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[vbibbi]

 
Fought during the fifth Blight, helped destroy the Archdemon before it could threaten Orlais thus saving the lives of thousands if not millions of Celene's subjets -> "[font='comic sans ms', cursive]Got the position without any effort.

Helping to stop the Blight should earn her goodwill, definitely. But it doesn't automatically qualify her for a high level political position. Most in the Orlesian court would dislike an outsider taking an extremely advantageous position with the Empress with little political effort and in such a short amount of time. They have all had to scheme for years and compromise on things to get where they are, and Morrigan just walks in and steps over them as if they're nothing.

[Xilizhra]

Helping to stop the Blight should earn her goodwill, definitely. But it doesn't automatically qualify her for a high level political position. Most in the Orlesian court would dislike an outsider taking an extremely advantageous position with the Empress with little political effort and in such a short amount of time. They have all had to scheme for years and compromise on things to get where they are, and Morrigan just walks in and steps over them as if they're nothing.

Well, that's the thing, you see: they are nothing.

[Daerog]

Well, to be honest, if you are going for an arcane advisor, Morrigan is a good one.

Not socially, and perhaps her morals are questionable as well, but she certainly knows a lot about magic. She discovered the Crossroads on her own, that's quite the feat for a human.

I get why anyone would be bitter about losing a position that worked for them, that's normal, but Morrigan wasn't a bad choice for replacement. After all, it was just an advisory position, she wasn't in charge of anything.

[jlb524]

We both know that was an out of character moment so that all world states have the same situation, especially considering that in other endings where Viv has any choice, she does everything she can to try and eliminate or kill the college and its supporters

 

I don't think it's out of character.  The College does provide all the things that she argued were lacking when the Circles fell (i.e., there was no where to train young mages, the College provides a safe place for mages to study with others like themselves, etc.)    Her issue with the Colleges is because the old Circle power structure might not be maintained since they're starting over again (and this might leave her out of it).  This would especially be true if the new College's leadership was rebel-heavy.  Her fear is then she'd lose the power she took so long to accomplish.

 

But if she's Divine?  Who cares!  She's literally the most powerful person in Southern Thedas.

[Nixou]

This is if you accepted the DR. Otherwise, she abandons you on a whim.

 

 

 

Even if you reject her deal, she still helps your Warden during most of the game.

[Shechinah]

 

Even if you reject her deal, she still helps your Warden during most of the game.

 

 

Morrigan only offers the Dark Ritual deal and you can only reject said deal near the end of the game. If you reject it, she leaves immediately after, as far as I know.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xil, like everyone, has her opinions but I doubt she ever said Vivienne is more villain than Solas. Not to mention comparing them to each other is not a good idea at all.

 

Xil has called Vienne evil and defended Solas from such accusations.

 

Now, that's not quite the same thing as calling Vivienne the villain, but that's a context of scenario. In terms of moral worth, Xil has repeatedly placed an aspiring genocidal supremacist over a conservative but disagreeable politician who disagrees with her but hasn't an atrocity to her name. Her positions on what should happen to them in an ideal world (or if she had the opportunity) have consistently been completely out of proportion with their past actions and future intentions.

 

 

 

Open Rebellion? The mages just disagreed to go into circles they rebelled to get out of it, and rightfully so. Vivienne was either naive (which we both know is not true) or she exactly wanted them to resist so she could put them to the torch. 

 

 

What 'them'? By the end of Inquisition, there is no more 'the mages.' Allied with the Circles or not, the Mage rebellion is tsundered and the identity no longer works as a polity- there are mages in the College, Mages in the Circle, Mages in the Inquisition, Mages still in hiding, and with Vivienne there are Mages in the Chantry.

 

The mages Vivienne crushes are only the sort associated with Fiona- hardly the sort for subtle subversion- while Colleges, Circles, Inquisition, and Chantry mages all continue to exist and establish themselves.

