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[Lulupab]

You misunderstand. SuperDarkOne2 wasn't saying Fiona was tricked into subjugating herself. Being 'tricked' has never been in dispute.

 

He was saying she and the rest of the mages were outright mind-controlled into going along with it and attacking Haven on behalf of the blighted Corypheus. The mythical codex was supposedly about some mind-control ritual that the Venatori were doing on the Circle Mages right before marching on Haven.

 

I know but I don't see how people missed the reference.

 

Templars are addicted to Lyrium, they are promised Lyrium, but the Lyrium is corrupted.

Mages need support, Tevinter offered it, but it was not actually Tevinter but Venatori in guise of Tevinter.

 

But apart from this, I always found the lack of such codex more horrifying than actual evidence. It enables you to ask "what could have happened?" to *persuade all those mages to fight for Venatori. Also what made me cringe was the fight with Fiona, she shows no emotion, no reaction and just casts spells. She doesn't make any sound at all, unlike regular enemies we fight, not even when she dies. Her counterpart Denam (when you side with mages) who is actually a red Lyrium monstrosity shows quite a bit of reaction, and screams in pain when hit and on death. I know its just a battle in the game, but the devs have deliberately removed reaction, emotions and sounds from Fiona because all the other enemies have them.

[sniper_arrow]

Irrelevant. Majority of mages in Redcliff are from Orlais and Nevara due to what happened with Ferelden circle. So its not about crossing nations, not to mention I never implied Tevinter would send an army. If Alexius was actually a real magister with no ties to Venatori then he and the mages would pack up and leave for Tevinter. Not stay and fight for the Elder One.

 

Alexius fooled literally everyone, if not for Felix NO ONE would have figured out he was Venatori so I don't think we can blame Fiona's smarts. 

 

Fiona was a fool for not being prepared for the outcome of the mage independence vote. She should've at least known and expected the sacrifices and the dangers they would have faced to get what they want. Instead, the rebel mages were running around like headless chickens until Alexius and Ferelden intervened. 

[vbibbi]

Mind explaining how does anything I said contradict that? Man, the level of insults on this forum went down after the talimancer war ended. Seriously, that was some entertaining stuff

 

I think the phrase "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies here. Note that you were the first person in this thread, specifically about headcanon and not requesting a resurrection of the mage vs. templar debate, to go on the offensive and attack someone's opinion and then just leave the thread.

 

Perhaps if instead of repeating the exact same thing over and over you stated your opinions respectfully instead of starting off your "discussion" with hostile and patronizing language, people would bother engaging you in a debate.

 

But I somehow doubt you're interested in a discussion. You clearly want to start a fight with anyone looking in the direction of a mage.

[vbibbi]

Irrelevant. Majority of mages in Redcliff are from Orlais and Nevara due to what happened with Ferelden circle. So its not about crossing nations, not to mention I never implied Tevinter would send an army. If Alexius was actually a real magister with no ties to Venatori then he and the mages would pack up and leave for Tevinter. Not stay and fight for the Elder One.

 

Alexius fooled literally everyone, if not for Felix NO ONE would have figured out he was Venatori so I don't think we can blame Fiona's smarts. 

 

Yeah I mean I was genuinely shocked when the Tevinter magister who had usurped Redcliffe castle from its occupants and had the skulls of Tranquil on his lawn turned out to be a bad guy. Did not see that coming.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think the phrase "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies here. Note that you were the first person in this thread, specifically about headcanon and not requesting a resurrection of the mage vs. templar debate, to go on the offensive and attack someone's opinion and then just leave the thread.

Perhaps if instead of repeating the exact same thing over and over you stated your opinions respectfully instead of starting off your "discussion" with hostile and patronizing language, people would bother engaging you in a debate.

But I somehow doubt you're interested in a discussion. You clearly want to start a fight with anyone looking in the direction of a mage.

So when a Templar supporter does the same thing, I'd guess you'd say something or just stay on the sidelines?

[Lulupab]

Yeah I mean I was genuinely shocked when the Tevinter magister who had usurped Redcliffe castle from its occupants and had the skulls of Tranquil on his lawn turned out to be a bad guy. Did not see that coming.

