396 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, all she did was consider them people. It's not like Minaeve tried to protect them despite risks to her own life and her not being very good with magic. Oh wait, she did.
 

That's step one. Step two is curing them.

[raging_monkey]

To be fair they could easily been dangerous I recall you don't support long term imprisonment and rehabilitation doesn't always work ,nor do you allow the death penalty as a option. I used to think it was cruel now it's nessacary.

Curing them just puts both sides at risk due to unknown varibles

[Daerog]

But no mages physically remained with Vivienne as far as I can tell. During the rebellion, Vivienne just returned to her comfy wing at Duke Bastien's palace. I was under the impression the Loyalists were in Redcliffe too (they had nowhere else to go). You can talk to mages there that are against the vote for independence. Unless you meant they are with Viv 'in spirit'.

Vivienne's mages are with her. She offers their assistance and hers if she joins the Inquisition. We don't meet them in game, which is what I pointed out and expressed disappointment in.

Vivienne didn't join a Fraternity when she became an enchanter, but when the rebellion occurred, she gathered those who opposed the rebels and ended up leading a bunch of Loyalists. The war wasn't just Templars v Mages, it was also a civil war in the Circle, but it seems most joined the rebellion.

This is not seen in game, but through codex entries, dialogue, and such.

[Iakus]

She's not doing much in the way of actually caring for them.

Aside from leading them to a place of safety when full enchanters left them to die, caring for them, and oh yeah 

 

NOT ABANDONING THEM TO THE MAGISTER WHO USES THEIR SKULLS AS DOWSING RODS!

 

Not bad for an apprentice mage.

[Iakus]

But no mages physically remained with Vivienne as far as I can tell. During the rebellion, Vivienne just returned to her comfy wing at Duke Bastien's palace. I was under the impression the Loyalists were in Redcliffe too (they had nowhere else to go). You can talk to mages there that are against the vote for independence. Unless you meant they are with Viv 'in spirit'.

Vivienne was the First Enchanter of the Montsimmard Circle, and was not one of the First Enchanters present at the conclave at White Spire when the hilarity went down.  As such, hers was the only Circle that didn't rebel.  

 

And given how she describes Circle life, she likely gives the mages under her care no reason to want to rebel either.

[Daerog]

NOT ABANDONING THEMTO THE MAGISTER WHO USES THEIR SKULLS AS DOWSING RODS!

SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!

[Iakus]

Vivienne's mages are with her. She offers their assistance and hers if she joins the Inquisition. We don't meet them in game, which is what I pointed out and expressed disappointment in.

Vivienne didn't join a Fraternity when she became an enchanter, but when the rebellion occurred, she gathered those who opposed the rebels and ended up leading a bunch of Loyalists. The war wasn't just Templars v Mages, it was also a civil war in the Circle, but it seems most joined the rebellion.

This is not seen in game, but through codex entries, dialogue, and such.

The implication is those who didn't join the rebellion (willingly or not) were either murdered by their fellow mages or ran away and hid (from both TEmplars and mages)

 

I'm not sure Vivienne's mages are all "Loyalists" as in the fraternity.  I'm guessing there are more than a few aequitarians among them.  But they are "Loyalists" in that they are loyal to the Chantry and hold to the Nevarran Accords.

[Daerog]

The implication is those who didn't join the rebellion (willingly or not) were either murdered by their fellow mages or ran away and hid (from both TEmplars and mages)

I'm not sure Vivienne's mages are all "Loyalists" as in the fraternity. I'm guessing there are more than a few aequitarians among them. But they are "Loyalists" in that they are loyal to the Chantry and hold to the Nevarran Accords.

Not all were Loyalists, but it implies a fair chunk was made up of Loyalists and so Vivienne kinda became the leader of the remaining Loyalists.

She doesn't seem to care much for the other Fraternities, as she is fine making fun of the lucrosians and aequitarians in her Trespasser codex if not Divine... although she isn't technically a part of any party, she has never said anything negative on or joked about Loyalists or Isolationists (iirc), so... I think the Loyalists can count her as an ally, anyway.

Edit: Technically, only enchanters join a fraternity, so most of her followers likely weren't in a party.