 

 

 

By that logic Leliana should commit genocide on Vivienne and all her followers when they disagree with Leliana's vision for the mages and make their own circle. But guess what?

 

Vivienne isn't rebelling against Leliana?

 

 

 

 

Unlike Vivenne, Leliana is not a tyrant.

 

 

Leliana assassinates her foes out of convenience. Vivienne can only tyrannize her own beauracracy, and we haven't even seen that.

 

 

 

Vivienne is not out to oppose the Divine and stop her plans (like the sect leaders she kills) but she is merely proposing an idea and making it happen after disagreeing with Leliana's plan. 

 

 

So, not rebelling.

 

Called it!

[Lulupab]

Xil has called Vienne evil and defended Solas from such accusations.
 
Now, that's not quite the same thing as calling Vivienne the villain, but that's a context of scenario. In terms of moral worth, Xil has repeatedly placed an aspiring genocidal supremacist over a conservative but disagreeable politician who disagrees with her but hasn't an atrocity to her name. Her positions on what should happen to them in an ideal world (or if she had the opportunity) have consistently been completely out of proportion with their past actions and future intentions.

Well I'm not gonna discuss, more like gossip about someone else. I merely think Vivienne has enough traits to be called a villain in some people's eyes. Although I disagree with her being put above Solas in this regard.
 

What 'them'? By the end of Inquisition, there is no more 'the mages.' Allied with the Circles or not, the Mage rebellion is tsundered and the identity no longer works as a polity- there are mages in the College, Mages in the Circle, Mages in the Inquisition, Mages still in hiding, and with Vivienne there are Mages in the Chantry.

If you make Vivienne Divine, before Trespasser there is no college. Not yet anyway. In the main game epilogue she brings back the circles and makes it mandatory for mages to be in them. Those who refuse are either forced to submit or are killed. There is no complication here.
 

The mages Vivienne crushes are only the sort associated with Fiona- hardly the sort for subtle subversion- while Colleges, Circles, Inquisition, and Chantry mages all continue to exist and establish themselves.

Again this is after Trespasser. Vivienne's first attempt is to crush everything except circles, with that failing she compromises in Trespasser. There is no college in main game ending if Vivienne becomes divine.

Vivienne isn't rebelling against Leliana?

Depends on what you mean by rebel. Mages who refused to go back to circles on main game ending did not rebel either. Not wanting to go back to something you sacrificed everything to get out of doesn't seem like rebelling. Or even if you count it a rebellion, its a pretty justified one because you are rebelling against a tyrant. As I said in main game ending Vivienne does not give a choice to mages. Its her way or the high way. Leliana gives a choice, so does Cassandra.
 

Leliana assassinates her foes out of convenience. Vivienne can only tyrannize her own beauracracy, and we haven't even seen that.

Well if you call killing people who want to kill you and create separate sects for the sole purpose of opposing you "convenience" be my guest. Its what she should do. Mind you she only kills the leaders, so that alone keeps the bloodshed to minimum. The leaderless sects simply disband, as its explained in the epilogue. She prevents an all out war with these assassinations.
 

So, not rebelling.
 
Called it!
So, like, not rebelling against the legitimate authority.

Again it depends on the circumstance. Leliana could have easily seen it as a rebellion and put it down. But if both of us are honest here we know that Leliana is far more idealistic and liberal than Vivienne and as long as something is not direct threat to her she will allow it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well I'm not gonna discuss, more like gossip about someone else. I merely think Vivienne has enough traits to be called a villain in some people's eyes. Although I disagree with her being put above Solas in this regard.

 

Xil's positions do get harder to defend when taken in aggregate, so it's probably best for you to quit while you're only slightly behind. It'd be terribly unfair if you were forced to defend some of her positions and rationals from over the years.
 

 

If you make Vivienne Divine, before Trespasser there is no college. Not yet anyway. In the main game epilogue she brings back the circles and makes it mandatory for mages to be in them. Those who refuse are either forced to submit or are killed. There is no complication here.

