Probably why she allows the COllege to be established if she becomes Divine.
Wait
Only if they're opposed to herself. Those assholes who are on her side, she'll keep.
Callous, brutal, privileged, hypocritical, power-hungry. The worst of it being when she tries to undermine the College in the Trespasser epilogue.
So if she didn't undermine the College, she'd be too much like you and many of your other favored persons?
One thing that seemed very odd is that Vivienne never mentions about Morrigan, or if she does I must have missed that dialogue prompt. You'd think she would have been incensed by Celene bringing in a rival and be the first to cast aspersions on her credibility or trustworthiness. Yet the only real indication we have of that is when she disapproves of you letting her drink the Well, preferring to let the Inquisitor risk themselves instead.
While Dorian asks Vivienne about Morrigan:
Because the college is the best chance for mages and South Thedas to reconcile. Isolation and lack of understanding seems to be creating more problems than fixing them.
If that were the case, the college will have to work even harder to fix or even earn that trust from the non-mages. But it's hard to say if Southern Thedas will ever trust them again after the rebellion (I'd expect Bioware to simply handwave that fear) or where they are even located (which for me is crucial to their future).
Callous, brutal, privileged, hypocritical, power-hungry.
Same can be said to Solas in Trespasser.
Same can be said to Solas in Trespasser.
Ah, but Solas shows a bit of remorse as he goes forth to attempt a third genocidal change to the fabric of reality in the name of racial advancement. Plus, he's an elf who likes magic. Hence he's redeemable.
Vivienne is unapologetic about her various actions which have never sanctioned genocide, and she's whole-heartedly committed to preventing mages from having the freedom and opportunity to attempt genocidal changes to the fabric of reality, while taking no particular interest in racial agendas. Ergo, she's evil.
Vivienne is unapologetic about her various actions which have never sanctioned genocide, and she's whole-heartedly committed to preventing mages from having the freedom and opportunity to attempt genocidal changes to the fabric of reality, while taking no particular interest in racial agendas. Ergo, she's evil.
With this, do you think she's out of character to allow the College and Circle to co-exist?
With this, do you think she's out of character to allow the College and Circle to co-exist?
No, but more for the fact that it would be in her character to do so depending on circumstance than for how it was briefly described in the epilogue slide. The slide portrays the choice as an act of magnanimity and a favor to the Inquisitor... even if the Inquisitor is anti-mage freedom.
What the slide doesn't say, but other context does, is that Vivienne has enough problems consolidating her rule and keeping things together, that preventing the Circle might not be a fight she's willing or able to take on at the moment. By trespasser she's just coming off of multiple rebellions, her her own mage reforms to deal with, and is facing a Qunari crisis. Mage dissent might not be the easiest thing to suppress, especially considering it's not quite clear if all the mages who fled during the mage rebellions have actually returned, or are still apostates in hiding.
There is a logic to allowing the College to exist, and it's much the same as what many dominant political actors or parties do- permit a marginal opposition group to exist, even especially when it's not a real challenger. There's multiple benefits to doing so: it can be used to demonstrate that claims of totalitarianism are overblown (e.g., Vivienne being a tyrant even as she allows her most bitter mage opponents autonomy), it offers a safety-valve for anti-establishment forces to try and agitate through in a more predictable manner, and it invites dissidents and political opponents to self-identify and gather all together in a way they can be watched and observed. There's a reason why the staunchly anti-communist United States of America allowed the American Communist Party to survive during the Cold War.
Of course, there's another angle as well- the popular discreditation and deligitimization of the College proposal. Quite rarely is political defeat alone enough to end a movement- otherwise, inevitable setbacks would doom all great ideas. Instead, if you really want to stop something you have to convince enough people that it's such a bad idea that it shouldn't be done in the future.
