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[Sports72Xtrm]

She makes very compelling arguments on the whole situation and I'm pretty pro mage anti circle. Don't get all the hate on her character, nothing wrong with being ambitious and out for yourself. Most people always put themselves first whether they want to admit it or not.

 

Vivienne's views on the mages are hypocritical but more than that, I just find so many faults in her character and her reforms. Yes, her ability to obtain power is commendable, but the reasons she's doing it- to consolidate power for herself and f*** everyone else- and her means of doing it- using people and grounding them to the dirt so she can climb the ladder- are detestable. As Divine, she executes or tranquilizes anyone who doesn't like the Circle and force feeds templars lyrium leaving them retarded at worst, slaves at best. Her sycophants will probably earn some grace until they fall from favor and they become her scapegoats for her political blunders. As Grand Enchanter, she creates another mage civil war. Vivienne is the type of person who sets the world on fire just so she can be queen of the ashes. What's likeable about that? Yes everyone has ambition but what she does to satiate her ambition is monstrous. Even if you approve of her tyranny, when has tyranny ever lasted?

[Iakus]

While I'm speaking for myself, it's likely that other people share this same opinion:

 

The reasons I hate Vivienne are that she is an unbelievable elitist. Seriously, many of her comments are essentially her saying that the Inquisitor shouldn't appeal to commoners, that the Inquisition doesn't need filthy commoners, and all sorts of stuff showing how she thinks she's better than everyone else.

 

The second is her blatant hypocrisy regarding the Circle. She's a big proponent of forcing mages back into circles with no reforms despite her not having to live in a Circle. She lives in a mansion with a Duke and is popular in the Orlesian court yet has no problem saying that mages should be forced to stay in Circles and never enjoy the same benefits she's enjoying. She'd never consider actually living in a circle and dealing with the restrictions the average mage has to endure. This isn't even getting into the fact that Viv has no problem essentially causing a mage civil war in the divine leliana world states merely because she doesn't have power considering she even admits the circle is a good place to train mages. So in other words, all her talk about mages and circles rings hollow when she doesn't have to endure the same restrictions other mages do and is totally willing to screw with a working college merely because she doesn't have power.

No question she is arrogant, and even elitist.  And loves power.

 

However, while she is a proponent of the Circles, she is in favor of making the Circles a place of safety for mages, and for allowing mages a greater degree of freedom.  Remember, she lived in the Circle system for years before she became Court Enchanter or even met Bastien.  Heck it was being a Circle mage that made either of these possible.  And she's totally cool with others gaining similar benefits.  She's cool with mages leaving their Towers once they've demonstrated they aren't a threat.  She wants Tempalrs to be protectors, not jailors.  

 

To put it bluntly, Divine Vivienne removes many of the restriction on Circle mages while keeping the system as it was meant to be:  a sanctuary.

[Dai Grepher]

People mistake Vivienne as only self-serving. She is self-serving because that is what she has been taught by The Grand Game and Orlais, but her motives are to acquire power and influence so she has the ability to make positive changes that benefit all people.

She isn't hypocritical at all. She wants mages to have to be part of the Circle, but she wants the Circles improved to provide a safe and comfortable environment for mages to learn to control their powers and use them to benefit society. She is not hypocritical to live outside the Circle because that is where she is most useful, and she was already First Enchanter anyway, which allowed her special privileges that lower ranking mages didn't have. She is fine with certain mages existing outside the Circle provided they demonstrate they can be trusted. All the Circles have this policy. It's why Wynne can leave the Circle. It's why Irving can take mages to Redcliffe to help Connor. It's why mages can convene in Cumberland. It's why Ines can pick herbs in the Wending Woods. Mages can be granted leave under the right circumstances.

As for her thinking she's better than certain people or even certain classes of people, so what? She's probably right. Some people are better than others. It's a fact of life. No one would rationally argue that Vivienne and Anders are equals.

I think most people treat Vivienne unfairly.

[Ghost Gal]

Vivienne calls most Circles "too permissive" despite how she herself got to enjoy a Circle that was "permissive" enough to let her physically leave and mingle with the nobility (without Templar supervision) whenever she wanted, despite how most Circles were notorious for being too restrictive and tyrannical and wouldn't allow most mages to so much as receive letters from home, let alone leave.