 

 

Indeed. No one forced Fiona's fanatics to once again restart a fight most mages didn't want in the first place, and most mages do quite well without joining.

 

Again this is after Trespasser. Vivienne's first attempt is to crush everything except circles,

 

*Citation needed.
 

 

with that failing she compromises in Trespasser.

 

 

*Citation needed.

 

 

There is no college in main game ending if Vivienne becomes divine.

 

 

There doesn't need to be.

 

 

 

Depends on what you mean by rebel. Mages who refused to go back to circles on main game ending did not rebel either. Not wanting to go back to something you sacrificed everything to get out of doesn't seem like rebelling. Or even if you count it a rebellion, its a pretty justified one because you are rebelling against a tyrant. As I said in main game ending Vivienne does not give a choice to mages. Its her way or the high way. Leliana gives a choice, so does Cassandra.

 

 

If Leliana's abolition of the Circles is giving a choice, so is Vivienne's sanction of the College.

 

Nor has Vivienne's tyranny against Fiona's faction ever actually been established- much like the vague nevulous claim of what said tyranny is supposed to consist of. Reformed Circles? Reined in Templar oversight? Ascendance into the actual power-politics of Andrastian society?

 

So far all we know is that Fiona's group tries to do something, Vivienne stops it, and everyone else gets on with their lives and reforms without much issue. Considering that Fiona's last major policy actions included helping coerce an unwilling mage polity into rebellion, losing said rebellion due to poor planning and incompetance, selling the survivors into slavery to a cabal of mage supremacists, supporting a coup against patrons, and being entirely negligent and unaware at best of the genocide of tranquil under her perview even as maleficar defectors from her own ranks rampaged uncontested right outside the city gates... I'm really, really not sure why Fiona and the people who think her ideas were great should be trusted to do whatever they want.

 

Well if you call killing people who want to kill you and create separate sects for the sole purpose of opposing you "convenience" be my guest. Its what she should do. Mind you she only kills the leaders, so that alone keeps the bloodshed to minimum. The leaderless sects simply disband, as its explained in the epilogue. She prevents an all out war with these assassinations.

 

Considering that Vivienne, Cassandra, and even Leliana herself don't require political assasinations, and two of them don't face wars either, Bloody Murder Leliana's elimination of dissident figureheads can't be called 'necessary.' Even the claim she prevents all-out war is both unsupported (as she faced schism, not war), and premature (as her reign is yet young, and her actions can yet start a conflict).

 

This, of course, also ignores the other problems that come along with regularly attempting to murder your opponents before they can challenge you or resist your policies- a state of affairs that far more merits 'tyranny' than anything we've yet seen with Vivienne.
 
 

Again it depends on the circumstance. Leliana could have easily seen it as a rebellion and put it down.

 

*Citation needed.
 

 

But if both of us are honest here we know that Leliana is far more idealistic and liberal than Vivienne and as long as something is not direct threat to her she will allow it.

 

Liberal? Yes. Idealistic? Questionable- ideals are usually distinguishable from personal desires. Defensive? Not at all- bloody Leliana's entire shitick is pre-emption and coercion, explicit or implicit, to get people to do what she wants. Vivienne's the far more defensive player- while we have multitudes of cases where Leliana is willing or even eager to be an aggressor, Vivienne's actions are far more consistently retaliatory in nature.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, that's the thing, you see: they are nothing.

 

Be sure to remember that the next time you're passed over for anything you've spent years or decades for, please.

[Iakus]

 

Fucked her way to the top: Truly, Vivienne is an example for all.

 

Nope.  If anything her relationship with Bastien hurt both his own standing and her own.  Ironically, because people in court thought the same ting you did.

 

 

Fought during the fifth Blight, helped destroy the Archdemon before it could threaten Orlais thus saving the lives of thousands if not millions of Celene's subjets -> "Got the position without any effort."

