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Inquisitor Head-Canon: Mages and Templars


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#301
MisterJB

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Prove that harm has been caused.

Yeah, I could write about the inherent danger mages pose, present precedents and extrapolate upon the likelihood of harm being caused but we both know that would be pointless.

So, instead, rather than allow you to obscure the issue by shifting the topic, let's instead focus on what's important.

There are, at least, a hundred common person for every mage and nearly every person in Thedas fears them and with good reason considering all the harm they cause.

Ergo, despite these claims that Leliana is somehow placing the common man above corrupt elites, she is prioritizing the wants of the 1% of the population over the remaining 99%

 

 

None were, of course, in her power to begin with.

 So, basically, she hasn't really done anything to improve the life of the common man of Thedas but some people are comparing her to Ghandi.

 

She is, however, the only one who rededicates the Chantry to the principle of charity.

I'm quite curious why you think the Chantry did not embody charity before and will now if Leliana becomes Divine.

I'm going to guess it's mostly because the epilogue said so.



#302
Xilizhra

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Yeah, I could write about the inherent danger mages pose, present precedents and extrapolate upon the likelihood of harm being caused but we both know that would be pointless.

So, instead, rather than allow you to obscure the issue by shifting the topic, let's instead focus on what's important.

There are, at least, a hundred common person for every mage and nearly every person in Thedas fears them and with good reason considering all the harm they cause.

Ergo, despite these claims that Leliana is somehow placing the common man above corrupt elites, she is prioritizing the wants of the 1% of the population over the remaining 99%

Odd, given that mages are said to enjoy unprecedented acceptance throughout Thedas if Leliana is Divine and there was an alliance.

 

 

I'm quite curious why you think the Chantry did not embody charity before and will now if Leliana becomes Divine.

I'm going to guess it's mostly because the epilogue said so.

That's what epilogues are for, no? And Cassandra makes the same criticism, though without any accompanying actions that we know of.



#303
Iakus

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The Chantry actually outright banned other races from becoming priests, along with men. And you're assuming we ever will return to the south.

There was no ban on nonhumans becoming priests or even Templars in the Chantry.  But it is rare due to racial bias.

 

And I think we'll eventually head south again at some point. There are still so many places left to see:  Nevarra, Antiva, Rivain, the Anderfels.  Heck we only saw a tiny piece of the Free Marches. 


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#304
LobselVith8

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There was no ban on nonhumans becoming priests or even Templars in the Chantry.  But it is rare due to racial bias.

 

And I think we'll eventually head south again at some point. There are still so many places left to see:  Nevarra, Antiva, Rivain, the Anderfels.  Heck we only saw a tiny piece of the Free Marches. 

 

Well, the Epilogue with Leliana becoming Divine says: "She opens the priesthood to other races, declares support for the Inquisition, and rededicates the Chantry to the principal of charity."


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#305
DementedSheep

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There was no ban on nonhumans becoming priests or even Templars in the Chantry.  But it is rare due to racial bias.

 

And I think we'll eventually head south again at some point. There are still so many places left to see:  Nevarra, Antiva, Rivain, the Anderfels.  Heck we only saw a tiny piece of the Free Marches. 

Not sure about the templars but according to Mother Giselle priesthood IS restricted ("officially" because non humans are seen as having fallen further from the maker) not just unlikely and Leliana would not have had to make it open if it was already.


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#306
Dai Grepher

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A little late, but I just wanted to add that Vivienne is politically motivated and self-interested, but she knows where to draw the line. She recommends Cassandra for Divine because she believes in her ability and agrees with her views. Vivienne does not advocate herself as divine. The Inquisitor has to be the one to suggest it, and it isn't until the Inquisitor suggests it that she actually entertains the idea. That or if she just so happens to be chosen by the Chantry through no fault of her own.

#307
Iakus

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Well, the Epilogue with Leliana becoming Divine says: "She opens the priesthood to other races, declares support for the Inquisition, and rededicates the Chantry to the principal of charity."

Someone needs to talk to Brother Burkel then.. <_<



#308
Xilizhra

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Someone needs to talk to Brother Burkel then.. <_<

Brother. Not revered mother. Men and nonhumans can be sworn into the Chantry's service, but they can't be priests.