[Lulupab]

That's how it works though. Some mages fought mages because they were loyal, and some Templars fought other Templars because they agreed with mage plight.

 

Vivienne version of the circle is not that bad, but she is just very selfish and self righteous. If there are no loyalists she would lose her position as a "good mage", so she only cares about them to hold her own position. 
 

[jlb524]

Vivienne was the First Enchanter of the Montsimmard Circle, and was not one of the First Enchanters present at the conclave at White Spire when the hilarity went down. As such, hers was the only Circle that didn't rebel.

And given how she describes Circle life, she likely gives the mages under her care no reason to want to rebel either.

All Circles pulled away from the Chantry and there were Templars trying to kill any one they thought was a Mage. They aren't going to stop and ask the mage if they are a Loyalist first. The rebellion was an all or none thing and it includes the Montsimmard Circle and the Ostwick Circle (which also mostly didn't support the rebellion).

Her description of Circle life is unique (she even admits that). She gets privileges others don't because she's wooing some rich Duke guy. That tells us nothing about life for other mages at her Circle.

[Steelcan]

All Circles pulled away from the Chantry and there were Templars trying to kill any one they thought was a Mage. They aren't going to stop and ask the mage if they are a Loyalist first. The rebellion was an all or none thing and it includes the Montsimmard Circle and the Ostwick Circle (which also mostly didn't support the rebellion).

Her description of Circle life is unique (she even admits that). She gets privileges others don't because she's wooing some rich Duke guy. That tells us nothing about life for other mages at her Circle.

except not every Circle did rebel, there are even war table missions that describe mages still living in Circles

[Daerog]

except not every Circle did rebel, there are even war table missions that describe mages still living in Circles

Just like not all Templars rebelled.

[Daerog]

That's how it works though. Some mages fought mages because they were loyal, and some Templars fought other Templars because they agreed with mage plight.

Vivienne version of the circle is not that bad, but she is just very selfish and self righteous. If there are no loyalists she would lose her position as a "good mage", so she only cares about them to hold her own position.

I love Vivienne and feel compelled to respond.

Vivienne puts many layers on all her plans, and has plans within plans.

She advances herself, yes, but at the same time she is also benefitting others or taking down a-holes.

She became powerful enough to protect her mage supporters, who would have no where to go otherwise, besides the rebels.

She uses the wyvern heart regardless if the Inq tried to fool her because she also planned to use her attempts to save Bastion to aid the Inquisition with noble support. The Inq trying to throw a wrench into the plans would just be evil, since it wouldn't help, but her plans were already in motion and she at least made some good come out of the situation.

She tricked that one noble jerk to make a good impression/introduction, but he had a bad reputation, so why not knock two birds with one stone? Making friends with the Inq will increase her chances of joining and fighting where she can do the most good, which in turn will gain her prestige she can put forward to other goals.

She is pretty elitist, but she is the best kind. She tries to have good things (from her pov) happen with the least evil done. Advancing herself allows her to benefit others more.

If she was truly selfish, she wouldn't bother putting herself in danger.

So, elitist? Ya. Snobbish? Sure. Selfish? Eh, she has her causes she fights for that she thinks are right, so I think it is unfair to call her selfish. She's like any political leader, gaining power to push for causes. She does care for others and is one of the few, like Josie, who knows how important appearances are with nobility and the Game. I hear she acts only for her benefit, but see no clear evidence on that, as she is always casting down a jerk or aiding friends with her actions.

Like I said, just felt compelled to respond, don't expect to change minds. Loving Sera and Viv has given me a knee jerk reaction on seeing negative posts on them...

[Lulupab]

Politically Selfish then, everything Vivienne does in her life directly or indirectly benefits herself. She may be glad that it benefits others as well, but her main motivation is always herself. Josephine and Leliana on the other hand are idealistic people who are the opposite, their main goal is not self advancement.

 

I always recruit her because I like using her, she adds legitimacy to mage Inquisitor. And I don't ever feel bad because she is so obviously using the Inquisition as well. You have to admit, Vivienne is shaming Tevinter Magisters.

