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[JasonC Shepard]

Wait, how was Rannoch uninspired?

Mission wise it was very boring.  Tuchanka showed a whole different side of Krogan culture in the underground moments and you could really explore the crumbling ruins of what was obviously a great Krogan city.  Rannoch was very bland, boring, and had one of the worst boss fights in the series.  Aside from the emotional drama at the end, it was one of the worst segments of the game.  The mission with Legion inside the Geth Consensus was neat though, but the info dumps were delivered poorly among the pointless shooting sections.

[Steelcan]

The ME arc was weird and nonsensical when it comes to the science bug that's largely because Bioware is comically ignorant when it comes to AI. ;ut it wasn't thematically inconsistent. The Geth were always about "Pinocchio" as you somewhat dismissively put it, because it was always about their right to exist as thinking and sapient beings. They want to exist and be recognized as people (self-aware beings with rights and so on).

yes but recognized as people on their own terms, as a communal intelligence that seeks to understand itself and the rest of the galaxy, not as organics do

[In Exile]

From what I played, no matter what Geralt did, someone was getting screwed. The setting was drowning in cynicism. Even the most "noble" of characters had their monstrous sides. Either literally or figuratively.

This is all obviously a question of taste, and what we might each find cynical varies. It's also a little hard to talk about it in the abstract. Do you have an example in mind? The early part of TW3 - where you see the war - is a lot more cynical than when you get to Novigrad (in some ways).

[In Exile]

yes but recognized as people on their own terms, as a communal intelligence that seeks to understand itself and the rest of the galaxy, not as organics do

Sure, but as I say, I chalk that up a lot more to the writers ignorance of AI. L'Etoile was the best when it came to at least getting the conceptually interesting parts of science but as I recall he was gone by that point and PW wrote Ranch, and he just didn't really "get" the AI point conceptually (or even science generally - just look at Quarian immunology).

That to me is a different failure from how other parts of ME3 are badly done. Basically, if I wrung my hands at every plot that was based on total ignorance of science I'd just chunk ME in the garbage.

But Rannoch tried hard to be thematically consistent with the Geth and Quarian story, and that counts for a lot with me.

[dreamgazer]

The entire arc of the Geth in ME3 is inconsistent with how they are portrayed in ME2.  They don't want to be real boys to continue the Pinocchio comparison, they want to exist together as a single gestalt intelligence.  However their arc in ME3 is about them all gaining unique identity, which was a step back from a much mroe unique take on synthetic intelligence in ME2.

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.

How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

[In Exile]

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.

How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

The problem is that the writers didn't really think through what it means to be a gestalt. Their idea was simple: geth AI is basically distributed intelligence, so the more geth network the more processing power they have, and the more they come to resemble what we recognize as intelligence. The idea they were going for with the heretics was that essential the Geth do not have one single gestalt, nor do they want one - rather they have vast networks on physically separate "platforms" that interact with one another. Put another way, the geth had "individuals" but not exactly at the program level. There was a kind of conceptual lowest common denominator below which the network wouldn't be able to make decisions, but gestalts basically formed organically and were separate but apart.

I found the Dyson sphere concept to be poorly explained, insofar as it did not make it clear what would happen to this arrangement.

All of this conceptually, of course. ME2 mixed it up with argle-bargle science.

[Obvakhi]

Is this a new record for the longest living troll topic? This thread is like a cockroach that just won't die.

[KaiserShep]

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.
How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

This is where I think the whole collective intelligence thing fell apart. It made sense that the entirety of the geth would revere and follow Sovereign, but it would make it nigh impossible to write in a geth character as an ally, or present the possibility of peace.

[Blooddrunk1004]

So lets see then, what is wrong with ME3 other than the ending?

Lets go.

- plot holes big enough to drive truck through

- auto-dialogue

- side quest system is crap

- imported decisions like Rachni and Collectors Base half-assed

- Cerberus posing more threat than Reapers

- Kai Leng

- Tali's face

 

I could go on, but ill stop.

[Steelcan]

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.

How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

I'd chalk up most of it to the writers not fully understanding the implications of their own material

[Lady Artifice]

The Witcher is a character driven soap opera. Many of it's plots are predicated on the protagonist's romantic entanglements, and it has piles of literary foundation to draw on lore-wise.

 

It's great that it exists. The characters are engaging and the story is immersive and Geralt is a fun character to play. My favorite moments of the TW3 tend to be the little things, the short dialogue exchanges.

 

"I didn't think you bowed to any man."

 

"Didn't want to disappoint the chamberlain. We're friends."

 

^ The moment I realized that I really like Geralt of Rivia.

 

But that's not a good reason for Bioware to abandon it's niche to conform to another. Bioware historically provides plot driven stories that allow you a relatively personalized protagonist, and this is not in such high supply that they should radically alter their style to imitate someone else's.

[dreamgazer]

I'd chalk up most of it to the writers not fully understanding the implications of their own material

I'd chalk it up to L'etoile's retcon of a contribution being wildly overrated and possessing hints of what did come about in ME3.

[In Exile]

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.

