396 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Eh, my canon is what you'd expect from a Loyalist.

Disagreed with Fiona, blamed the rebels for the death of a beloved mentor, went to Redcliffe out of courtesy due to request, hated what he witnessed (including Tranquil skulls in a shack), left the invaders to the Crown, and so he decided to check the Templars, then red v. blue happened.

Also, the Inquisition starts with a few mages and Templars, mages got bolstered by Viv, and my Inquisitor thought it would be good to have more Templars around as well... just to cover any weaknesses in the overall army... plus they are an organized military that would/could work well with the Inquisition rather than a bunch of rebellious scholars.

Just my Inquisitor's thoughts before things went red v blue.

[Hellion Rex]

My Gale was a pro-Circle mage. He had witnessed the deaths of many friends, both Templars and mages when his Circle rebelled. He thought the rebellion, while having good intentions in mind, was poorly executed and blames the rebel for much of the destruction.

Terribly bitter, and still grieving for loss of life on both sides, Gale joined the Inquisition only to witness the rebels on both sides lighting up the Ferelden countryside, utterly indifferent to the chaos and pain they were causing.

When he begrudgingly went to Redcliffe and witnessed what was happening, he was utterly furious and left the foolish rebel mages to their fate. They had made the deal with the devil, and so were lost in his eyes. Thus, he went to the Templars at Theirinfall, only to confront an envy demon that had taken the place of the Lord Seeker. Gale then placed his faith in Barris and the remaining Templars that were uncorrupted and they faithfully served the Inquisition in dealing with magical issues throughout the war against the Elder One.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Funny how it's always Mage supporters who actually provide facts and do research

 

Find that codex yet?

[sniper_arrow]

Still greater than 0, but I think Calpernia's plot rating was a good 8 out of 10. In fact, she was more interesting that Corypheus.

 

She was more interesting than Samson and Corypheus.

[Sports72Xtrm]

She was more interesting than Samson and Corypheus.

Don't find what templars eventually become interesting?

[Captain Wiseass]

"The Breach is magic, right? Mages should be able to help with that. Also, that guy leading the Templars was a dick."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My head canon for my first Inquisitor's motives was pretty straightforward. He strongly disapproved of the Mage Rebellion and he felt a magic problem like the breach could best use an army of anti-magic warriors.

[vbibbi]

"The Breach is magic, right? Mages should be able to help with that. Also, that guy leading the Templars was a dick."

 

 

The arguments pro mage and pro templar in regards to helping close the Breach are fairly flimsy anyway. Both are just hoping for the best as there's no research done on the Anchor or the Breach. The Breach and the rifts are immune to standard magic so amplifying the mark or nullifying the magic around the Breach could just as easily do nothing. Luckily the power of plot compels it to work.

[Daerog]

Power of plot and assistance of the dread wolf.

[vbibbi]

Power of plot and assistance of the dread wolf.

 

Is it implied that it's actually Solas who is helping close the Breach? I thought he had examined it and smaller rifts while we were unconscious in Haven and wasn't able to close them. And he doesn't have any reason to want rifts to remain open, that was an unintended side effect of Cory unlocking the orb. Of course, if Solas had been able to close rifts then it's possible that he and the Inquisitor would have been used as foot soldiers of the Inquisition and that's not a position would have wanted to place himself in...

[veeia]

My reasons for each character:

 

Dwarven Rogue - Huge mage supporter, went immediately to them, allied with them because she felt it was the right thing to do.

Dwarven Rogue - Went to Redcliffe because at least Fiona was willing to talk plus at this point he was still concerned about opportunities in the lyrium trade, then once wrapped up in the time magic, wanted to stop it immediately. Allied with the mages because he felt that willing allies would be more useful, but immediately talked to Vivienne about security.

Dalish Mage - Went to Redcliffe because she was wary of Templars and the Lord Seeker was rude as heck, then ran screaming out of there when Tevinter was involved. She had no solidarity with the Circle and was fine with leaving them to their fate.  Allied with the Templars because she thought allying with them was the safest option and that they'd be useful.