[Lulupab]

except not every Circle did rebel, there are even war table missions that describe mages still living in Circles

 

In that war table mission there are no mention of Templars though? At least I don't remember any, so I might be wrong. It could be a group of mages who returned to the isolated circle after both the Templars and rebel mages left.

 

Either way in each circle at least some mages rebelled and quit the circles, no circle was untouched.

[Daerog]

In that war table mission there are no mention of Templars though? At least I don't remember any, so I might be wrong. It could be a group of mages who returned to the isolated circle after both the Templars and rebel mages left.

Either way in each circle at least some mages rebelled and quit the circles, no circle was untouched.

There was a Circle that had Templars and I think mages in it, iirc. It was surrounded by a mob and the Inquisition can send the dwarf legionairy from the MP to cool things down, and so getting more Templars to join or something.

I'm guessing mages, rebel or not, did go back to Towers that were abandoned. It would just make sense. Plenty of artifacts in a defensible location filled with magic wards and away from foes? Why not?

[Xilizhra]

She advances herself, yes, but at the same time she is also benefitting others or taking down a-holes.

Only if they're opposed to herself. Those assholes who are on her side, she'll keep.

 

So, elitist? Ya. Snobbish? Sure. Selfish? Eh, she has her causes she fights for that she thinks are right, so I think it is unfair to call her selfish. She's like any political leader, gaining power to push for causes. She does care for others and is one of the few, like Josie, who knows how important appearances are with nobility and the Game. I hear she acts only for her benefit, but see no clear evidence on that, as she is always casting down a jerk or aiding friends with her actions.

Callous, brutal, privileged, hypocritical, power-hungry. The worst of it being when she tries to undermine the College in the Trespasser epilogue.

[nightscrawl]

There are a couple of different operations.
 
This one is available on completion of IHW.
 
Answer a Request from Hasmal
 

Commander Cullen,
 
I understand the Inquisition is working with Redcliffe’s mages. I’m surprised someone from Kirkwall would condone any arrangement with them—but it does put you in a position to aid us.
 
Hasmal’s Circle sustained significant damage during the uprising. Rather than follow the Lord Seeker, many of our Templars elected to remain and deal with the aftermath, but our resources are limited. Furthermore, we have loyalist mages with us. Hasmal’s people would happily throw them to the wolves even though they had nothing to do with the rebellion. As it stands, I fear we may fail in our duty to protect them.
 
I trust you sympathize with our predicament. I humbly request our charges be transferred to the Inquisition.
 
Knight-Commander Brycen

 
Depending on the advisor chosen to complete the operation, the templars there also join later on.
 
There is a version for completing CotJ, but that has the templars as more wary of the Inquisition.

 

 

The one with the MP dwarf is an abandoned Circle housing mage refugees, not the original Circle mages who lived there. There are also no templars there, which is probably one reason the mages are in danger from the mob.

[Daerog]

Oh, got the two mixed up I guess, thanks.

[Iakus]

 

Callous, 

No

 

 

brutal

If need be.  But even Varric can be brutal

 

 

privileged

self-made

 

 

hypocritical.

Nope

 

 

power-hungry. 

This one is true.  Though "ambitious" might be a nicer term for it

 

 

The worst of it being when she tries to undermine the College in the Trespasser epilogue

Why should she give two figs for the College?

[Lulupab]

Because the college is the best chance for mages and South Thedas to reconcile. Isolation and lack of understanding seems to be creating more problems than fixing them.

 

But that causes Vivienne to lose political power, god forbid. Even if another mage rebellion happens it doesn't matter as long as she has power. She couldn't stand not having a part or title in new future of the mages so she had to undermine the college. As I said Vivienne is putting the most ambitious Tevinter Magisters to shame.

[Iakus]

Because the college is the best chance for mages and South Thedas to reconcile. Isolation and lack of understanding seems to be creating more problems than fixing them.

 

But that causes Vivienne to lose political power, god forbid. Even if another mage rebellion happens it doesn't matter as long as she has power. She couldn't stand not having a part or title in new future of the mages so she had to undermine the college. As I said Vivienne is putting the most ambitious Tevinter Magisters to shame.