 

I'm happy you are enjoying your hindsight as a player in the game, but Alexius did all that AFTER the deal. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I'm happy you are enjoying your hindsight as a player in the game, but Alexius did all that AFTER the deal.

This. Plus, the game clearly acts like you know about the Venatori so you likely aren't meant to see the skulls before learning about them

[Lulupab]

Fiona was a fool for not being prepared for the outcome of the mage independence vote. She should've at least known and expected the sacrifices and the dangers they would have faced to get what they want. Instead, the rebel mages were running around like headless chickens until Alexius and Ferelden intervened. 

 

Templars were literally doing the same, at least mages were invited into Redcliff. Templars pretty much invaded.

 

Breaking away from chantry was probably one of the most stupid decisions ever made in all of Thedas in all of its history. If Templars didn't break away from chantry the mage rebellion would be over before it started. They literally gave the mage a chances. So don't speak about foolishness here, the addict watchdogs probably get the reward. All you have to do is killing their leader, then they show how unorganized and unprepared they are. Not that you can expect any less from people who have been leashed all their life.

[nightscrawl]

I'm happy you are enjoying your hindsight as a player in the game, but Alexius did all that AFTER the deal. 

 

While this is true, the South does not generally look favorably on Tevinter, and especially not Tevinter magisters. Even without doing anything, the mere happenstance of him showing up at all should have been a concern and made one question what his ulterior motive might be.

 

That said, I'm not one of these Fiona haters. To me, she came across as desperate and made the only decision that she felt was open to her at the time, especially since she believed the templars were getting ready to storm the place. The other mages that you can talk to around Redcliffe that voice their concern are speaking only for themselves and out of fear for themselves, while Fiona was saddled with the responsibility of protecting hundreds, including children.

 

I don't say it was a good decision, but neither do I think it was an easy decision.

 

Also, people throw around the "Fiona selling the mages into slavery" thing like she wasn't also included. She is a former slave, and I think she knows more than most of the mages there what the potential consequences are. Some might say that adds an extra level of horror to her decision, but then again, there is that desperation factor.

 

IHW is filled with terrible decisions by all involved, including Alexius himself who is doing all this for his own personal reasons, and not because he thinks Corypheus is the bee's knees.

[vbibbi]

So when a Templar supporter does the same thing, I'd guess you'd say something or just stay on the sidelines?

 

As soon as one attacks me directly and at random, I'll let you know.

 

I'm happy you are enjoying your hindsight as a player in the game, but Alexius did all that AFTER the deal. 

 

Alexius usurped the castle and killed tranquil after the deal, sure. But does that mean that as soon as Fiona agrees to his terms, any subsequent crimes she watches him commit means she's just going to keep silent? She agreed to ally with him and go to Tevinter. Then he kicks Arl Teagan out, tranquil start mysteriously disappearing (I don't think Fiona knew what happened but she willfully chose not to investigate where they went when they were under her care) and she does nothing. She even witnesses Alexius change the terms of the deal on a whim and doesn't protest. This is all before he's revealed to be Venatori. Did she actually expect good things to happen if he had actually taken her to Tevinter instead of fight for Corypheus?

[nightscrawl]

As soon as one attacks me directly and at random, I'll let you know.
 
 
Alexius usurped the castle and killed tranquil after the deal, sure. But does that mean that as soon as Fiona agrees to his terms, any subsequent crimes she watches him commit means she's just going to keep silent? She agreed to ally with him and go to Tevinter. Then he kicks Arl Teagan out, tranquil start mysteriously disappearing (I don't think Fiona knew what happened but she willfully chose not to investigate where they went when they were under her care) and she does nothing. She even witnesses Alexius change the terms of the deal on a whim and doesn't protest. This is all before he's revealed to be Venatori. Did she actually expect good things to happen if he had actually taken her to Tevinter instead of fight for Corypheus?

She does protest him changing the terms of the deal, though. "You said my people wouldn't be military. There are children and those not suited." Yes, she does still follow him at the end of the scene, but she doesn't look happy about it. In the hall in Redcliffe she also yells out, "You can't involve my people in this!" after Alexius explains about the Elder One and his grand ambition.