If Vivienne outlaws the College, mages can whisper and conspire to bring it back, convinced they would succeed if given a chance. If the College fails on its own accord, however, or in competition with the Circles, then that insurgent sentiment will be undercut. It's not enough for the College to be banned- it needs to lose, popularly, objectively, politically, to the point that mages wouldn't want to join the Circle. If they want privileges, security, advancement, and protection, they'll go to the faction that offers the better mix. Ultimately, the Colleges will fail when mages give up on them.
Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing. An objective pro-mage, as opposed to an anti-Circle advocate, would probably rejoice in that sort of competition- either it means Vivienne is being forced to do more than would otherwise be done, or (equally viable) it means it gives Vivienne cover to do what she already wants to. Vivienne can justify her reforms to even anti-mages on the grounds that if she doesn't, the more dangerous Colleges will grow freer.
Of course, there are other things as well, not necessarily good factors. Competition can undercut eachother, and nothing will ensure the Colleges fail better than, well, ensuring the Colleges fail. Zero-sum competition. And, of course, some fundamental disagreements about what sort of freedoms and oversights mages should have.
But that's natural. And, I suspect, inevitable. No matter what Divine you have, you'll have a College and you'll have Vivienne supporting the Circles in contest for public, and mage, support as she works to not only render the Colleges irrelevant, but to rob them of even mage support.
And, to reach back to your original queation, I think that that would be quite in character.
No, but more for the fact that it would be in her character to do so depending on circumstance than for how it was briefly described in the epilogue slide. The slide portrays the choice as an act of magnanimity and a favor to the Inquisitor... even if the Inquisitor is anti-mage freedom.
What the slide doesn't say, but other context does, is that Vivienne has enough problems consolidating her rule and keeping things together, that preventing the Circle might not be a fight she's willing or able to take on at the moment. By trespasser she's just coming off of multiple rebellions, her her own mage reforms to deal with, and is facing a Qunari crisis. Mage dissent might not be the easiest thing to suppress, especially considering it's not quite clear if all the mages who fled during the mage rebellions have actually returned, or are still apostates in hiding.
There is a logic to allowing the College to exist, and it's much the same as what many dominant political actors or parties do- permit a marginal opposition group to exist, even especially when it's not a real challenger. There's multiple benefits to doing so: it can be used to demonstrate that claims of totalitarianism are overblown (e.g., Vivienne being a tyrant even as she allows her most bitter mage opponents autonomy), it offers a safety-valve for anti-establishment forces to try and agitate through in a more predictable manner, and it invites dissidents and political opponents to self-identify and gather all together in a way they can be watched and observed. There's a reason why the staunchly anti-communist United States of America allowed the American Communist Party to survive during the Cold War.
Of course, there's another angle as well- the popular discreditation and deligitimization of the College proposal. Quite rarely is political defeat alone enough to end a movement- otherwise, inevitable setbacks would doom all great ideas. Instead, if you really want to stop something you have to convince enough people that it's such a bad idea that it shouldn't be done in the future.
If Vivienne outlaws the College, mages can whisper and conspire to bring it back, convinced they would succeed if given a chance. If the College fails on its own accord, however, or in competition with the Circles, then that insurgent sentiment will be undercut. It's not enough for the College to be banned- it needs to lose, popularly, objectively, politically, to the point that mages wouldn't want to join the Circle. If they want privileges, security, advancement, and protection, they'll go to the faction that offers the better mix. Ultimately, the Colleges will fail when mages give up on them.
Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing. An objective pro-mage, as opposed to an anti-Circle advocate, would probably rejoice in that sort of competition- either it means Vivienne is being forced to do more than would otherwise be done, or (equally viable) it means it gives Vivienne cover to do what she already wants to. Vivienne can justify her reforms to even anti-mages on the grounds that if she doesn't, the more dangerous Colleges will grow freer.
Of course, there are other things as well, not necessarily good factors. Competition can undercut eachother, and nothing will ensure the Colleges fail better than, well, ensuring the Colleges fail. Zero-sum competition. And, of course, some fundamental disagreements about what sort of freedoms and oversights mages should have.