 

 

 

A little late, but I just wanted to add that Vivienne is politically motivated and self-interested, but she knows where to draw the line. She recommends Cassandra for Divine because she believes in her ability and agrees with her views. Vivienne does not advocate herself as divine. The Inquisitor has to be the one to suggest it, and it isn't until the Inquisitor suggests it that she actually entertains the idea. That or if she just so happens to be chosen by the Chantry through no fault of her own.

Vivienne is covertly trying to suggest herself through that whole conversation.



#309
DementedSheep

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Someone needs to talk to Brother Burkel then.. <_<

"Mothers" are priests (refereed to as Revered Mother if they are at the head of branch). Brother and Sister are the honorifics used for everyone else who works within the chantry but is not a priest. Only Tiventer has male priests. 



#310
sniper_arrow

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A little late, but I just wanted to add that Vivienne is politically motivated and self-interested, but she knows where to draw the line. She recommends Cassandra for Divine because she believes in her ability and agrees with her views. Vivienne does not advocate herself as divine. The Inquisitor has to be the one to suggest it, and it isn't until the Inquisitor suggests it that she actually entertains the idea. That or if she just so happens to be chosen by the Chantry through no fault of her own.

 

Actually, if your approval with Vivienne is high enough, you'll get a scene with her introducing you to Bastien's sister and son. If you talk to Josephine after that scene, she'll tell you that Vivienne was considering putting her name as a Divine candidate and Bastien's sister was part of the College of Clerics. 



#311
Iakus

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"Mothers" are priests (refereed to as Revered Mother if they are at the head of branch). Brother and Sister are the honorifics used for everyone else who works within the chantry but is not a priest. Only Tiventer has male priests. 

It's not quite as cut and dried as that:

 

http://dragonage.wik...antry_Hierarchy



#312
Gervaise

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Yes, Vivienne was always angling after being Divine and pulling all her strings to achieve it.   The reason she would recommend Cassandra over Leliana is if you mention the subject to her and ask her opinion of the two of them.   She is not sincere about it though.   So far as she is concerned the only really suitable person is herself.   Listen to her description of the attributes a Divine requires and that pretty much confirms it.


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#313
Xilizhra

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It's not quite as cut and dried as that:

 

http://dragonage.wik...antry_Hierarchy

It kind of is. Affirmed, initiates, and clerics are all not priests.



#314
Gervaise

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Poor old Brother Burkel has the double disadvantage of being both a non-human and a male.   The odds were really stacked against him, although as a dwarf who decided to set up a branch of the Chantry in Orzammar, he obviously likes a challenge.  



#315
DementedSheep

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It's not quite as cut and dried as that:

 

http://dragonage.wik...antry_Hierarchy

What part of that makes it less cut and dried? because I don't see anything in that  page that contradicts this. I suppose if you want to be pedantic they can also be an "elder" and there is of course a "grand chancellor" but that's still not a priest and they're still low ranked. 



#316
LobselVith8

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Poor old Brother Burkel has the double disadvantage of being both a non-human and a male.   The odds were really stacked against him, although as a dwarf who decided to set up a branch of the Chantry in Orzammar, he obviously likes a challenge.  

 

I wonder what Burkel does with his life if you don't help him (my Surana never assisted him in creating a Chantry in Orzammar).



#317
Gervaise

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Strangely enough he is probably better off if you don't help him, at least so far as his long term survival is concerned, because he is probably just seen as an eccentric fool and not enough of a threat to kill.   May be he just ends up going to the surface to live and ends up in one of the Chantries there.

 

I liked helping him because of the assistance he then gives to the poor of dust town but then he gets murdered, causing all sorts of trouble, so as always the best intentions do not always have the best result.    I was rather hopeful that away from the surface his Chantry would be more of a charitable organisation than the political entity up top, actually following the moral teaching of the Chant rather than constantly sucking up to the nobility.   It was probably naïve and too much to hope for.

 

Subsequently I have grown to despise the Chantry and wouldn't dream of encouraging its establishment anywhere.   In hindsight I'd have advised Burkel to follow the moral teaching and even acknowledge the Maker but not call the organisation a Chantry because that is not what the Maker or Andraste intended.   



