect seems like generalized prejudice when humanity is rather diverse and extremely varied in it's actions and potential, to the point of being polar opposites to each other.  Seems unfair to judge all of humanity based on the shortcomings of some of their members. 

 

It's not like I'm making statements like "all Humans are terrible people". I'm saying I looked at Humanity as a whole(good and bad) and didn't feel proud of what I saw but if you look at specific groups maybe there is a little bit there.

 

 

I don't think so, our emotions are part of our evolutionary aspect and have been molded by the way we have evolved and learned to survive through the ages. An alien species may have an entirely different set of emotions or rather a lack of them depending on their own evolutionary patterns, approach to life and what we may call their culture. They may not even view the world in the same way nor hold such principles and notions of life as we do. 

 

For example and alien species that procreates by self replication need not have any concept of the notion of love. To make a more down to earth example, a being of higher thought process that follows for example, the mating patterns of a spider where the female eats the male after breeding may have no inkling as to what is love and courtship in the way we perceive it. In fact it would be a rather vain assumption to assume that such trivial human emotions as love or the feeling of morality such as being good or evil are universal in nature.

 

I think this would be more beautifully explained by H.P Lovecraft from this excerpt of a letter by him to his editor;

 

I'm not saying that they wont be incredibly different, simply that they'll still experience the same array of emotions we do.

 

As Humans we already have the concept of love that isn't specific to a mate. A parent can love their children, or a person can love their family in general or even really close friends.

 

A spider doesn't count because the spider doesn't exhibit higher thought processes. I'm not saying it's universal, I'm saying that it seems likely that any being with those higher thought processes has the same array of emotions.

 

but what they do with them or what triggers them is going to widely vary based on a lot of factors. Those things aren't even consistent among Humans.

 

What does acting alien mean exactly? if you are "acting alien" it means it's something that can come naturally to you, which in turn means that it's not alien.

 

It's possible to mimic a set of behaviour based on criteria given by lore without thinking that way coming naturally to you.

[Mistic]

The best way to preserve the diversity of these aliens is to allow them to remain as supporting casts or a backdrop to the greater galaxy. I agree wholeheartedly that BioWare made design mistakes by diminishing the more interesting aliens and by placing too much focus on the more human aliens. With this spiritual successor to ME1, I'd like to see them go back to their roots with more foreign, alien designs that are less familiar and relatable for us.

 

Although I agree that more alien "aliens" would be certainly welcome, I think you are idealizing past ME games too much. There has never been a golden Arcadia of a Bioware who took alien otherness as seriously as a hard sci-fi fan. The rubber forehead human-like aliens are a staple of the setting since the beginning.

 

As I said, if the only way to preserve the illusion of alien otherness is the only-human playable perspective, then it wasn't a illusion worth to preserve to begin with.

 

If all the new aliens are merely humans wearing masks, why should I or anyone else care about them?

 

Because we care about humans who are different from us, I think.

 

There is indeed a narrative theory that says we can only understand our own point of view. That writers can imagine and think whatever they want, but in the end it's a dishonesty. True honest writing can only come from personal experience and true understanding of others is impossible. At best, we can only listen to what they tell us to enrichen our perspective. And if the readers can't, logically the writers can't either. The most strict sense of that theory would mean authors can only create autobiographical pieces. Forget about fantasy, magic, science-fiction, historical dramas, first-person narrators who aren't the writers themselves. That's a lot of fiction to be forgotten.

 

Of course, if you don't believe in that theory, or think that the advantages overcome the disadvantages, the point of lack of absolute understanding is meaningless.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This has always been a topic many on these forums seem to despise. They don't want to play as a human. They didn't like how "human-centric" ME2 and ME3 became. There are so many other species worth exploring and playing that we shouldn't limit ourselves to the human experience.

I'll tell you why that understanding is wrong and why BioWare will never endorse it. Mass Effect doesn't make any sense without the human lens. There is nothing to ground us in this franchise without having some form or relatability. Mass Effect has also always been about the underdog story and trying to make something out of oneself.