 

She claims she'll use her power to benefit everyone, but when does she actually do that? Never. She attends lavish parties with equally self-serving nobles, and after Trespasser she just uses her power to keep mages locked in Circles despite how she herself spends as little time in the Circle herself, and doesn't concern herself with the abuses and human rights violations she dismisses when she hears them from other mages.

 

I wonder how she'd feel about Circles if she was forced to live in one and never physically leave? Thought not. Circles are great for other mages as long as Vivienne herself can live in her Duke lover's chateau, make appearances at Court, and frequent lavish parties as much as she wants; and she will literally sell her own kind down the river in order to maintain her own freedoms and privilege. (Since, as a Circle mage, her freedom comes from putting down her own kind to impress mage-fearing muggles.)

[Iakus]

 
As for her thinking she's better than certain people or even certain classes of people, so what? She's probably right. Some people are better than others. It's a fact of life. No one would rationally argue that Vivienne and Anders are equals.
 

Heck when you get down to it, Solas thinks he's better than other people.  Better than any Qunari.  Better than most elves (better than any city elf, certainly) and probably better than any non-mage.

[Iakus]

Vivienne calls most Circles "too permissive" despite how she herself got to enjoy a Circle that was "permissive" enough to let her physically leave and mingle with the nobility (without Templar supervision) whenever she wanted, despite how most Circles were notorious for being too restrictive and tyrannical and wouldn't allow most mages to so much as receive letters from home, let alone leave.

 

She claims she'll use her power to benefit everyone, but when does she actually do that? Never. She attends lavish parties with equally self-serving nobles, and just uses her power to keep mages locked in Circles despite how she herself spends as little time in the Circle herself, and doesn't concern herself with the abuses and human rights violations she dismisses when she hears them from other mages.

 

I wonder how she'd feel about Circles if she was forced to live in one and never physically leave? Thought not. Circles are great for other mages as long as Vivienne herself can live in her Duke lover's chateau, make appearances at Court, and frequent lavish parties as much as she wants; and she will literally sell her own kind down the river in order to maintain her own freedoms and privilege. (Since, as a Circle mage, her freedom comes from putting down her own kind to impress mage-fearing muggles.)

Vivienne's the First Enchanter of the Monstsimmard Circle.  The only one to remain with the Chantry.  That tells me that she managed to keep the mages under her care happy enough that they didn't run off with Fiona.  While at the same time keeping the Templars from coming down on her.

 

I'd say she used her power to benefit everyone in her Circle.

 

What makes you think Vivieenne (again she is FIRST ENCHANTER of her Circle) wouldn't grant permission for others to leave? Where does that benefit her?

[Barquiel]

People mistake Vivienne as only self-serving. She is self-serving because that is what she has been taught by The Grand Game and Orlais, but her motives are to acquire power and influence so she has the ability to make positive changes that benefit all people.

Sure, she can make noise about that sort of thing...but actions speak louder than words. I mean, what positive changes did she make after she slept her way into nobility? Even before the rebelion started, mages were most oppressed than ever.

For example...according to World of Thedas 2, the outdoor "exercises" granted to SOME of the mages in the Ferelden circle happened after Irving pushed for them because he felt sorry for Anders. Which means that before Anders, they were not allowed to go outside at all (page 162)...the mage origin shows this too (we're told that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window). When Anders used that opportunity to escape, Irving took the "privilege" back ofc. So it was because of Anders they had the chance to go to the outside in the first place. And we learn in Asunder that mages in other circles have also lost all outdoor privileges after Lambert took over. Vivienne doesn't even address these points. She was also in a much better position than the rebel mages to keep the tranquil safe. Again, she did nothing.

[Dai Grepher]

Vivienne calls most Circles "too permissive" despite how she herself got to enjoy a Circle that was "permissive" enough to let her physically leave and mingle with the nobility (without Templar supervision) whenever she wanted, despite how most Circles were notorious for being too restrictive and tyrannical and wouldn't allow most mages to so much as receive letters from home, let alone leave.

Or maybe most Circles were much more permissive than her Circle. Just because she was granted special leave doesn't mean others were. She likely had to work hard to earn that trust from her Circle's Knight-Commander. And the number of Circles with outright oppression were probably far fewer than what common mages (such as Anders) claimed. Perceived injustices.

She claims she'll use her power to benefit everyone, but when does she actually do that? Never.

She got Celene to respect mages, and turned a position reserved for parlor tricks into one of arcane advisory. This very act alone improved the lot of all mages, because from that point on each new ruler of Orlais would feel compelled to continue to allow that position to exist as one of advice and recommendation. That means the rulers of Orlais would constantly consult with mages on important matters, thus giving mages a voice with the most powerful ruler in Thedas.