Does anyone at court that Celene's apostate adviser is that apostate?  Before she reveals her identity in WEAWH?  For all Vivienne knew, she was just another hedge-mage.

 

 

 

Orlaisian

Marcher 

[Iakus]

 
If you make Vivienne Divine, before Trespasser there is no college. Not yet anyway. In the main game epilogue she brings back the circles and makes it mandatory for mages to be in them. Those who refuse are either forced to submit or are killed. There is no complication here.
  

Or join the Inquisition

[vbibbi]

Well, to be honest, if you are going for an arcane advisor, Morrigan is a good one.

Not socially, and perhaps her morals are questionable as well, but she certainly knows a lot about magic. She discovered the Crossroads on her own, that's quite the feat for a human.

I get why anyone would be bitter about losing a position that worked for them, that's normal, but Morrigan wasn't a bad choice for replacement. After all, it was just an advisory position, she wasn't in charge of anything.

 

But her position really is political. She has the empress' ear. The game makes it look like Vivienne was tossed to the side when Morrigan came upon the scene. After all, Vivienne was nowhere near Celene by the time of the civil war or any time leading up to WEWH. She was on her own, while we see Morrigan as shadowing the empress. Sometimes positions that aren't official can end up being more powerful than official ones.

[Nixou]

Morrigan only offers the Dark Ritual deal and you can only reject said deal near the end of the game. If you reject it, she leaves immediately after, as far as I know.

 

 

Exactly: she offers the Dark Ritual at the very end. Since she joins after Ostagar, she's here during the Broken Circle, during the battle of Redcliffe, during the Urn of Sacred Ashes Quest, during the Dalish/Werewolves conflict, during the Orzammar succession crisis, and finally during the Landsmeet. I daresay that she earned her status as a fifth blight veteran.

 

Nope.  If anything her relationship with Bastien hurt both his own standing and her own.  Ironically, because people in court thought the same ting you did.

 

 

The way the game portray Vivienne's relationship with Bastien implies that Vivienne was already vying for a position of power when she met him the first time, took advantage of the fact that a powerful duke was smitten with her, with her ending genuinely loving him being an unforeseen consequence that she tried to keep hidden because in "The Game" sentimentality is an exploitable weakness.

[vbibbi]

 

Exactly: she offers the Dark Ritual at the very end. Since she joins after Ostagar, she's here during the Broken Circle, during the battle of Redcliffe, during the Urn of Sacred Ashes Quest, during the Dalish/Werewolves conflict, during the Orzammar succession crisis, and finally during the Landsmeet. I daresay that she earned her status as a fifth blight veteran.

 

 

The way the game portray Vivienne's relationship with Bastien implies that Vivienne was already vying for a position of power when she met him the first time, took advantage of the fact that a powerful duke was smitten with her, with her ending genuinely loving him being an unforeseen consequence that she tried to keep hidden because in "The Game" sentimentality is an exploitable weakness.

 

 

Well, it was Flemeth and not Morrigan who volunteered her to join us, so I don't think we can fairly credit Morrigan for joining the cause. She stuck to it, which is admirable, but IMO more to accomplish the plan she and Flemeth had. Later, if we befriend or romance her, she stays because of her relationship with us rather than the DR. Even if she's kicked out, she always comes back to ask us to perform the DR. It's still her end goal, even if she is our friend or lover.

[Lulupab]

Xil's positions do get harder to defend when taken in aggregate, so it's probably best for you to quit while you're only slightly behind. It'd be terribly unfair if you were forced to defend some of her positions and rationals from over the years.
 

 

 

Indeed. No one forced Fiona's fanatics to once again restart a fight most mages didn't want in the first place, and most mages do quite well without joining.

 

*Citation needed.
 

 

*Citation needed.

 

 

There doesn't need to be.

 

 

 

 

If Leliana's abolition of the Circles is giving a choice, so is Vivienne's sanction of the College.