But that's natural. And, I suspect, inevitable. No matter what Divine you have, you'll have a College and you'll have Vivienne supporting the Circles in contest for public, and mage, support as she works to not only render the Colleges irrelevant, but to rob them of even mage support.
And, to reach back to your original queation, I think that that would be quite in character.
Thanks for your insight!
In regards to the topic: There are many ways to RP this choice, but I still feel kind of cheated having to choose between mages and Templars but can get both Orlesians and Grey Wardens.
Just my own personal issues, nothing more.
Ah, but Solas shows a bit of remorse as he goes forth to attempt a third genocidal change to the fabric of reality in the name of racial advancement. Plus, he's an elf who likes magic. Hence he's redeemable.
Vivienne is unapologetic about her various actions which have never sanctioned genocide, and she's whole-heartedly committed to preventing mages from having the freedom and opportunity to attempt genocidal changes to the fabric of reality, while taking no particular interest in racial agendas. Ergo, she's evil.
Does it matter? Solas is blatantly becoming a villain in Trespasser. Even if its a sympathetic one.
Vivienne is not recognized as a villain by the game, while she definitely has the traits. For one she has the highest murder count as divine. She is not Leliana who only kills sect leaders inside chantry, she kills entire mages who disagree with her plan for them.
Does it matter? Solas is blatantly becoming a villain in Trespasser. Even if its a sympathetic one.
For Xil? Yes, it matters quite a bit, even if she'll often deny it.
Xil's opinion on any person or group is tied far more to how closely they're tied to her favored identity groups than it is any actions they take or the attitude they take them with. Casual murderers, racial supremacists, and even outright genocidal aspirations are forgivable if in pursuit of the right identity group. Far lesser crimes are intolerable if performed by those who oppose those identity groups.
Vivienne is not recognized as a villain by the game, while she definitely has the traits. For one she has the highest murder count as divine. She is not Leliana who only kills sect leaders inside chantry, she kills entire mages who disagree with her plan for them.
Putting down open rebellions against legitimately elected and (re)established authorities is murder now? Huh. Strange.
Most people would blame the insurrectionists bar compelling evidence otherwise... but then, this is Fiona and mage-phobe mundanes we're talking about. I'm sure they have perfectly good reasons, and meticulously planned out their defiance so that all blame deserves to go to the Divine.
For Xil? Yes, it matters quite a bit, even if she'll often deny it.
Xil's opinion on any person or group is tied far more to how closely they're tied to her favored identity groups than it is any actions they take or the attitude they take them with. Casual murderers, racial supremacists, and even outright genocidal aspirations are forgivable if in pursuit of the right identity group. Far lesser crimes are intolerable if performed by those who oppose those identity groups.
Putting down open rebellions against legitimately elected and (re)established authorities is murder now? Huh. Strange.
Most people would blame the insurrectionists bar compelling evidence otherwise... but then, this is Fiona and mage-phobe mundanes we're talking about. I'm sure they have perfectly good reasons, and meticulously planned out their defiance so that all blame deserves to go to the Divine.
Xil, like everyone, has her opinions but I doubt she ever said Vivienne is more villain than Solas. Not to mention comparing them to each other is not a good idea at all.
Open Rebellion? The mages just disagreed to go into circles they rebelled to get out of it, and rightfully so. Vivienne was either naive (which we both know is not true) or she exactly wanted them to resist so she could put them to the torch.
By that logic Leliana should commit genocide on Vivienne and all her followers when they disagree with Leliana's vision for the mages and make their own circle. But guess what? Unlike Vivenne, Leliana is not a tyrant. Vivienne is not out to oppose the Divine and stop her plans (like the sect leaders she kills) but she is merely proposing an idea and making it happen after disagreeing with Leliana's plan.
self-made
Fucked her way to the top: Truly, Vivienne is an example for all.