MEA may not be a sequel to the ME trilogy, but it's a spiritual successor in every sense of the word as it's going back to the fundamentals of what Mass Effect stands for: Exploration, Discovery, Survival, and the Human Experience.

While Mass Effect may have many other species and deals with intergalactic issues, it's still very much a human tale. Mac Walters has already stated MEA will maintain that understanding, and it doesn't appear that Mass Effect will ever change course.

I don't personally see anything wrong with that. On the contrary, I think Mass Effect is far more interesting understanding these other lifeforms through the human eye, rather than BioWare trying to make some compelling tale from a perspective we can never understand or fully appreciate. We are human. It only makes sense to embrace that to further enhance the storytelling in Mass Effect.

Alternatively, they could just craft a detailed setting and let us play in it, without forcing their own story on us.

There are other options.

[Teabaggin Krogan]

...

I'm not saying that they wont be incredibly different, simply that they'll still experience the same array of emotions we do.

 

As Humans we already have the concept of love that isn't specific to a mate. A parent can love their children, or a person can love their family in general or even really close friends.

 

A spider doesn't count because the spider doesn't exhibit higher thought processes. I'm not saying it's universal, I'm saying that it seems likely that any being with those higher thought processes has the same array of emotions.

 

but what they do with them or what triggers them is going to widely vary based on a lot of factors. Those things aren't even consistent among Humans.

 

Well we simply don't know at all if they even have emotions or experience them in a relatable way in the first place. To assume that all higher order life forms have the same array of emotions is simply reflecting our own human characteristics on them.

 

As far as I know, emotions are dependent on the changes in the body in response to some stimuli and the way our mind interprets that as emotion. Simply put alien life is just too alien consider them processing their external stimuli in such a coincidentally similar way. Sure aliens could have emotions similar to our own but it is also equally likely that they may not have any notion of it.  It's not about the concept of love that isn't specific to a mate, it's more about the existence of the notion of love in itself which is just essentially just a human concept. 

 

I used the example of the spider as an example of how different behaviors among different creatures that if they were adopted by humans, would lead to some emotions becoming irrelevant as we know them now. I.e if humans or a higher thinking organism followed the same mating patterns as spiders then their concept of love and courtship would be much different to our actual feelings, that is if they even have such a concept. 

 

Another example would be happiness which is a result of the activation of the corresponding receptors in the brain. An alien might not be hardwired in same way, there might be no pleasure receptors to make them feel good and so the concept of happiness could be totally alien to such an entity regardless of their capabilities of higher thought processes.

 

The same goes for sadness, anger, depression etc which unless I'm wrong are influenced by chemical reactions within the brain. They simply have no meaning outside of our human point of view and to attempt to give aliens such emotions would be to color them with our own characteristics. 

[KrrKs]

My point is by allowing us to play as these classes, you merely continue to make them more soldier and less biotic/tech. Mass Effect is about discovering new worlds, new alien civilizations, and exploring the stars through a rifle scope. Our perspective on these various aliens is already through a rifle scope. Why would we want to further subject them to humanization by making them the not rifle, but power targets? As far as cultural immersion, that's hard to pull off when we have left the Milky Way and are in a new galaxy. Every class on the ARK is likely going to be living under similar conditions, so there likely won't be much in terms of powers and abilities to separate one from the other.

 

I actually don't mind other classes having some traits of soldiers[...]. What I don't want is soldiers with an biotic or tech powerset, which many of the main classes in Mass Effect are dangerously approaching this reality. If everybody in the Milky Way and Andromeda is essentially just soldier, that severely hampers and limits the sense of discovering and shooting stuff in the Mass Effect universe.

This way around, it sounds much more believable.

 

Half the fun of roleplaying is ... roleplaying.

Having the possibility to play as Krogan, Asari, Rachni or Turian and trying to come up with with a working character from that backround would be awesome!

I also want to spit shield bypassing acid on everyone with a different opinion. Just saying'

 

Edit: Accentuation

Modifié par KrrKs, 17 juin 2016 - 06:58 .