#318
Iakus

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What part of that makes it less cut and dried? because I don't see anything in that  page that contradicts this. I suppose if you want to be pedantic they can also be an "elder" and there is of course a "grand chancellor" but that's still not a priest and they're still low ranked. 

Low ranked, yes, but still avowed clerics.



#319
LobselVith8

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Strangely enough he is probably better off if you don't help him, at least so far as his long term survival is concerned, because he is probably just seen as an eccentric fool and not enough of a threat to kill.   May be he just ends up going to the surface to live and ends up in one of the Chantries there.

 

That might be for the best.

 

I liked helping him because of the assistance he then gives to the poor of dust town but then he gets murdered, causing all sorts of trouble, so as always the best intentions do not always have the best result.    I was rather hopeful that away from the surface his Chantry would be more of a charitable organisation than the political entity up top, actually following the moral teaching of the Chant rather than constantly sucking up to the nobility.   It was probably naïve and too much to hope for.

 

Nothing wrong with hope. :)

 

Subsequently I have grown to despise the Chantry and wouldn't dream of encouraging its establishment anywhere.   In hindsight I'd have advised Burkel to follow the moral teaching and even acknowledge the Maker but not call the organisation a Chantry because that is not what the Maker or Andraste intended.   

 

That could have been a better alternative, although I wonder if he would have proceeded with a non-religious group given his strong intent to bring the Chant to the people (his views on the dwarves following another faith rubbed me the wrong way, even though I don't think he was villainous or anything like that).



#320
DementedSheep

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Low ranked, yes, but still avowed clerics.

A cleric is not a priest. We're not debating if they can become a low ranked cleric. It's priesthood that is explicitly restricted to human women unless Leliana is divine.  



#321
GoldenGail3

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That all is well in my world state; the Allied Templars are okay, and Hardened Divine Leliana is not about to killed any time soon..



#322
SgtSteel91

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I wonder if Hardened Leliana is about as well protected as a Softened Leliana with the Inquisition acting as her honor guard? (That was my #1 reason for keeping the Inquisition)



#323
LobselVith8

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So I've seen a lot of posts on the forums throughout the last couple of months debating on what choice is best; Mages or Templars.

 

What I'm more curious of however, is what was your Inquisitor's reasoning beyond the meta-game for wanting to side with either of the two factions?
Was it; political, personal, ethical, practical or spontaneous?

 

Well, Revas was a Dalish mage, so he viewed magic as a "gift of the Creators"; I suppose that falls under his ethical, personal, and even religious perspective on the matter. Like Merrill, he thought it was "wasteful for humans to lock their mages away where they can't do any good."

 

Honestly, I imagine my Surana Warden would have gotten more involved with the College of the Enchanters (once the dust settled); he asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence after the Fifth Blight.

 

What about you guys?
Do you like to conjure a head-canon for your choices in DA:I? Or do you just pick what seems more interesting?

 

I do what fits the respective character I'm playing as.



#324
Dean_the_Young

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I think you are being a bit subjective here.

 

More than you? Perish the thought.
 

 

 

The mages Vivienne kills are no less rebellious than sect leaders Leliana kills, one cannot be be justified without the other. Its just that these sects leaders are specifically out to get Leliana while the mages just don't want to be locked up in the circles again. I think the implication is clear. Taking aggression when you are absolutely sure you are going to be targeted is actually a defensive move. You know what they say, best defense is a good...

 

 

Hypocrisy?

 

The mages Vivienne kills are killed after rebelling against sanctioned leader who, by the laws of the recognized legitimate authorities of the land, has the position to make such calls on sanctioned mage gatherings. The political opponents Leliana kills are not in revolt, and no law in the land allows the Chantry to summarily execute dissidents or non-believers (though, considering that Leliana is the one changing doctrine, even that label is suspect).

 

 

The thing with Leliana is that all her ideas benefit the common people and the oppressed and these people severely outnumber the privileged and people in power. So she has the benefit of majority in mind. Some corruptions in the Chantry are revealed in DA:I, Leliana fixes them all. The sect leaders who rise against her almost immediately are obviously the sort of people who fed on this corruption, because after Leliana they can no longer have the power and resources they used to.