Qunari Mage - Went straight to the Templars because she hated both of them, but Cullen's reasons for using the Templars instead of mages made sense to her, plus she had a lot of resentment at the mages for the rebellion and lacked any experience in the Circle to have context for why it happened. Disbanded the Templars because she was not fond of them either.

Human Warrior -  Went to Redcliffe to gather information since he had been invited, then after learning of the Tevinter alliance & time magic was enraged and determined to fix it. Conscripted the mages because his experience had reinforced what he always thought: that mages needed supervision.

 

I've had fun coming up with different paths, but it does mean that I weirdly have only had mages do the Templar side and not done the Mages side with an actual mage. At some point I'll do a human mage probably and run that.

[Daerog]

Is it implied that it's actually Solas who is helping close the Breach? I thought he had examined it and smaller rifts while we were unconscious in Haven and wasn't able to close them. And he doesn't have any reason to want rifts to remain open, that was an unintended side effect of Cory unlocking the orb. Of course, if Solas had been able to close rifts then it's possible that he and the Inquisitor would have been used as foot soldiers of the Inquisition and that's not a position would have wanted to place himself in...

Solas couldn't close the rifts. He didn't have the means. However, he knew how they were made and how to close them. He's the one who tells the mages or templars what to do... iirc...

So, the Inquisition (unknowingly) has a complete expert on that type of magic to show them (subtlety) what needs to be done.

It was probably a good thing his bauble of power broke if the events of Inquisition happen if someone who doesn't fully grasp the magic behind that spooky ball uses it... Cory becomes godlike (maybe) in that alternate timeline... the potential an expert would have with it? Hmmm...

Edit: Solas is deceiving you the entire game. Keeping secrets to advance his agenda. He's the male elf Morrigan, but way older and broodier.

[vbibbi]

Solas couldn't close the rifts. He didn't have the means. However, he knew how they were made and how to close them. He's the one who tells the mages or templars what to do... iirc...

So, the Inquisition (unknowingly) has a complete expert on that type of magic to show them (subtlety) what needs to be done.

It was probably a good thing his bauble of power broke if the events of Inquisition happen if someone who doesn't fully grasp the magic behind that spooky ball uses it... Cory becomes godlike (maybe) in that alternate timeline... the potential an expert would have with it? Hmmm...

Edit: Solas is deceiving you the entire game. Keeping secrets to advance his agenda. He's the male elf Morrigan, but way older and broodier.

 

Okay I wasn't sure if you meant that he was secretly performing his own magic during the closing of the Breach and the mages/templars were just a smoke screen. Yeah, it was his instructions which lead to the closing, although the way everyone went about it, if he hadn't been there they probably just would have spent an afternoon casting spells around until something worked. That's as far as Thedas has gotten with the scientific method so far.

[ThomasBlaine]

My first Inquisitor chose the Templars because they have a level of ingrained authority with the people that the Inquisition needs to stay in power in the long term.

 

I'm very tempted to go with the mages the second time around, but have a hard time justifying it.

[vbibbi]

My first Inquisitor chose the Templars because they have a level of ingrained authority with the people that the Inquisition needs to stay in power in the long term.
 
I'm very tempted to go with the mages the second time around, but have a hard time justifying it.

If you've only completed the game once so far, I would definitely recommend trying both paths. They lead to variations later in the game and help fill in some blanks from the other versions.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Posting this yet again:

 

You can feel that way but the game quite blatantly makes going to the mages a priority. Let's start off with why:

 

 

When you first get to Val Royeaux, the templars essentially tell you that you can go to hell and that they are their own power. Heck, Lucius straight up calls the templars who joined the Inquisition TRAITORS, so it's made blatantly clear the Templars want nothing to do with you. On the other hand, Fiona politely comes to you at great risk to herself and invites you to discuss a potential alliance. If you aren't a rampant mage-hater, there is literally no reason not to at least go to Redcliffe and hear the mages out.

 

Afterwards, you find out about the time rifts. After that, you find out that a bunch of Tevinters for some reason came all the way to Redcliffe to get the mages. Fiona not knowing about you should raise some concern. Not going to the church afterwards is the only way to justifiably consider going to the templars. If you do go, you learn about the Venatori, a group who is obsessed with you and is probably the closest thing you've got so far to discovering just who exactly caused the Breach, not to mention Dorian's warning how the time rifts are going to continue to expand and go farther. That is pretty much an immediate reason to deal with the mages.