[Lulupab]

Alexius usurped the castle and killed tranquil after the deal, sure. But does that mean that as soon as Fiona agrees to his terms, any subsequent crimes she watches him commit means she's just going to keep silent? She agreed to ally with him and go to Tevinter. Then he kicks Arl Teagan out, tranquil start mysteriously disappearing (I don't think Fiona knew what happened but she willfully chose not to investigate where they went when they were under her care) and she does nothing. She even witnesses Alexius change the terms of the deal on a whim and doesn't protest. This is all before he's revealed to be Venatori. Did she actually expect good things to happen if he had actually taken her to Tevinter instead of fight for Corypheus?

 

Fiona and most people think Teagan left by himself, actually maybe he did. He didn't know Alexius was with Venatori of course, but I don't think he could stomach a Tevinter Magister in Redcliff. Whether Alexius forced him out or he left by himself, everyone think he left by himself. So in the end its not an issue that should take priority over safety of mages with Children among them. The fate of the Tranquil is sad but if you paid attention no one noticed what happened to them except the other Tranquil. Tranquil followed mages because they had no where else to go but they were not in any immediate danger like other mages so while sad no one in Thedas is looking out for them, or cares what happens to them. At the time anyway with the war and torn open veil.

 

The fact remains that if Alexius was not with Venatori that deal was the only option that would protect the mages. By the time Inquisition reaches Redcliff is when Fiona is starting to doubt something is wrong, and objects to Alexiys many times. (I was going to post the lines but while I was writing this post nightscrawl posted right before me so read the above post). Fiona and the mages fight to the bitter end after Inquisitor is sent into the future, with Fiona as sole survivor. So they end up completely throwing the deal out of the window once its revealed Alexius is not speaking for Tevinter but Venatori.

[vbibbi]

She does protest him changing the terms of the deal, though. "You said my people wouldn't be military. There are children and those not suited." Yes, she does still follow him at the end of the scene, but she doesn't look happy about it. In the hall in Redcliffe she also yells out, "You can't involve my people in this!" after Alexius explains about the Elder One and his grand ambition.

 

She puts up a heck of a weak resistance.

 

"No! You can't!"

 

"Yes I can!"

 

"Oh, right then. Back to the castle?"

 

 

I'm judging her based on her actions, not her words.

 

If she was really committed to not having her people being used as front line forces, I think she would have protested attacking Haven and most likely either been killed or imprisoned by the Venatori. And yet...

 

Fiona and most people think Teagan left by himself, actually maybe he did. He didn't know Alexius was with Venatori of course, but I don't think he could stomach a Tevinter Magister in Redcliff. Whether Alexius forced him out or he left by himself, everyone think he left by himself. So in the end its not an issue that should take priority over safety of mages with Children among them. The fate of the Tranquil is sad but if you paid attention no one noticed what happened to them except the other Tranquil. Tranquil followed mages because they had no where else to go but they were not in any immediate danger like other mages so while sad no one in Thedas is looking out for them, or cares what happens to them. At the time anyway with the war and torn open veil.

 

The fact remains that if Alexius was not with Venatori that deal was the only option that would protect the mages. By the time Inquisition reaches Redcliff is when Fiona is starting to doubt something is wrong, and objects to Alexiys many times. (I was going to post the lines but while I was writing this post nightscrawl posted right before me so read the above post). Fiona and the mages fight to the bitter end after Inquisitor is sent into the future, with Fiona as sole survivor. So they end up completely throwing the deal out of the window once its revealed Alexius is not speaking for Tevinter but Venatori.

 

The game states that Teagan was kicked out. And if Fiona didn't know this, then she was willfully burying her head in the sand. She is still nominally the leader of the mages under Alexius' protection, she should not just abandon all sense of responsibility and allow the Tevinters (Venatori or not) to ignore Fereldan law.

 

So fate of the tranquil:

 

Tranquil Clement: "All of my fellow tranquil are mysteriously disappearing. Would someone please investigate?"

All other mages: "Shut it, we don't want to learn enough to be an accessory to murder!"

