A charity-minded dwarf is murdered by a contemptable system for being better... and subsequently you grew to hate the Chantry?
You seem to be conflating Gervaise's view of the Chantry with the progression of the games with what happened back in Origins.
Well, when people describe an event and then claim that subsequently to it, their attitude on something changed, others assume one was caused by the other. Otherwise, this makes just as much sense:
"I got up in the morning and made some breakfast. Upon realizing that my decision to save money by not having bread delivered to my door left me bereft of it this morning, I decided to go to the store.
Then, I grew to despise the Chantry."
Well, when people describe an event and then claim that subsequently to it, their attitude on something changed, others assume one was caused by the other. Otherwise, this makes just as much sense:
"I got up in the morning and made some breakfast. Upon realizing that my decision to save money by not having bread delivered to my door left me bereft of it this morning, I decided to go to the store.
Then, I grew to despise the Chantry."
You're ignoring how Gervaise already addressed that she took issue with the Chantry in Origins, and that she explains how the later games simply compounded her issues with the Chantry. Your example really doesn't make any sense, much less in a thread that is supposed to be about "head-canon".
You're ignoring English grammar rules.
You're ignoring English grammar rules.
I'm pretty certain there's a better use of your time than harassing people on this forum.
Correcting someone is harassment now?
of course, as is disagreementCorrecting someone is harassment now?
Brother. Not revered mother. Men and nonhumans can be sworn into the Chantry's service, but they can't be priests.
Vivienne is covertly trying to suggest herself through that whole conversation.
Actually, if your approval with Vivienne is high enough, you'll get a scene with her introducing you to Bastien's sister and son. If you talk to Josephine after that scene, she'll tell you that Vivienne was considering putting her name as a Divine candidate and Bastien's sister was part of the College of Clerics.
Yes, Vivienne was always angling after being Divine and pulling all her strings to achieve it. The reason she would recommend Cassandra over Leliana is if you mention the subject to her and ask her opinion of the two of them. She is not sincere about it though. So far as she is concerned the only really suitable person is herself. Listen to her description of the attributes a Divine requires and that pretty much confirms it.
Lelaiana's reforms, to date, have not uniquely benefited 'the common people' as defined by majoritarian, class, or power dynamics.
The foremost beneficiaries of her reign are the mages- who, on many levels, have sever power imbalances in their favor over all non-mages, while Leliana systemically removes the few proven checks on them that Thedas has ever seen.
The secondary beneficiaries of her reign are the elves... who are not a majority by any means, and were not oppressed by the Chantry. They suffered fromthe local authorities and bigoted persons that the Chantry already wasn't sanctioning in their bigotry and oppression, and their oppressors remain firmly in power. The Cantical is a symbol of oppression- restoring it does not actually change their status in society.
The third beneficiary in her reign are those who were previously restricted from entering the priesthood, which, while restrictive, was far from a common point of contention to the people of Thedas. As the Chantry religious leadership was restricted by gender and race, not class, this will most benefit those already within the Chantry or most able to take advantage of the opportunities... which would be the nobility, who on top of sons (and daughters) already serving in the establishment, have the financial means to have competitive advantage in accessing the new opportunities even as the slots are nominally open to all.
By outright recommending Cassandra as Divine and showing approval if you agree that Cassandra would be best? Strange strategy she has there.
She knows that she's a long shot, and she'd be satisfied with Cassandra. Beforehand, she lists characteristics she sees herself as having, before saying that Cassandra only has one.
By outright recommending Cassandra as Divine and showing approval if you agree that Cassandra would be best? Strange strategy she has there.
Given the Chantry's prejudice against mages, if she came out and recommended herself she'd be seen as a grasping mage trying to grab power. Which she is, but she can't appear as such. It's the same reason Prince Hans in Frozen spent most of the film pretending like he didn't want the throne of Arendelle - that he was just in love with Anna, he just wanted to help the people in a crisis, he was just trying trying to save them from Elsa, etc. If he came out and made it clear he wanted the throne from the start, everyone would have looked right through him and said, "We see why you're acting so helpful. You just want the throne!" and the jig would have been up before it began.
Granted, Vivienne has less of a shot as Han, but for her to have any hope of being elected she has to act like she wouldn't pursue it. The Chantry looks down on mages trying to grab power (thanks to Tevinter) and would only consider a mage who acts like she thinks mages shouldn't have too much power and would only use her to serve the status quo if, say, someone else did give her power.
As Xilizhra said, Vivienne acts like she doesn't want the Sunburst Throne for herself, outwardly supports other candidates, then lists qualities for a good leader that all happen to describe herself, while "admitting" that Cassandra has one or two qualities she listed. Probably covertly hoping that either the one she approves of gets it (since Cassandra is more conservative than Leliana), or hope someone (possibly the Inquisitor) recommends herself through the power of suggestion.
I don't buy it.