Probably why she allows the COllege to be established if she becomes Divine.

 

Wait 

[Lulupab]

Probably why she allows the COllege to be established if she becomes Divine.

 

Wait 

 

Lol. "Allow" is not the word I'd use for that situation. She was in no position to start another war, she already started one once mages refuse to go back to the circles. This happens at the end of main game.

[Gervaise]

A couple of points, whilst Vivienne was the First Enchanter of Montsimmard Circle, I believe she surrendered that role on becoming Court Enchanter.   Her successor became rather too pally with Gaspard's faction and Celene makes a note in Masked Empire to ask Vivienne to look into it.    Her codex entry makes it clear she was never that interested in Circle politics except where it advanced her own importance.   She never belonged to a fraternity and I get the impression that whilst other mages may have respected her abilities, they probably never warmed to her personally.   When she became Court Enchanter then other mages started trying to gain favour with her but I think having that position and her relationship with Bastien just distanced her more from the ordinary Circle mages.   

 

I assume it was her lack of popularity and her loyalist leanings that prevented her being voted in as Grand Enchanter instead of Fiona.   You'd think she would have been the ideal candidate for the role and would have wanted it herself, yet the College of Enchanters preferred to vote in an ex-Grey Warden who made it clear she was intending shaking things up and pushing for independence.   The Loyalists were always a small faction in the Circles and the College but I get the impression she was never really interested in leading them until the rebellion occurred.   In fact it always seemed odd to me that she wouldn't have been invited to the Conclave at the White Spire but I presume this was because it had been agreed it would be for First Enchanters only and Vivienne was no longer one of their number.    Really I do get the impression that Vivienne had as little to do with Circle politics as she could until the rebellion threatened to upset her privileged existence but then she spotted an opportunity for her personal advancement by throwing in her lot with the fledgling Inquisition.     

 

One thing that seemed very odd is that Vivienne never mentions about Morrigan, or if she does  I must have missed that dialogue prompt.  You'd think she would have been incensed by Celene bringing in a rival and be the first to cast aspersions on her credibility or trustworthiness.   Yet the only real indication we have of that is when she disapproves of you letting her drink the Well, preferring to let the Inquisitor risk themselves instead.   

[thesuperdarkone2]

A couple of points, whilst Vivienne was the First Enchanter of Montsimmard Circle, I believe she surrendered that role on becoming Court Enchanter. Her successor became rather too pally with Gaspard's faction and Celene makes a note in Masked Empire to ask Vivienne to look into it. Her codex entry makes it clear she was never that interested in Circle politics except where it advanced her own importance. She never belonged to a fraternity and I get the impression that whilst other mages may have respected her abilities, they probably never warmed to her personally. When she became Court Enchanter then other mages started trying to gain favour with her but I think having that position and her relationship with Bastien just distanced her more from the ordinary Circle mages.

I assume it was her lack of popularity and her loyalist leanings that prevented her being voted in as Grand Enchanter instead of Fiona. You'd think she would have been the ideal candidate for the role and would have wanted it herself, yet the College of Enchanters preferred to vote in an ex-Grey Warden who made it clear she was intending shaking things up and pushing for independence. The Loyalists were always a small faction in the Circles and the College but I get the impression she was never really interested in leading them until the rebellion occurred. In fact it always seemed odd to me that she wouldn't have been invited to the Conclave at the White Spire but I presume this was because it had been agreed it would be for First Enchanters only and Vivienne was no longer one of their number. Really I do get the impression that Vivienne had as little to do with Circle politics as she could until the rebellion threatened to upset her privileged existence but then she spotted an opportunity for her personal advancement by throwing in her lot with the fledgling Inquisition.

One thing that seemed very odd is that Vivienne never mentions about Morrigan, or if she does I must have missed that dialogue prompt. You'd think she would have been incensed by Celene bringing in a rival and be the first to cast aspersions on her credibility or trustworthiness. Yet the only real indication we have of that is when she disapproves of you letting her drink the Well, preferring to let the Inquisitor risk themselves instead.

Actually, some banters show that Vivienne is salty that Morrigan took the position she worked hard to get without any effort