 

like...the mages were all hunky dory with tranquil disappearing? Tranquil wouldn't just abandon their post for no reason like a scared refugee might. Remember the tranquil in the Ferelden Circle who stayed at his post despite abominations everywhere? Anyone used to tranquil must have intentionally not thought about why they all started disappearing at the same time that Alexius came to town. Conveniently right after the Conclave exploded.

 

And it's not fact that if Alexius wasn't Venatori he would be the only option for the mages. Ferelden was already harboring them in a castle and showed no sign of kicking them out. They had offered shelter before Alexius ever showed up. Fiona chose to abandon that offer in favor of Alexius.

[nightscrawl]

Serious question: Clemence actually says something about it? I can only recall ever hearing his Agent recruitment dialogue. Part of that dialogue says that Alexius does not like the tranquil and he's worried he will be kicked out with nowhere to go. As far as I know, he doesn't actually talk about tranquil mysteriously disappearing.

 

However, I will add that I've only seen the conversation as a mage a single time, and non-mage numerous times, so there might be a difference there. "Magister Alexius does not approve of those without magic like you and me," to a non-mage Herald.

 

The only time I've ever seen mention of the tranquil disappearing is when the skull store room is actually found and Cassandra makes a remark about wondering where they had all gone.

[Shechinah]

Serious question: Clemence actually says something about it? I can only recall ever hearing his Agent recruitment dialogue. Part of that dialogue says that Alexius does not like the tranquil and he's worried he will be kicked out with nowhere to go. As far as I know, he doesn't actually talk about tranquil mysteriously disappearing.
 
However, I will add that I've only seen the conversation as a mage a single time, and non-mage numerous times, so there might be a difference there. "Magister Alexius does not approve of those without magic like you and me," to a non-mage Herald.
 
The only time I've ever seen mention of the tranquil disappearing is when the skull store room is actually found and Cassandra makes a remark about wondering where they had all gone.

 
Here is what I transcripted of Clemence's dialogue with the Inquisitor. If there is more than that, I honestly cannot remember as the thread was a while back. For clarification, I seem to recall that the people mentioned as "those" in the middle quote refers to mages.
 

Here is a transcript of Clemence the Alchemist's dialogue about Redcliffe. The reason the middle quote is alone is because the lines before is him explaining how Tranquils are made which is the same as has been said before.

Clemence: "Magister Alexius does not approve of those without magic like you or me. You may not wish to stay long. Many villagers have already left to escape his ire"
Inquisitor (Warrior): "What does the Magister have against you?"
Clemence: "He does not like to be reminded of what mages can become. He says all Tranquil must leave Redcliffe but who would take us in?"

Clemence: "Those now in Redcliffe prefer not to see us."

Inquisitor: "How long has Tevinter been here?"
Clemence: "Magister Alexius arrived at nightfall, two days after we retreated from the Temple of Sacred Ashes. He forced anyone without magic out of the castle save those he required to serve him even the Arl was sent away."

[thesuperdarkone2]

Here is what I transcripted of Clemence's dialogue with the Inquisitor. If there is more than that, I honestly cannot remember as the thread was a while back. For clarification, I seem to recall that the people mentioned as "those" in the middle quote refers to mages.

So no, there is no mention of tranquil disappearing, only that they are being evicted. The only thing that changes for a Mage inquisitor is that the inquisitor can stay as Alexius approves of magic

[nightscrawl]

Here is what I transcripted of Clemence's dialogue with the Inquisitor. If there is more than that, I honestly cannot remember as the thread was a while back. For clarification, I seem to recall that the people mentioned as "those" in the middle quote refers to mages.

Thanks. However, I will say that I interpreted "those" as just being people in general because the line is "those without magic like you or me." The Herald is not tranquil, so it doesn't follow that it would be a reference to mages. That is the line I get as a non-mage when I play, so it makes perfect sense to me that it's just "everyone without magic" and not "mages without magic and also you person without magic."

 

 

I don't want to harp on specifics, really, as I agree with vbibbi's overall point. Fiona made some crappy decisions, but I happen to view those decisions a bit more moderately than some because I think the reasons behind those decisions are understandable.

[Iakus]

I'm happy you are enjoying your hindsight as a player in the game, but Alexius did all that AFTER the deal. 