Also, she did put her powers and resources at the Inquisition's disposal. She ran an effective Circle, and she advocated against rebellion.

As Divine, she enacts sensible reforms that gave mages more freedom and privileges. She also allowed the College Fraternities to continue to exist.

She attends lavish parties with equally self-serving nobles, and after Trespasser she just uses her power to keep mages locked in Circles despite how she herself spends as little time in the Circle herself, and doesn't concern herself with the abuses and human rights violations she dismisses when she hears them from other mages.

No she doesn't. Don't forget that the Circles are lavish as well. Compared to the houses and even some estates, the Circles are better constructed. The Circles also have a greater flow of revenue than some cities. All that wealth goes toward providing the mages with food, shelter, a thorough education, clothes, and materials to complete their work. Compare that to what the commoners have. Living hand-to-mouth in rundown shacks. Huddling together to stay warm at night. Getting attacked by wild animals. Getting robbed whenever they do manage to get some money. Oh but they have freedom, right? Freedom to obey all the laws and commands of whatever noble lord runs that part of the countryside.

I wonder how she'd feel about Circles if she was forced to live in one and never physically leave?

You mean like how she did most of her life? She liked the Circles, and she disliked some things. Whatever her outcome after Trespasser she will work to improve the Circles regardless.

Circles are great for other mages as long as Vivienne herself can live in her Duke lover's chateau, make appearances at Court, and frequent lavish parties as much as she wants; and she will literally sell her own kind down the river in order to maintain her own freedoms and privilege. (Since, as a Circle mage, her freedom comes from putting down her own kind to impress mage-fearing muggles.)

She only puts down bad mages who are causing problems or hurting people. Circles are great for mages regardless of how Vivienne lives. That reality is separate from anything to do with her.

Heck when you get down to it, Solas thinks he's better than other people.  Better than any Qunari.  Better than most elves (better than any city elf, certainly) and probably better than any non-mage.

Eh, depends on the Solas, but he thought that way at first. Of course, his problem was that he didn't even see other people as people, yet saw spirits as people. But there is also a part of Solas that is self-hating. He sees the current "problem" with the world as his fault. He believes he should pay the price for his mistake... just not right now. The real "people" need him.

Vivienne's the First Enchanter of the Monstsimmard Circle.  The only one to remain with the Chantry.

I think Hasmal stayed with the Chantry, and I'm sure Ostwick did too. Don't know about Kinloch, but I assume it would have, especially if it was saved in Origins.

That tells me that she managed to keep the mages under her care happy enough that they didn't run off with Fiona.  While at the same time keeping the Templars from coming down on her.

I might not go that far. It's also possible that she kept them all in line through intimidation, or perhaps a mix of incentive and intimidation.

I'd say she used her power to benefit everyone in her Circle.

I agree with that.

What makes you think Vivieenne (again she is FIRST ENCHANTER of her Circle) wouldn't grant permission for others to leave? Where does that benefit her?

Exactly. Allowing mages to leave is fine so long as they are trustworthy. She wouldn't let inexperienced or troubled mages leave because any misstep on their part would reflect badly on the entire Circle.

She was strict. That doesn't mean oppressive or hypocritical. Ooh, so she wasn't a warm and fuzzy grandparent figure like Irving. Big deal. That doesn't make her bad.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sure, she can make noise about that sort of thing...but actions speak louder than words. I mean, what positive changes did she make after she slept her way into nobility? Even before the rebelion started, mages were most oppressed than ever.

For example...according to World of Thedas 2, the outdoor "exercises" granted to SOME of the mages in the Ferelden circle happened after Irving pushed for them because he felt sorry for Anders. Which means that before Anders, they were not allowed to go outside at all (page 162)...the mage origin shows this too (we're told that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window). When Anders used that opportunity to escape, Irving took the "privilege" back ofc. So it was because of Anders they had the chance to go to the outside in the first place. And we learn in Asunder that mages in other circles have also lost all outdoor privileges after Lambert took over. Vivienne doesn't even address these points. She was also in a much better position than the rebel mages to keep the tranquil safe. Again, she did nothing.

 

A woman who wasn't with the rebel mages was in a better position than the rebel mages who had the trainquil to keep the tranquil who were with the rebel mages safe?