 

Now, you've basically got a hostile enemy occupying territory practically next door to you with time magic that is starting to expand and are the primary suspects in finding the culprits who started the Breach. Before you suggest "lets get the Templars", your advisors straight up tell you that won't work as the Venatori are mobilizing for war and by the time you get the Templars, the mages will be long gone, plus your advisors straight up telling you actually assaulting Redcliffe Castle even with Templars would be seen as an act of war with Ferelden so that's out of the picture. So now you've got a hostile foreign power mobilizing for war who potentially caused the Breach that is right next door and will take the mages away from you if you try to get the Templars. That alone should be reason enough for why you should deal with the mages ASAP.

 

Furthermore, literally nothing indicates you'll lose the Templars if you help out the mages first, plus the plan to get the Templars involves essentially threatening them to help you. Something tells me the Templars wouldn't be too happy to help you when you threaten them into helping you.

 

Plus, finding out Cory's plans makes a lot more sense if you sided with the mages because they already happened but meanwhile the only reason you know about Cory's plans with  the templars is by finding papers the Envy demon left lying about and Envy gloating about the demon army. Sorry, but the mage method makes a lot more sense.

 

Furthermore, having to recruit Cole TWICE is just plain ridiculous. It makes sense having to recruit him if you sided with the mages but zero if you already recruited him after siding with the templars. It makes sense everyone is suspicious if he first came during the attack on Haven but little if he's already been around for a while after siding with the Templars. Plus, the interactions with the dying Roderick make more sense if Cole is the one with him rather than Dorian. 

 

Now lets talk about the Red Templars: 

 

If you sided with the templars, HOW IS THERE AN ARMY OF RED TEMPLARS STILL AROUND? It makes sense that the Venatori are still around if you sided with the mages because a majority of them are from Tevinter but it makes zero sense for the Red Templars to have a large presence if you helped the Red Templars. For starters, you prevented them from bolstering their army with the entire Templar order which should drastically reduce their numbers. Furthermore, you killed a lot of red templars while recruiting the mages so there should be even less. That brings up the question of how are the red templars still a fighting force if you sided with the templars? They are apparently large enough to stand up to the Orlesian army during WPHW despite that making no sense if you sided with the templars yet makes complete sense if you sided with the mages.

 

Furthermore, the Templars stop being relevant if Barris dies or you conscript them. There is no redemption arc in that case. Plus, the Templars get absolutely no mention in Trespasser apart from their rebellion against Divine Vivienne.

 

 

All things considered, the game blatantly wants you to go towards the mages. 

[Iakus]

 

 

Now lets talk about the Red Templars: 

 

If you sided with the templars, HOW IS THERE AN ARMY OF RED TEMPLARS STILL AROUND?  

Gets explained in the story:

 

The Templars in Kirkwall started using Red Lyrium (likely thanks to Samson) 

Also not all "Red Templars" are "Templars"  There's an entire red lyrium operation going on in Emprise du Lyon where ordinary peasants are being exposed to it and turned into monsters.  

 

So yeah, red lyrium was spreading even before Champions of the Just.  Just as the venatori were active before In Hushed Whispers.

[Walter Black]

Honestly, I'm still dissapointed that we couldn't at least try to get both.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like that from a narrative and roleplaying standpoint you can only obtain the Mages or Templars. I like how Corypheus and the Venatori get the other ones when you recruit either Templars or Mages (though why they sit on their laurels during Adamant or the Winter Palace is another plot hole entirely ). I've been critical of the whole "Almighty PC gets a magic third option that makes everyone happy" (looking at you Connor ) plot. Finally, I hate rpgs where companions just sit around home base while I'm off saving the world; didn't you used to be an adventurer before I came along? Oh right, companions can't be even slightly competent lest they *gasp* overshadow the player .