How would a "deal" with any mage give him the authority to depose an arl in a foreign nation, exactly?

 

Even leaving aside what he did with the Tranquil.

[Lulupab]

 

The game states that Teagan was kicked out. And if Fiona didn't know this, then she was willfully burying her head in the sand. She is still nominally the leader of the mages under Alexius' protection, she should not just abandon all sense of responsibility and allow the Tevinters (Venatori or not) to ignore Fereldan law.

 

So fate of the tranquil:

 

Tranquil Clement: "All of my fellow tranquil are mysteriously disappearing. Would someone please investigate?"

All other mages: "Shut it, we don't want to learn enough to be an accessory to murder!"

 

like...the mages were all hunky dory with tranquil disappearing? Tranquil wouldn't just abandon their post for no reason like a scared refugee might. Remember the tranquil in the Ferelden Circle who stayed at his post despite abominations everywhere? Anyone used to tranquil must have intentionally not thought about why they all started disappearing at the same time that Alexius came to town. Conveniently right after the Conclave exploded.

 

And it's not fact that if Alexius wasn't Venatori he would be the only option for the mages. Ferelden was already harboring them in a castle and showed no sign of kicking them out. They had offered shelter before Alexius ever showed up. Fiona chose to abandon that offer in favor of Alexius.

 

How does the game "state" he was kicked out? I paid close attention and every time the verb "left" was used. He left on his volition, and he was allowed to leave. Reason not clear.

 

You are convincing no one but yourself here about Clement. Because he never mentions the missing tranquil in conversation. In fact the disappearing of tranquil and usage of their skulls is all part of the side quests. There is no verbal mention of them in the game, only text. So yes, no one knew and cared about their disappearance. I'm not saying its a good thing that no one cared, but with circles gone they are not really useful to anyone, they cannot even fight. 

 

After the Templar attack and death of many mages AND people of Redcliff itself, maybe Fiona and the mages saw that they are not really "protected" in Redcliff. I mean you are again judging the situation with your hindsight. Here you have Fiona, supposedly protected by Ferelden while she stares the corpses, mage and redcliff people alike. They weren't even able to protect themselves, least of all mages. It doesn't matter what bigger picture you have in your head, the immediate situation demanded another solution, and thanks to time magic Alexius was exactly there on time.

[thesuperdarkone2]

How would a "deal" with any mage give him the authority to depose an arl in a foreign nation, exactly?

 

Even leaving aside what he did with the Tranquil.

Probably to ensure the the mages would literally have nowhere else to turn to. Think about it, if the mages still had the good graces of Ferelden, there would be no reason to take the deal as slaves. However, after accepting the deal, by kicking out Teagan, it pretty much took away Ferelden aid from the rebel mages, thereby ensuring that they literally had nowhere else to turn to. They could accept the deal with whatever terms Alexius decided, or they could refuse the deal and be forced to fend for themselves as Ferelden was angered. That's exactly what happens after you deal with Alexius; without the Venatori, Ferelden exiles the rebel mages. That's also why they grudgingly accept being conscripted since they literally have nowhere else to turn to and have to accept whatever terms you want.

[Shechinah]

How does the game "state" he was kicked out? I paid close attention and every time the verb "left" was used. He left on his volition, and he was allowed to leave. Reason not clear.

 
Clemence the Alchemist states that Arl Teagan was made to leave so he did not leave by his own volition.

Clemence: "Magister Alexius arrived at nightfall, two days after we retreated from the Temple of Sacred Ashes. He forced anyone without magic out of the castle save those he required to serve him even the Arl was sent away."

 

Note: The underlining was done by me for emphasis.

[Shechinah]

I still think it would have been better if the quest had Fiona starting to test the waters with the Inquisition after the party arrives in Redcliffe as they present a possible alternative and it becomes clear that Alexius was not planning on honoring the original terms as he changes them without Fiona's consent and dismisses her protest to the matter.

 

She could have send someone she trusted to see if an arrangement could be negotiated with the Inquisition. Even if there was not enough time for something to come of it before the confrontation with Alexius, it would made her a bit more proactive in trying to get her people out of the situation.