***
Actually, some banters show that Vivienne is salty that Morrigan took the position she worked hard to get without any effort
Fought during the fifth Blight, helped destroy the Archdemon before it could threaten Orlais thus saving the lives of thousands if not millions of Celene's subjets -> "Got the position without any effort."
***
Callous, brutal, privileged, hypocritical, power-hungry.
Orlaisian
Fought during the fifth Blight, helped destroy the Archdemon before it could threaten Orlais thus saving the lives of thousands if not millions of Celene's subjets -> "Got the position without any effort."
This is if you accepted the DR. Otherwise, she abandons you on a whim.
Funny, I can't help but I wonder on the parallels between Morrigan and Vivienne:
- both are hungry for power of any kind (M - magical kind, V - political)
- both react rather badly if you disagree on their ideas
- both react more viciously if you turn down their requests (M - DR, V - sidequest)
- both are cold and ruthless to those who they think are beneath them
Open Rebellion? The mages just disagreed to go into circles they rebelled to get out of it, and rightfully so.
You have to remember not every Circle mage wanted to rebel, but are stuck with the ones who did so since they have nowhere else to go. So, it's kind of unfair to assume that some mages would want to openly rebel.
Xil, like everyone, has her opinions but I doubt she ever said Vivienne is more villain than Solas. Not to mention comparing them to each other is not a good idea at all.
Callous, brutal, privileged, hypocritical, power-hungry.
If this is not a typical trope version of a villain, I don't know what is.
You have to remember not every Circle mage wanted to rebel, but are stuck with the ones who did so since they have nowhere else to go. So, it's kind of unfair to assume that some mages would want to openly rebel.
There are various sources that says the majority did rebel however. So in this case Vivienne is supporting the minority by mass killing the majority. Vivienne forces mages back in to the circle, she only kills those who refuse. So I don't see how its unfair to mages who didn't rebel.
If this is not a typical trope version of a villain, I don't know what is.
I definitely think Vivienne has villain traits. I said no one thinks Vivienne is more of villain than Solas, which is true. That doesn't mean Vivienne is not villain herself. The point here is Vivienne is nullified for the most part if she is not made Divine, she may have the thoughts but she doesn't get the power to act on them. Solas has the power in every scenario.
This is if you accepted the DR. Otherwise, she abandons you on a whim.
Funny, I can't help but I wonder on the parallels between Morrigan and Vivienne:
- both are hungry for power of any kind (M - magical kind, V - political)
- both react rather badly if you disagree on their ideas
- both react more viciously if you turn down their requests (M - DR, V - sidequest)
- both are cold and ruthless to those who they think are beneath them
Except Morrigan has more redeeming qualities and she has transformed in DA:I, and I doubt Morrigan is "hungry" for political power. She accepts that position to keep herself safe from getting hunted as an apostate. Also Morrigan's death count is far below Vivienne's. In DAO she may have "evil" ideas but she never acts on them, ever. She merely suggest them and gets disappointed if the warden doesn't oblige.
Except Morrigan has more redeeming qualities and she has transformed in DA:I, and I doubt Morrigan is "hungry" for political power. She accepts that position to keep herself safe from getting hunted as an apostate. Also Morrigan's death count is far below Vivienne's. In DAO she may have "evil" ideas but she never acts on them, ever. She merely suggest them and gets disappointed if the warden doesn't oblige.
I never said Morrigan desired political power. She's way more on arcane knowledge or power. Read carefully next time.
I never said Morrigan desired political power. She's way more on arcane knowledge or power. Read carefully next time.
"both are hungry for power of any kind" didn't mean that though. Morrigan doesn't even remotely care for petty squabbles. So she is not way more on arcane knowledge, learning and preserving magic is pretty much the only thing she cares about.
Plus you need to stop nitpicking and picking sentences out of context.
Plus you need to stop nitpicking and picking sentences out of context.
The same could be said to anyone in this forum.
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