 

Nor has Vivienne's tyranny against Fiona's faction ever actually been established- much like the vague nevulous claim of what said tyranny is supposed to consist of. Reformed Circles? Reined in Templar oversight? Ascendance into the actual power-politics of Andrastian society?

 

So far all we know is that Fiona's group tries to do something, Vivienne stops it, and everyone else gets on with their lives and reforms without much issue. Considering that Fiona's last major policy actions included helping coerce an unwilling mage polity into rebellion, losing said rebellion due to poor planning and incompetance, selling the survivors into slavery to a cabal of mage supremacists, supporting a coup against patrons, and being entirely negligent and unaware at best of the genocide of tranquil under her perview even as maleficar defectors from her own ranks rampaged uncontested right outside the city gates... I'm really, really not sure why Fiona and the people who think her ideas were great should be trusted to do whatever they want.

 

Considering that Vivienne, Cassandra, and even Leliana herself don't require political assasinations, and two of them don't face wars either, Bloody Murder Leliana's elimination of dissident figureheads can't be called 'necessary.' Even the claim she prevents all-out war is both unsupported (as she faced schism, not war), and premature (as her reign is yet young, and her actions can yet start a conflict).

 

This, of course, also ignores the other problems that come along with regularly attempting to murder your opponents before they can challenge you or resist your policies- a state of affairs that far more merits 'tyranny' than anything we've yet seen with Vivienne.
 
 

*Citation needed.
 

Liberal? Yes. Idealistic? Questionable- ideals are usually distinguishable from personal desires. Defensive? Not at all- bloody Leliana's entire shitick is pre-emption and coercion, explicit or implicit, to get people to do what she wants. Vivienne's the far more defensive player- while we have multitudes of cases where Leliana is willing or even eager to be an aggressor, Vivienne's actions are far more consistently retaliatory in nature.

 

I think you are being a bit subjective here.

 

The mages Vivienne kills are no less rebellious than sect leaders Leliana kills, one cannot be be justified without the other. Its just that these sects leaders are specifically out to get Leliana while the mages just don't want to be locked up in the circles again. I think the implication is clear. Taking aggression when you are absolutely sure you are going to be targeted is actually a defensive move. You know what they say, best defense is a good...

 

The thing with Leliana is that all her ideas benefit the common people and the oppressed and these people severely outnumber the privileged and people in power. So she has the benefit of majority in mind. Some corruptions in the Chantry are revealed in DA:I, Leliana fixes them all. The sect leaders who rise against her almost immediately are obviously the sort of people who fed on this corruption, because after Leliana they can no longer have the power and resources they used to.

 

As for comparison of hardened Leliana to Cassandra and Leliana, first of all the comparison cannot be made with at least some hindsight which is never good if the comparison is solely based on judge of character. I'm sure you agree that killing power hungry priests who oppose you because you took away their power is safer than persuading them? Softened Leliana is like Gandhi who will end up assassinated because some fanatics simply cannot be persuaded. Hardened Leliana is like Queen Elizabeth of England who lived a very long life and thanks to her large spy networks and political power transformed England from religious backwater with fat priests to land of art, literature and human advancement. She is usually regarded as most important woman in history of England. Actually the resemblance to Leliana is astonishing because she also killed fanatical religious leaders, removed social class requirement in many professions such as knighthood and got the love of common people and the oppressed. Oh and she had red hair 

 

As for circles, Leliana disbands the old circle system. "Circle" is just a name at this point, she gives the freedom to mages to create whatever institution they prefer. They create the college, they could have created another version of Circleif they wanted, like Vivienne does. No one was stopping them, certainly not Leliana. Leliana is the only divine that gives a choice to the mages instead of dictating one for them and they always end up creating the college, which says a lot here.

[sniper_arrow]

The thing with Leliana is that all her ideas benefit the common people and the oppressed and these people severely outnumber the privileged and people in power. So she has the benefit of majority in mind. Some corruptions in the Chantry are revealed in DA:I, Leliana fixes them all. The sect leaders who rise against her almost immediately are obviously the sort of people who fed on this corruption, because after Leliana they can no longer have the power and resources they used to.