 

The key word here is "try"; regardless of the chances of success, the fact that no one even thinks of recruiting both makes the Inquisitor and Advisors look stupid. Here's what I would have done:

 

Step 1

 

Cassandra: You want to recruit Templars and Mages? But both sides have made it clear that they will only treat with you personally.

 

Inquisitor: I will send a represenative who has the complete trust and authority of the Hand of Andraste in this matter.

 

Lelianna: Such a move, playing both sides, will not engender trust...

 

Diplomatic Inquisitor: Have it made clear that I want to honor Justinia's legacy to find peaceful solutions where the Conclave could not.

OR

Snarky Inquisitor: Right, I'm sure the Mages and Templar totally trust bosses who punch out old women in a crowded street or sell them to a Tevinter Magister.   

OR

Aggresive Inquisitor: The Mages and Templars lost any right to a trusting partnership when they decided to continue their war as demons fall from the sky. They endanger the entire world with their selfishness and incompetence, so I will bring them to heel.

 

Step 2

 

Choose a Companion to go to Therinfall or Redcliffe when you go to the other one. Who you pick determines the relative "success" of the other mission. similar to ME2's Fire Team Leader. For example, I think Cassandra would be best suited for Therinfall, with Vivienne a good second for her traditionalism and nobility contacts. Ironically, I think Blackwall would good for Redcliffe, with images of the Wardens and the Blight throwing Alexius' guard off. Solas might work, with his "Fade" insider knowledge. Sera or Ironbull, though? Everybody's Dead Dave .

 

Step 3

 

Upon returning to Haven with your preferred choice, you are immediately debriefed by your Represenative.

 

Inquisitor: What happened?

 

Represenative: It was a disaster; even after we barely convinced them how your abscence wasn't an insult, some who might have opened up to you veiwed us with suspicion. When Alexius and the Venatori/the Red Templars and Envy attacked, we lost a lot of good mages/templars. I don't know if the ones we resuced are enough to affect the Breach much.

 

Step 4

 

Meet a generic mage or templar represenative to ally or conscript them (Barris or Fiona would have died if you personally didn't do IHW or COTJ) and deal with the fallout.

 

Now I know what you're thinking: why devote so much time and rescources for little payoff? Narrative and strategically speaking I still think it's the best way to go. It's better to have some of them than none. Plus, extra roleplaying options are never a bad thing. Obviously this ship has sailed, but hopefully Bioware can recognize this missed oppourtunity and give us more nuanced choices in the future.

[vbibbi]

Gets explained in the story:

 

The Templars in Kirkwall started using Red Lyrium (likely thanks to Samson) 

Also not all "Red Templars" are "Templars"  There's an entire red lyrium operation going on in Emprise du Lyon where ordinary peasants are being exposed to it and turned into monsters.  

 

So yeah, red lyrium was spreading even before Champions of the Just.  Just as the venatori were active before In Hushed Whispers.

 

I wouldn't engage him, since he clearly isn't looking for a discussion but a "reason" to attack people who play the templar path.

[nightscrawl]

Honestly, I'm still dissapointed that we couldn't at least try to get both.
 
Don't get me wrong, I like that from a narrative and roleplaying standpoint you can only obtain the Mages or Templars. I like how Corypheus and the Venatori get the other ones when you recruit either Templars or Mages (though why they sit on their laurels during Adamant or the Winter Palace is another plot hole entirely ). I've been critical of the whole "Almighty PC gets a magic third option that makes everyone happy" (looking at you Connor ) plot. Finally, I hate rpgs where companions just sit around home base while I'm off saving the world; didn't you used to be an adventurer before I came along? Oh right, companions can't be even slightly competent lest they *gasp* overshadow the player .
 
The key word here is "try"; regardless of the chances of success, the fact that no one even thinks of recruiting both makes the Inquisitor and Advisors look stupid. Here's what I would have done:

Spoiler

Step 1
 
Cassandra: You want to recruit Templars and Mages? But both sides have made it clear that they will only treat with you personally.
 
Inquisitor: I will send a represenative who has the complete trust and authority of the Hand of Andraste in this matter.
 
Lelianna: Such a move, playing both sides, will not engender trust...
 