It's not the Inquisitor that technically picks the next Divine, it's the Grand Clerics. If she manipulates a conservative Inqusiitor's fear mongering of mages or a mage inquisitor showboating, then Vivienne could still be Divine even if they intended Cassandra. The conservatives who want the Circle as it was before with mages crushed under heel or the mage Inquisitors who think one of their own could do a better job but still like the Circle pushes the South one step closer to the Imperium ironically.
It's Magister Urian Nihalias and Lambert Van Reeves all over again.
She knows that she's a long shot, and she'd be satisfied with Cassandra. Beforehand, she lists characteristics she sees herself as having, before saying that Cassandra only has one.
Given the Chantry's prejudice against mages, if she came out and recommended herself she'd be seen as a grasping mage trying to grab power. Which she is, but she can't appear as such.
Granted, Vivienne has less of a shot as Han, but for her to have any hope of being elected she has to act like she wouldn't pursue it.
The Chantry looks down on mages trying to grab power (thanks to Tevinter) and would only consider a mage who acts like she thinks mages shouldn't have too much power and would only use her to serve the status quo if, say, someone else did give her power.
As Xilizhra said, Vivienne acts like she doesn't want the Sunburst Throne for herself, outwardly supports other candidates, then lists qualities for a good leader that all happen to describe herself, while "admitting" that Cassandra has one or two qualities she listed.
Probably covertly hoping that either the one she approves of gets it (since Cassandra is more conservative than Leliana), or hope someone (possibly the Inquisitor) recommends herself through the power of suggestion.
Correcting someone is harassment now?
of course, as is disagreement
Wow, beat me to it.
She benefits a female Hawke who wants to get it on with Sebastian.
Ah, but Xil would never want to get it on with Sebastian.
Wow, beat me to it.
I pointed out that you complained about something that Gervaise already addressed in her post, and rather than concede you were wrong, you simply agreed with someone making a snide remark to me (who also ignored that you were complaining about something that Gervaise already explained).
I pointed out that you complained about something that Gervaise already addressed in her post, and rather than concede you were wrong, you simply agreed with someone making a snide remark to me (who also ignored that you were complaining about something that Gervaise already explained).
I pointed out that you complained about something that Gervaise already addressed in her post, and rather than concede you were wrong, you simply agreed with someone making a snide remark to me (who also ignored that you were complaining about something that Gervaise already explained).
Oh, hey, it's like someone covered this.
Correcting someone is harassment now?
Big surprise, I know.
Gervaise made a poorly structured post in which a conclusion did not match the logical flow. Your attempt to white-knight for it doesn't make it any better.
Seems rather typical of Dean. Has she ever conceded a point?
Yup. Plenty of times- particularly on corrections of lore critical to supporting one's position. It just tends to happen with people who credibly support what they're talking about, when they bother to actually address points raised. Lobsel frequently fails the later- I think his best one was a multi-month necro to get the last word in a thread- while I believe the invitation for that codex of yours had been standing for about, oh, a year and a half now?
Also, she seems to ignore some of the misinformation her side says like Vivienne only showing the grand cleric around Skyhold if you prefer one candidate rather than that being her max friendship scene that happens regardless.
My side?
Dear child, if I had to quibble with everyone who made a poor argument, I'd never have time to do anything fun... and I'd never leave you alone.
I make my own arguments, for my own positions, when I want to. As Vivienne's tour for the grand cleric is inconsequential to my position, why should I care?
Big surprise, I know.
Gervaise made a poorly structured post in which a conclusion did not match the logical flow. Your attempt to white-knight for it doesn't make it any better.
Actually, it was fairly easy to read. You made a mistake. It's certainly not the first one you've made.
Yup. Plenty of times- particularly on corrections of lore critical to supporting one's position. It just tends to happen with people who credibly support what they're talking about, when they bother to actually address points raised. Lobsel frequently fails the later- I think his best one was a multi-month necro to get the last word in a thread- while I believe the invitation for that codex of yours had been standing for about, oh, a year and a half now?
If your inability to read Gervaise's post properly is any indication, I don't think the fault lies with other people.
I'm pretty certain there's a better use of your time than harassing people on this forum.
I choose the Templars because of the points Vivienne made about it all. I don't care about her ambitions behind what she says, what she said was right.
I choose the Templars because of the points Vivienne made about it all. I don't care about her ambitions behind what she says, what she said was right.
OK this is getting personal guys, don't you agree?
In some cases two side never win an argument, like Democrats versus Republicans or two lawyers arguing with no judge to conclude the argument. Leliana vs Vivienne has been the most active debate topic for me and I think I could write a book about it if I complied everything I wrote on this forum. For now I will agree to disagree on this matter because nowadays I no longer have the time to type 1000+ word posts on this forum daily.
However this is some evidence on change of view of people regarding mages if you side with them, granted its just a conversation but its better than nothing which is the proof that people's view doesn't change. I promised to post it when I had time some pages ago:
Yup. Plenty of times- particularly on corrections of lore critical to supporting one's position. It just tends to happen with people who credibly support what they're talking about, when they bother to actually address points raised. Lobsel frequently fails the later- I think his best one was a multi-month necro to get the last word in a thread- while I believe the invitation for that codex of yours had been standing for about, oh, a year and a half now?