 

It seems you're underselling Cassandra in this situation. In her Divine epilogue, a new sect rose and demanded status quo. If the Seekers are rebuild, they easily take care of the problem. Both her and Leliana used the same approach in stopping the sects, though hardened Leliana went to a more bloodier route to those who oppose her.

 

As for comparison of hardened Leliana to Cassandra and Leliana, first of all the comparison cannot be made with at least some hindsight which is never good if the comparison is solely based on judge of character. I'm sure you agree that killing power hungry priests who oppose you because you took away their power is safer than persuading them? Softened Leliana is like Gandhi who will end up assassinated because some fanatics simply cannot be persuaded. Hardened Leliana is like Queen Elizabeth of England who lived a very long life and thanks to her large spy networks and political power transformed England from religious backwater with fat priests to land of art, literature and human advancement. She is usually regarded as most important woman in history of England. Actually the resemblance to Leliana is astonishing because she also killed fanatical religious leaders, removed social class requirement in many professions such as knighthood and got the love of common people and the oppressed. Oh and she had red hair 

 

I can accept the comparison if Elizabeth happened to have a bipolar personality. 

 

Also, not all of Elizabeth's reforms weren't that successful. The real test of Leliana's changes is how long will it last if something happens to her. Most of her reforms will be back to status quo as a result.

[Lulupab]

It seems you're underselling Cassandra in this situation. In her Divine epilogue, a new sect rose and demanded status quo. If the Seekers are rebuild, they easily take care of the problem. Both her and Leliana used the same approach in stopping the sects, though hardened Leliana went to a more bloodier route to those who oppose her.

Am I? Cassandra seems to have every intention to kill them if it comes to it, but ends up intimidating them. I don't think she would have hesitated if push came to shove. Her reforms are far less than Leliana's so it doesn't happen. You do realize Cassandra fully approves of hardened Leliana's actions and remains at her side right? But she calls Vivienne an outright tyrant.
 
 

I can accept the comparison if Elizabeth happened to have a bipolar personality. 
 
Also, not all of Elizabeth's reforms weren't that successful. The real test of Leliana's changes is how long will it last if something happens to her. Most of her reforms will be back to status quo as a result.

Alas Leliana is "bipolar" because DA gives the player the choices to change her "polarity" or personality. So its not her fault. There is a lot of similarities between hardened Leliana and Queen Elizabeth, at that point Leliana is no longer bipolar, she is simply hardened.

As for results, that's always a risk. Leliana achieves a lot more than Cassandra and Vivienne. Queen Elizabeth's changes stayed because the people tasted equality and they were much harder to manipulate after that. If the next ruler wanted to revert her changes he/she would face opposition from majority. Same is the case with Leliana, its a risk if she is killed but if she is able keep the situation for a while, people will get used to it and will demand it from the next rulers. All the rulers who made positive changes in history took this risk.

[Steelcan]

I take it you actually don't know a whole lot about Elizabeth I.

 

Seeing as how many of her reforms were overturned shortly after her death, she became very unpopular later in life, and a whole host of other things that a good historical PR team have managed to push under the rug.

[Daerog]

Leliana did more?

It seemed to me they all end up accomplishing the same amount of work. Specifically, it mentions Cass doing many reforms, Lel opening the Chantry to other races (not that there was a doctrine opposing it to begin with, but she actually encourages other races to join I guess), and Viv opens up opportunities for mages in the Chantry. What isn't specifically said, and what I assume, will be the same reforms will appear no matter the Divine when we return to the south.

A difference is that Vivienne actually embodies an... "advancement," since she is a mage.

Apparently the southern Chantry had no doctrines opposing mages from becoming clergy.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Leliana did more?