Diplomatic Inquisitor: Have it made clear that I want to honor Justinia's legacy to find peaceful solutions where the Conclave could not.
OR
Snarky Inquisitor: Right, I'm sure the Mages and Templar totally trust bosses who punch out old women in a crowded street or sell them to a Tevinter Magister.   
OR
Aggresive Inquisitor: The Mages and Templars lost any right to a trusting partnership when they decided to continue their war as demons fall from the sky. They endanger the entire world with their selfishness and incompetence, so I will bring them to heel.
 
Step 2
 
Choose a Companion to go to Therinfall or Redcliffe when you go to the other one. Who you pick determines the relative "success" of the other mission. similar to ME2's Fire Team Leader. For example, I think Cassandra would be best suited for Therinfall, with Vivienne a good second for her traditionalism and nobility contacts. Ironically, I think Blackwall would good for Redcliffe, with images of the Wardens and the Blight throwing Alexius' guard off. Solas might work, with his "Fade" insider knowledge. Sera or Ironbull, though? Everybody's Dead Dave .
 
Step 3
 
Upon returning to Haven with your preferred choice, you are immediately debriefed by your Represenative.
 
Inquisitor: What happened?
 
Represenative: It was a disaster; even after we barely convinced them how your abscence wasn't an insult, some who might have opened up to you veiwed us with suspicion. When Alexius and the Venatori/the Red Templars and Envy attacked, we lost a lot of good mages/templars. I don't know if the ones we resuced are enough to affect the Breach much.
 
Step 4
 
Meet a generic mage or templar represenative to ally or conscript them (Barris or Fiona would have died if you personally didn't do IHW or COTJ) and deal with the fallout.
 
Now I know what you're thinking: why devote so much time and rescources for little payoff? Narrative and strategically speaking I still think it's the best way to go. It's better to have some of them than none. Plus, extra roleplaying options are never a bad thing. Obviously this ship has sailed, but hopefully Bioware can recognize this missed oppourtunity and give us more nuanced choices in the future.

But they account for this in quest dialogue. During the IHW cinematic the Herald can ask about that option and they have an explanation for it. Sure, some people might not pick it, and there isn't something similar for the CotJ cinematic, but at least the option is there somewhere with the corresponding reason, even if that reason seems lame to some people.

That said, I do like your idea. I think it would have been interesting to have a sort of false effort, that is, the player "chooses" the mage or templar cinematic, and in that cinematic you say that you want to try for both, so it's tried and whatever method fails, still leaving you with just the single path.

[nightscrawl]

I thought it would be useful to post the actual In Hushed Whispers cinematic dialogue related to fetching the templars. I have just now looked at both cinematics and this specific path in the IHW dialogue is the ONLY time that this information appears. In the Champions of the Just cinematic, there are no options to ask about recruiting the mages instead.

 

Of course, this is in addition to the game's war table UI explicitly telling the player that you can only choose one; this appears when you click on the mission, and again when you confirm the selection.

 

 

Cassandra: The magister--

 

Cullen: Has outplayed us.

 

[3. Let's get the templars.] Fine. We go get the templars, and they help us deal with Alexius.

 

Leliana: My spies report the mages have already mobilized for war. Even if we succeed at recruiting the templars, it will be too late to stop Alexius.

 

Cassandra: We cannot accept defeat now. There must be a solution.

 

[6. This isn't worth the trouble.] Forget the mages. We still have another option for closing the Breach.

 

Leliana: Wait. There is a secret passage into the castle, an escape route for the family.

 

 

As you can see, the Herald's second attempt at suggesting the templars is basically overridden by Leliana mentioning the secret passage.

[vbibbi]

I thought it would be useful to post the actual In Hushed Whispers cinematic dialogue related to fetching the templars. I have just now looked at both cinematics and this specific path in the IHW dialogue is the ONLY time that this information appears. In the Champions of the Just cinematic, there are no options to ask about recruiting the mages instead.

 

Of course, this is in addition to the game's war table UI explicitly telling the player that you can only choose one; this appears when you click on the mission, and again when you confirm the selection.

 

 

Cassandra: The magister--

 

Cullen: Has outplayed us.

 

[3. Let's get the templars.] Fine. We go get the templars, and they help us deal with Alexius.