 

 

If this is your attempt at fairness, I'd hate to see you when you're biased on something. We've no word on what happened to the Tranquil who were with Vivienne's Circle, but we certainly don't have any lore to suggest they were systemically massacred to be made into looking glasses with a warehouse of skulls right down the road.

[Dai Grepher]

Sure, she can make noise about that sort of thing...but actions speak louder than words. I mean, what positive changes did she make after she slept her way into nobility? Even before the rebelion started, mages were most oppressed than ever.

Or were they? A lot of that oppression talk is from mages who want to be problematic, who want to create strife because they feel disenfranchised.

What do any of them know about fighting bears, huh? Do they know how to survive in the wilderness? Nope. Do they know how to get along with non-mages? They can't even get along with their fellow mages. The Mage Rebellion was summed up thusly as "Leapt before they looked".

They got out into their "freedom" and fifteen minutes later said, "the wilderness suuuuuuuuuuuuucks!"

If you side with mages one of them complains about the accommodations in Haven. They're too used to lives of convenience, and why is that? Because the Circles provided lives of conveniences.

My Inquisition Achievements for a pic of Goldanna meme'd with an expression like Willy Wonka's and text stating, "Tell me again how bad your life is in the Circle."
 

For example...according to World of Thedas 2, the outdoor "exercises" granted to SOME of the mages in the Ferelden circle happened after Irving pushed for them because he felt sorry for Anders. Which means that before Anders, they were not allowed to go outside at all (page 162)...the mage origin shows this too (we're told that the only way to get out of the tower is to jump out the window). When Anders used that opportunity to escape, Irving took the "privilege" back ofc. So it was because of Anders they had the chance to go to the outside in the first place.

And Anders' fault they got it revoked. Moral of the story? One bad mage ruins it for everyone.

So what if they couldn't go outside? And do what? Swim in the lyrium saturated lake? Also remember that templars have to keep watch of the mages at all times. So allowing the mages to roam around outside on the island is a security risk. They probably don't have enough templars to watch all mages inside the tower as well as any mages wandering aimlessly outside. They are kept inside in order to group them all together in one area. That makes it easier for the templars to watch them.

Hire more templars you say? Great. As the Inquisitor might say, "What's this going to cost me exactly?" Does the Circle have the resources to employ more templars? Can it purchase and refine enough lyrium for them on a daily basis? And food? Are there enough rooms for them as well? See there's a lot more involved in these decisions than just "let the mages get some fresh air", but disgruntled mages don't think about any of that. Vivienne does though. She understands what's involved.

That's why Vivienne is in favor of noble sponsorship. It's why she makes political deals. If you want more freedoms and privileges then you need financial support and you need legal representation. That is exactly what Vivienne was building, and it wasn't just for herself because there's only so much she can enjoy. The spoils would carry over to her circle, and the mages and templars under her care would be the ones to benefit.

But no, Anders wants to go outside.

Spoiler

Anders: What do you mean I can't go outside?!

Templar: There aren't enough templars to patrol the outside.

Anders: What, it's not like I'm going to try to swim away. I'm so offended.

Templar: Well, whatever. I still can't let you outsi-

Anders: I WANNA! I WANNA, I WANNA, I WANNA!!!

Templar: *Sigh* Fine, let's go outside.

- Outside -

Anders: Why are you staring at me? You think I'm attractive or something?

Templar: No. I'm not staring. I'm guarding.

Anders: Well it's oppressive. And I greatly disapprove that you don't find me attractive. Look the other way.

Templar: No. You'll just make a run for the lake.

Anders: No I won't. You templars are so paranoid and prejudice.

Templar: *Sigh* Fine. I'm looking over here now. Happy?

Anders: ... *Runs and jumps in the lake* WOOO!!! FREEDOM!!!

Templar: *Sigh* For the love of Andraste.

 

And we learn in Asunder that mages in other circles have also lost all outdoor privileges after Lambert took over.

Ah, so they had privileges but lost them because of one person. That's a failure of that individual, not the Circle as a system of regulation.
 

Vivienne doesn't even address these points. She was also in a much better position than the rebel mages to keep the tranquil safe. Again, she did nothing.

Vivienne recognized that there were bad templars as well. The ending epilogue narrated by Morrigan states that a Divine Vivienne keeps the templars firmly leashed (if you sided with templars).

Who says she didn't help all the tranquil she could? What would you have her do? Roam the entirety of the South looking for tranquil? Did she close her doors to them? No. So what, how is she supposed to find every tranquil?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Remind me how Vivienne helps nonhumans again?