 

 

Lelaiana's reforms, to date, have not uniquely benefited 'the common people' as defined by majoritarian, class, or power dynamics.

 

The foremost beneficiaries of her reign are the mages- who, on many levels, have sever power imbalances in their favor over all non-mages, while Leliana systemically removes the few proven checks on them that Thedas has ever seen.

 

The secondary beneficiaries of her reign are the elves... who are not a majority by any means, and were not oppressed by the Chantry. They suffered fromthe local authorities and bigoted persons that the Chantry already wasn't sanctioning in their bigotry and oppression, and their oppressors remain firmly in power. The Cantical is a symbol of oppression- restoring it does not actually change their status in society.

 

The third beneficiary in her reign are those who were previously restricted from entering the priesthood, which, while restrictive, was far from a common point of contention to the people of Thedas. As the Chantry religious leadership was restricted by gender and race, not class, this will most benefit those already within the Chantry or most able to take advantage of the opportunities... which would be the nobility, who on top of sons (and daughters) already serving in the establishment, have the financial means to have competitive advantage in accessing the new opportunities even as the slots are nominally open to all.

 

 

As for comparison of hardened Leliana to Cassandra and Leliana, first of all the comparison cannot be made with at least some hindsight which is never good if the comparison is solely based on judge of character. I'm sure you agree that killing power hungry priests who oppose you because you took away their power is safer than persuading them? Softened Leliana is like Gandhi who will end up assassinated because some fanatics simply cannot be persuaded. Hardened Leliana is like Queen Elizabeth of England who lived a very long life and thanks to her large spy networks and political power transformed England from religious backwater with fat priests to land of art, literature and human advancement. She is usually regarded as most important woman in history of England. Actually the resemblance to Leliana is astonishing because she also killed fanatical religious leaders, removed social class requirement in many professions such as knighthood and got the love of common people and the oppressed. Oh and she had red hair  ;)

 

 

 

We are posters in a forum evaluating a fictional character, not justifying a role-playing decision in the moment. We are absolutely entitled to use hindsight, and side-sight, and even foresight.

 

Choice of historical comparison aside- if you want to choose a leader who made enduring social changes there are far better, albeit less authoritarian, leaders to choose from- the argument you make to defend Leliana  can just as well be used to describe Vivienne. Crushing a rebellion is 'safer' than letting it fester. The merits of concentrating power in an institution built around one's self.
 

 

 

As for circles, Leliana disbands the old circle system. "Circle" is just a name at this point, she gives the freedom to mages to create whatever institution they prefer. They create the college, they could have created another version of Circleif they wanted, like Vivienne does. No one was stopping them, certainly not Leliana. Leliana is the only divine that gives a choice to the mages instead of dictating one for them and they always end up creating the college, which says a lot here.

 

Indeed- it says that people will always grasp for as much power as they can get away with, which is very concerning when the people in question have a very recent history of being reckless, undisciplined, and outright incompetent while being ambivalent or worse on the well-being of anyone but themselves.

 

 

The Mages who want the College most are also the mages who thought Fiona- one of the most disastrous leaders in modern mage history- was a good person to follow. If you thought defending Xil was fun, you're going to love defending Fiona.


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#325
Dean_the_Young

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Strangely enough he is probably better off if you don't help him, at least so far as his long term survival is concerned, because he is probably just seen as an eccentric fool and not enough of a threat to kill.   May be he just ends up going to the surface to live and ends up in one of the Chantries there.

 

I liked helping him because of the assistance he then gives to the poor of dust town but then he gets murdered, causing all sorts of trouble, so as always the best intentions do not always have the best result.    I was rather hopeful that away from the surface his Chantry would be more of a charitable organisation than the political entity up top, actually following the moral teaching of the Chant rather than constantly sucking up to the nobility.   It was probably naïve and too much to hope for.

 

Subsequently I have grown to despise the Chantry and wouldn't dream of encouraging its establishment anywhere.   In hindsight I'd have advised Burkel to follow the moral teaching and even acknowledge the Maker but not call the organisation a Chantry because that is not what the Maker or Andraste intended.   

 

A charity-minded dwarf is murdered by a contemptable system for being better... and subsequently you grew to hate the Chantry?