[Lulupab]

How many men did Alexius have? He only had spies at the time. I guess the fact that he just walked in and ordered Teagan to leave shows how much "protection" Ferelden was offering mages. Not that there was any doubt due to Redcliff pretty much failing to defend itself from a previous Templar attack. I was mainly pointing out it was Teagan decision to leave Redcliff. He abandoned his people and mages to their fate only to get his fancy title back. His people and city utterly die if Inquisition does not interfere.

 

Not to mention after Trespasser Teagan shown his true face anyway. I guess power changes people.

[sniper_arrow]

How does the game "state" he was kicked out? I paid close attention and every time the verb "left" was used. He left on his volition, and he was allowed to leave. Reason not clear.

 

You are convincing no one but yourself here about Clement. Because he never mentions the missing tranquil in conversation. In fact the disappearing of tranquil and usage of their skulls is all part of the side quests. There is no verbal mention of them in the game, only text. So yes, no one knew and cared about their disappearance. I'm not saying its a good thing that no one cared, but with circles gone they are not really useful to anyone, they cannot even fight. 

 

After the Templar attack and death of many mages AND people of Redcliff itself, maybe Fiona and the mages saw that they are not really "protected" in Redcliff. I mean you are again judging the situation with your hindsight. Here you have Fiona, supposedly protected by Ferelden while she stares the corpses, mage and redcliff people alike. They weren't even able to protect themselves, least of all mages. It doesn't matter what bigger picture you have in your head, the immediate situation demanded another solution, and thanks to time magic Alexius was exactly there on time.

 

Alistair and/or Anora didn't arrive at Redcliffe with flowers for Fiona and Alexius. Their reaction clearly indicated they weren't happy how Teagan was treated. And sure, he "left" at his own volition. That's because he was threatened by Alexius.

 

Also, if you have Connor alive in your WS, he tells you that he didn't approved the alliance because Alexius kicked Teagan out: https://www.youtube....v=VDY5NDhg9Fk. 

 

Also, I wouldn't call the Tranquil useless. Helisma in Skyhold replaces Minaeve as the head creature researcher. 

[vbibbi]

How does the game "state" he was kicked out? I paid close attention and every time the verb "left" was used. He left on his volition, and he was allowed to leave. Reason not clear.

 

 

 

You are convincing no one but yourself here about Clement. Because he never mentions the missing tranquil in conversation. In fact the disappearing of tranquil and usage of their skulls is all part of the side quests. There is no verbal mention of them in the game, only text. So yes, no one knew and cared about their disappearance. I'm not saying its a good thing that no one cared, but with circles gone they are not really useful to anyone, they cannot even fight.

 

 

After the Templar attack and death of many mages AND people of Redcliff itself, maybe Fiona and the mages saw that they are not really "protected" in Redcliff. I mean you are again judging the situation with your hindsight. Here you have Fiona, supposedly protected by Ferelden while she stares the corpses, mage and redcliff people alike. They weren't even able to protect themselves, least of all mages. It doesn't matter what bigger picture you have in your head, the immediate situation demanded another solution, and thanks to time magic Alexius was exactly there on time.

 
 

How many men did Alexius have? He only had spies at the time. I guess the fact that he just walked in and ordered Teagan to leave shows how much "protection" Ferelden was offering mages. Not that there was any doubt due to Redcliff pretty much failing to defend itself from a previous Templar attack. I was mainly pointing out it was Teagan decision to leave Redcliff. He abandoned his people and mages to their fate only to get his fancy title back. His people and city utterly die if Inquisition does not interfere.
 
Not to mention after Trespasser Teagan shown his true face anyway. I guess power changes people.

 
So because the lawful ruler of a town was forced out of his home by a Tevinter magister, a powerful mage who has spent years researching magical theory, he really wasn't that invested in protecting his land? Remember that when he was kicked out he went straight to Denerim to request aid. This is why Alistair and/or Anora arrive immediately at the end of IHW.

 

And because Teagan was looking out for his own country's best interests rather than those of the Inquisition, a foreign institution on his border who held no legitimate claim to territory it held in his land, he's also not fit to rule? Sounds like you favor might makes right.

 

And because tranquil aren't good in a fight, the mages in Redcliffe were justified in not wondering where they had gone?