[Dean_the_Young]

Remind me how Vivienne helps nonhumans again?

 

There was that time a mage supremacist convinced the Mage Rebellion that joining an even bigger anachronistic bigot who wanted to subjugate everyone else but a mage elite was a really good idea while the world was in chaos and harming everyone...

[LobselVith8]

Or maybe most Circles were much more permissive than her Circle. Just because she was granted special leave doesn't mean others were. She likely had to work hard to earn that trust from her Circle's Knight-Commander. And the number of Circles with outright oppression were probably far fewer than what common mages (such as Anders) claimed. Perceived injustices.

 

I'd imagine that if the Circles were willing to rebel and ally themselves with Fiona's faction seeking autonomy from Chantry control, there may have been good cause to do so.

 

She got Celene to respect mages, and turned a position reserved for parlor tricks into one of arcane advisory. This very act alone improved the lot of all mages, because from that point on each new ruler of Orlais would feel compelled to continue to allow that position to exist as one of advice and recommendation. That means the rulers of Orlais would constantly consult with mages on important matters, thus giving mages a voice with the most powerful ruler in Thedas.

 

I don't see how Celene giving favor to Vivienne translates to her respecting mages in general, and we also know that Celene accepted Morrigan into her court as the new arcane advisor (which seemed to be rather immediate).

 

Also, she did put her powers and resources at the Inquisition's disposal. She ran an effective Circle, and she advocated against rebellion.

 

Vivienne certainly saw opportunity with the Inquisition, considering her attempt to become Divine. We don't really see her run her Circle to gauge her competency; we do see her pulling childish stunts like moving furniture, however, which causes me to wonder what kind of competent leader she's supposed to be if those are the antics that she gets involved with regarding people who don't agree with her.

 

As Divine, she enacts sensible reforms that gave mages more freedom and privileges. She also allowed the College Fraternities to continue to exist.

 

I suppose it's a matter of whether or not you think Vivienne's reforms are sensible or simply a continuation of the problem that existed before the crisis with the Breach. I'm partial to allying with the mages and supporting their autonomy as allies myself.

 

No she doesn't. Don't forget that the Circles are lavish as well. Compared to the houses and even some estates, the Circles are better constructed. The Circles also have a greater flow of revenue than some cities. All that wealth goes toward providing the mages with food, shelter, a thorough education, clothes, and materials to complete their work. Compare that to what the commoners have. Living hand-to-mouth in rundown shacks. Huddling together to stay warm at night. Getting attacked by wild animals. Getting robbed whenever they do manage to get some money. Oh but they have freedom, right? Freedom to obey all the laws and commands of whatever noble lord runs that part of the countryside.

 

Considering that Fiona viewed the Circle as worse than her life as an Orlesian sex slave and Anders talked about all the mage suicides, I suppose we could debate the merits of a few creature comforts while keeping the mages under Chantry control.

[Iakus]

Remind me how Vivienne helps nonhumans again?

There was that time she helped the Inquisitor seal a big hole in the sky that was raining demons... 

[Iakus]

I think Hasmal stayed with the Chantry, and I'm sure Ostwick did too. Don't know about Kinloch, but I assume it would have, especially if it was saved in Origins.
 

Ostwick eventually stayed neutral, under the leadership of Senior Enchanter Lydia (a friend of Vivienne's)  but you can find out at Redcliffe and through talking with Vivienne as a human mage that fighting broke out among the mages there and Lydia was murdered by one of her own students.

 

Edit:  And it looks like Hasmal is the opposite:  That was a Circle where the Templars largely remained loyal, and stayed to protect the remaining loyalist mages there.

[MisterJB]

Remind me how Vivienne helps nonhumans again?

Remind me how Leliana helps the nearly extinct dragons again?

What, we're not mentioning pet causes that had nothing to do with the candidate's position to begin with?

[Lulupab]

People loved Justinia and her true legacy is Leliana who as she says will try to to accomplish everything Justinia wanted and she won't hesitate like Justinia did.

 

Both Cassandra and Leliana see Vivienne as a disgrace to Justinia's legacy. I'm betting many others feel the same.

[Dean_the_Young]

People loved Justinia and her true legacy is Leliana who as she says will try to to accomplish everything Justinia wanted and she won't hesitate like Justinia did.

 

Why act like either of these are unquestionably good things?