 

Leliana: My spies report the mages have already mobilized for war. Even if we succeed at recruiting the templars, it will be too late to stop Alexius.

 

Cassandra: We cannot accept defeat now. There must be a solution.

 

[6. This isn't worth the trouble.] Forget the mages. We still have another option for closing the Breach.

 

Leliana: Wait. There is a secret passage into the castle, an escape route for the family.

 

 

As you can see, the Herald's second attempt at suggesting the templars is basically overridden by Leliana mentioning the secret passage.

 

Thanks for posting that. Good point on the Herald's knowledge of either/or with these quests.

 

 

The either/or nature of these quests reminds me that the overall idea of the PC leading an organization didn't work for me. While we have Krem and the Chargers able to investigate Redcliffe or Therinfall after the quest, why can't be delegate part of our forces to go on one quest while we go to the other? I know we're only the Herald at this point and not the Inquisitor, but why is there a town full of Inquisition members who just sit around Haven?

 

This would never have happened, but it would have been cool if we could have done a Gates of Denerim quest and assigned one of our companions to lead a second team to the other quest. Let Cassandra/IB/Blackwall lead the beta team to investigate while we're busy. What else are our companions going to do, sit around Haven?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Gets explained in the story:

 

The Templars in Kirkwall started using Red Lyrium (likely thanks to Samson) 

Also not all "Red Templars" are "Templars"  There's an entire red lyrium operation going on in Emprise du Lyon where ordinary peasants are being exposed to it and turned into monsters.  

 

So yeah, red lyrium was spreading even before Champions of the Just.  Just as the venatori were active before In Hushed Whispers.

Except the problem is that the venatori still being numerous is still explainable on the mage side due to them being from Tevinter, thus they don't need the rebel mages.

 

 

However, if you side with the templars, you both kill a lot of red templars at Therinfal and deprive them of bolstering their numbers. That alone should mean that the red templars shouldn't be a threat yet apparently they are still numerous enough that we need the Orlesian army to help the Inquisition in order to fight them. In that case, does that mean that high majority of the templars were corrupted anyway? In that case, why bother going to the templars if saving the mages gets you all the mages yet saving the templars only gets you a small percent of the templars?

 

 

Also, I think you are misunderstanding what happened in Emprise. They weren't infecting people to make them into soldiers, they were infecting them in order to mine their corpses for more red lyrium. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I thought it would be useful to post the actual In Hushed Whispers cinematic dialogue related to fetching the templars. I have just now looked at both cinematics and this specific path in the IHW dialogue is the ONLY time that this information appears. In the Champions of the Just cinematic, there are no options to ask about recruiting the mages instead.

 

Of course, this is in addition to the game's war table UI explicitly telling the player that you can only choose one; this appears when you click on the mission, and again when you confirm the selection.

 

 

Cassandra: The magister--

 

Cullen: Has outplayed us.

 

[3. Let's get the templars.] Fine. We go get the templars, and they help us deal with Alexius.

 

Leliana: My spies report the mages have already mobilized for war. Even if we succeed at recruiting the templars, it will be too late to stop Alexius.

 

Cassandra: We cannot accept defeat now. There must be a solution.

 

[6. This isn't worth the trouble.] Forget the mages. We still have another option for closing the Breach.

 

Leliana: Wait. There is a secret passage into the castle, an escape route for the family.

 

 

As you can see, the Herald's second attempt at suggesting the templars is basically overridden by Leliana mentioning the secret passage.

Funny how I literally posted the exact same thing earlier in this thread yet practically nobody cared:

 

 

This. Seriously, your advisors straight up tell you why that won't work

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=7E95T32q1d8

Funny how it's always Mage supporters who actually provide facts and do research 

[Shechinah]

Funny how I literally posted the exact same thing earlier in this thread yet practically nobody cared:

 
You know, I think a number of people might have thought your post was being a bit bias and a bit generalising considering that you ended your post with and I quote; "Funny how it's always Mage supporters who actually provide facts and do research"

 

Ending your post with a incorrect statement tend to make it difficult for people to believe that the rest of your post was a correct statement.