It seemed to me they all end up accomplishing the same amount of work. Specifically, it mentions Cass doing many reforms, Lel opening the Chantry to other races (not that there was a doctrine opposing it to begin with, but she actually encourages other races to join I guess), and Viv opens up opportunities for mages in the Chantry. What isn't specifically said, and what I assume, will be the same reforms will appear no matter the Divine when we return to the south.

A difference is that Vivienne actually embodies an... "advancement," since she is a mage.

Apparently the southern Chantry had no doctrines opposing mages from becoming clergy.

Leliana does reforms for nonhumans, mages, and humans.

Name me one thing Viv does to help nonhumans.

Name the specific things Cass does to reform the chantry?

We know what Leliana does but not what the two do.

Also, yes, that doctrine of 'magic should never rule man' is pretty explicit about things like not letting a Mage be divine.

[Lulupab]

I take it you actually don't know a whole lot about Elizabeth I.
 
Seeing as how many of her reforms were overturned shortly after her death, she became very unpopular later in life, and a whole host of other things that a good historical PR team have managed to push under the rug.

Not exactly, the Tudor line ended so obviously they were to be changes, but the secular changes and advancement over religion brought by her never went away.

[Xilizhra]

Leliana did more?

It seemed to me they all end up accomplishing the same amount of work. Specifically, it mentions Cass doing many reforms, Lel opening the Chantry to other races (not that there was a doctrine opposing it to begin with, but she actually encourages other races to join I guess), and Viv opens up opportunities for mages in the Chantry. What isn't specifically said, and what I assume, will be the same reforms will appear no matter the Divine when we return to the south.

A difference is that Vivienne actually embodies an... "advancement," since she is a mage.

Apparently the southern Chantry had no doctrines opposing mages from becoming clergy.

The Chantry actually outright banned other races from becoming priests, along with men. And you're assuming we ever will return to the south.

[MisterJB]

The thing with Leliana is that all her ideas benefit the common people and the oppressed and these people severely outnumber the privileged and people in power. So she has the benefit of majority in mind. Some corruptions in the Chantry are revealed in DA:I, Leliana fixes them all. The sect leaders who rise against her almost immediately are obviously the sort of people who fed on this corruption, because after Leliana they can no longer have the power and resources they used to.

Not really. Leliana's reforms are all very small in scope and appeal and do nothing to curb any inequalities in society.

 

She opens the clergy to people of all genders but the vast majority of people don't want to become members of the clergy and it's not as if we had been given indication second and third daughters of nobles were given prevalence in the Chantry over peasant born women given that Grand Cleric Elthina, one step below Divine, was peasant born. So, the vast majority of people aren't affected by this.

Then there is the mage problem in which she is harming a hundred common people for the benefit of one mage (Vivenne's line that mages are outnumbered a hundred to one).

 

Leliana does not nothing to curb the rights of monarchy or nobility; she does not, for instance, create a law that forces nobles to use the local treasury to provide a legal defendant in all trials; she does not diminish the absolute power of te Orlesian Emperor by creating a constitutional monarchy or in fact, anything that would "remove power and resources from the hands of corrupt sect leaders".

 

She pursues pet agendas that won't really improve the lives of common people (ok, so men can be becomes priests. Because men were opressed in Thedosian society before...?) and they didn't even want in the first place (mage autonomy)

 

 

Go Leliana?

 

 

[Xilizhra]

Then there is the mage problem in which she is harming a hundred common people for the benefit of one mage (Vivenne's line that mages are outnumbered a hundred to one).

Prove that harm has been caused.

 

 

Leliana does not nothing to curb the rights of monarchy or nobility; she does not, for instance, create a law that forces nobles to use the local treasury to provide a legal defendant in all trials; she does not diminish the absolute power of te Orlesian Emperor by creating a constitutional monarchy or in fact, anything that would "remove power and resources from the hands of corrupt sect leaders".

None, of course, were in her power to begin with. She is, however, the only one who rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.