 

If Justinia hesitated, it was because she was respecting the political realities that her views weren't inherently popular just because she believed them to be right. Other people have views on what's right too, and until she thought assassinating her own guards was being impartial she her hesitance commanded signficant respect and loyalty from the people charged with enabling her even when they disagreed with her. I'd say that was a good thing, even independent of whether what Justinia wanted Justinia should get.
 

 

Both Cassandra and Leliana see Vivienne as a disgrace to Justinia's legacy. I'm betting many others feel the same.

 

 

Why should we care?

 

Justinia was a popular politician with a mediocre success record whose popularity in large part depended on her repeatedly avoiding addressing contentious issues openly. Her legacy was to squander her public legitimacy and pretense of neutrality with significant parts of the public and nobility in regards to the mage issue, demonstrate the practical weakness of the Chantry's much-vaunted authority without a brutal and occasionally tortorous security aparatus willing to enforce it, and losing control of two-thirds of the Chantry's internationally significant institutions after repeatedly going behind the backs of and even assassinating loyal members of her own security service.

 

Justinia's legacy, besides an emotionally unstable follower with a propensity to using murder as means to settling disputes, was the Mage-Templar War. Which is hardly the sort of legacy anyone should cling too closely to. You could almost claim that she regained influence over the Templars after the previous Divine blindly deferred to them, but in the end she had even less influence than any other Divine in history.

 

I like Cassandra, but when it comes to Chantry politics Cassandra puts faith, or the pretensions of it, over pretty much any other consideration.

[Lulupab]

You cannot use flaws of people of Thedas whenever it suits you (such as their uneducated tendency to not trust magic) and disregard them whenever it supports your argument. The people will want a divine that would replace Justinia who is by now the most famous Divine is history of Thedas. The people will not care at all about Vivienne's achievements because in truth they do not see her as good replacement for Justinia as all the people care about is faith and the Chantry itself, much like Cassandra. You know how masses are.

 

Leliana and Cassandra are chosen candidates by majority while Vivienne can only be forced by Inquisition to become a candidate, this alone says a lot. Hardened Leliana is more capable than Vivienne politically or at least on same level, she is pretty much a master at grand game while still being legacy of Justinia. They are more alike than anyone cares to admit, with their main difference being treatment of mages.

[Steelcan]

You cannot use flaws of people of Thedas whenever it suits you (such as their uneducated tendency to not trust magic) and disregard them whenever it supports your argument. The people will want a divine that would replace Justinia who is by now the most famous Divine is history of Thedas. The people will not care at all about Vivienne's achievements because in truth they do not see her as good replacement for Justinia as all the people care about is faith and the Chantry itself, much like Cassandra. You know how masses are.

 

Leliana and Cassandra are chosen candidates by majority while Vivienne can only be forced by Inquisition to become a candidate, this alone says a lot. Hardened Leliana is more capable than Vivienne politically or at least on same level, she is pretty much a master at grand game while still being legacy of Justinia. They are more alike than anyone cares to admit, with their main difference being treatment of mages.

Citations needed.  Many citations are needed

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Remind me how Leliana helps the nearly extinct dragons again?

What, we're not mentioning pet causes that had nothing to do with the candidate's position to begin with?

Inquisition isn't a game where you're forced to play a human Andrastrian, so contextually it could be a very important question to the type of Inquisitor you might be playing. 

[Lulupab]

Citations needed.  Many citations are needed

 

See Vivienne as divine with no Inquisition support. There is no inquisition after Trespasser, the remnant you can keep doesn't even come close.

 

In the end Vivienne is a mage, people will never truly accept a mage overlord.

[Steelcan]

Still not cited. And mostly I was looking for citations on everything you've said about Justinia.

[Lulupab]

Still not cited. And mostly I was looking for citations on everything you've said about Justinia.

 

While there is no definitive proof, no other Divine is known as much as Justinia. Literally everyone tell you how great she was and how she was planning to bring positive change, even Vivienne. And the fact that she was made a martyr adds to this. I mean can you name another divine like her?

[Hellion Rex]

While there is no definitive proof, no other Divine is known as much as Justinia. Literally everyone tell you how great she was and hot she was planning to bring positive change, even Vivienne. And the fact that she was made a martyr adds to this. I mean can you name another divine like her?

It's quite possible that we know more about Justinia because she has been the only Divine that's been present during our actual playing of the game. She's been in a book and a game.

We can't name any other Divines because we haven't heard barely anything about any of the others.