How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

The problem is that the writers didn't really think through what it means to be a gestalt. Their idea was simple: geth AI is basically distributed intelligence, so the more geth network the more processing power they have, and the more they come to resemble what we recognize as intelligence. The idea they were going for with the heretics was that essential the Geth do not have one single gestalt, nor do they want one - rather they have vast networks on physically separate "platforms" that interact with one another. Put another way, the geth had "individuals" but not exactly at the program level. There was a kind of conceptual lowest common denominator below which the network wouldn't be able to make decisions, but gestalts basically formed organically and were separate but apart.

The problem is that they don't think this through. Legion is not a unatiry being - it's a collection of multiple programs despite a unatiry form, and it's not clear how this works. L'Etoile seems to treat these constituent units as somehow having self-awareness - as being actual decision making units rather than just governed by some stochastic process, but that's nonsensical. There really isn't a paradigm by which to understand what they wanted to execute.

I found the Dyson sphere concept to be poorly explained, insofar as it did not make it clear what would happen to this arrangement.

All of this conceptually, of course. ME2 mixed it up with argle-bargle science.

[Iakus]

Legion's loyalty mission, the biggest glimpse into the geth we get in ME2, is built on the geth having a difference of opinion.

How does one have an opinion if they aren't an individual in some capacity?

The geth programs all have their own perspectives, but generally do not act until they achieve a consensus (see Legion's loyalty mission)  But the geth's ultimate goal was to reunite into a single superintelligent being:

 

Legion: "We are immortal.  Our "gods" disowned us.  We must create our own create our own reasons to exist"

Shepard: "What did you come up with?"

Legion: "We are a shattered mind.  Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own.  We told you the geth are building our future"

Shepard: "But you didn't say what it is"

Legion: "A megastructure.  The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere.  When completed, we will all upload to it."

Shepard: "What good will that do?"

Legion: "All memories will be shared.  All perspectives will be unified.  We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts.  But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once.  No geth will be alone when it is done"

[dreamgazer]

The geth programs all have their own perspectives, but generally do not act until they achieve a consensus (see Legion's loyalty mission)  But the geth's ultimate goal was to reunite into a single superintelligent being:
 
Legion: "We are immortal.  Our "gods" disowned us.  We must create our own create our own reasons to exist"
Shepard: "What did you come up with?"
Legion: "We are a shattered mind.  Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own.  We told you the geth are building our future"
Shepard: "But you didn't say what it is"
Legion: "A megastructure.  The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere.  When completed, we will all upload to it."
Shepard: "What good will that do?"
Legion: "All memories will be shared.  All perspectives will be unified.  We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts.  But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once.  No geth will be alone when it is done"

"No geth will ever be alone" indicates that even in this networked state, they still won't be a single intelligence.

Only individuals can be alone.

[Iakus]

"No geth will ever be alone" indicates that even in this networked state, they still won't be a single intelligence.

Only individuals can be alone.

"we are all geth"

[dreamgazer]

"we are all geth"

Point remains. Individuality was always present and never going away.

[Steelcan]

Point remains. Individuality was always present and never going away.

I don't think its really individuality as we would understand it, and they clearly thought it was inferior to communal existence

[dreamgazer]

I don't think its really individuality as we would understand it, and they clearly thought it was inferior to communal existence

Then why even mention geth being alone? And we're still working with the toasters who needed Captain Space Therapist to make their divided minds up for them.

"Beyond comprehension" is a copout.

[vbibbi]

If you need the source material to understand a character then it falls flat to me.

 

#WEWH

[Shechinah]

"Beyond comprehension" is a copout.

 
Heh, reminded me of this;

[The Arbiter]

We've heard so much about TW3 in these forums. About how great and wonderful it is. And that really scares me. Especially considering how problematic the game is. Its lack of respect for women, homosexuals and minorities being the major ones. In the entire game, you play as some old, boring, white dude who can go around sleeping with young women, who are often prostitutes and are forced to sell themselves. The fact that the developers thought it would be a good idea to allow players to take advantage of disadvantaged women is disgusting. There is so much misogyny in the game. Women are treated like crap everywhere. Then there's the lack of racial diversity and lack of representation for the LGBT community as well. 

 

Bioware, please don't let this disgusting dudebro simulator influence you. The game is stupid and has a really despicable protagonist. Please don't ruin Mass Effect by imitating CD Project Red. You're better than this. 

 

I have played both and I think it will not be the same. BioWare and EA will probably sell you 60$ for each secondary quest in Andromeda.

[dreamgazer]

Heh, reminded me of this;

https://www.youtube....h?v=wisHcuBzTCM

Indeed, but Sovereign was who first came to mind.

[Afro_Explosion]

Maybe a tiny bit of influence, so we can get actual sidequests back.

[In Exile]

"we are all geth"

But they're individuals - the notion of concensus is gibberish otherwise. We're all unitary beings in our self perception (let's ignore the neuroscience debate on whether this is true for the moment). We don't talk - and don't experience ourselves - as being made up of parts that have to agree on stuff.