I did find the codex. Here it is:
She makes very compelling arguments on the whole situation and I'm pretty pro mage anti circle. Don't get all the hate on her character, nothing wrong with being ambitious and out for yourself. Most people always put themselves first whether they want to admit it or not.
While I'm speaking for myself, it's likely that other people share this same opinion:
The reasons I hate Vivienne are that she is an unbelievable elitist. Seriously, many of her comments are essentially her saying that the Inquisitor shouldn't appeal to commoners, that the Inquisition doesn't need filthy commoners, and all sorts of stuff showing how she thinks she's better than everyone else.
The second is her blatant hypocrisy regarding the Circle. She's a big proponent of forcing mages back into circles with no reforms despite her not having to live in a Circle. She lives in a mansion with a Duke and is popular in the Orlesian court yet has no problem saying that mages should be forced to stay in Circles and never enjoy the same benefits she's enjoying. She'd never consider actually living in a circle and dealing with the restrictions the average mage has to endure. This isn't even getting into the fact that Viv has no problem essentially causing a mage civil war in the divine leliana world states merely because she doesn't have power considering she even admits the circle is a good place to train mages. So in other words, all her talk about mages and circles rings hollow when she doesn't have to endure the same restrictions other mages do and is totally willing to screw with a working college merely because she doesn't have power.
While I'm speaking for myself, it's likely that other people share this same opinion:
The reasons I hate Vivienne are that she is an unbelievable elitist. Seriously, many of her comments are essentially her saying that the Inquisitor shouldn't appeal to commoners, that the Inquisition doesn't need filthy commoners, and all sorts of stuff showing how she thinks she's better than everyone else.
The second is her blatant hypocrisy regarding the Circle. She's a big proponent of forcing mages back into circles with no reforms despite her not having to live in a Circle. She lives in a mansion with a Duke and is popular in the Orlesian court yet has no problem saying that mages should be forced to stay in Circles and never enjoy the same benefits she's enjoying. She'd never consider actually living in a circle and dealing with the restrictions the average mage has to endure. This isn't even getting into the fact that Viv has no problem essentially causing a mage civil war in the divine leliana world states merely because she doesn't have power considering she even admits the circle is a good place to train mages. So in other words, all her talk about mages and circles rings hollow when she doesn't have to endure the same restrictions other mages do and is totally willing to screw with a working college merely because she doesn't have power.
Yep, even in her introduction she is very causal about freezing a man, and will even kill him if asked, for some insults and grandstanding. If that scene was meant to make her look cool it doesn't, it makes her look like she's power tripping. She chastises the rebals for doing things that are going to make mages look worse when she is pulling this sort of ****?
Although yes, she dose make some good points regardless of motive.
While I'm speaking for myself, it's likely that other people share this same opinion:
The reasons I hate Vivienne are that she is an unbelievable elitist. Seriously, many of her comments are essentially her saying that the Inquisitor shouldn't appeal to commoners, that the Inquisition doesn't need filthy commoners, and all sorts of stuff showing how she thinks she's better than everyone else.
The second is her blatant hypocrisy regarding the Circle. She's a big proponent of forcing mages back into circles with no reforms despite her not having to live in a Circle. She lives in a mansion with a Duke and is popular in the Orlesian court yet has no problem saying that mages should be forced to stay in Circles and never enjoy the same benefits she's enjoying. She'd never consider actually living in a circle and dealing with the restrictions the average mage has to endure. This isn't even getting into the fact that Viv has no problem essentially causing a mage civil war in the divine leliana world states merely because she doesn't have power considering she even admits the circle is a good place to train mages. So in other words, all her talk about mages and circles rings hollow when she doesn't have to endure the same restrictions other mages do and is totally willing to screw with a working college merely because she doesn't have power.
Oh I absolutely agree that she is an elitist. In this type of dark fantasy setting I just don't have an issue with her being so. For a companion status even those of past games Vivienne is... different and that led to it being refreshing for me. She not about helping "every" little guy out there in the grand scheme of what's going on unless it benefits her or the Inquisitor. Really, what have commoners done for her other than fear her as a mage? What have rebel mages done other than make commoners fear her kind more than ever and incite a war. She was in a no win situation and sought to join the Inquisition as a means of getting some power. She does what she has to and makes no apologies for it. Hell, at least she's honest about it. The only things she suffers from imo is writing on her background and explaining why she is so good at the Game. She literally takes a position that was meant as a court jester and turned it into a powerful position under the Queen. Would have looked to see more political manipulations especially concerning Wicked Hearts. On her restrictions for the circles that is the only way she would even be remotely accepted by the Chantry and it's Templars. Hypocrite yes, but having power is worth it to her it seems.Yep, even in her introduction she very causal about freezing a man, and will even kill him if asked, for some insults and grandstanding. If that scene was meant to make her look cool it doesn't, it makes her look she likes power tripping. She chastises the rebals for doing things that are going to make mages look worse when she is pulling this sort of ****?
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