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[raging_monkey]

To be fair tranqs aren't people they are puppets at best machines at worse

[Iakus]

 

They cannot want. And they're not competent to make their own life choices, as they don't have anything like their full faculties.

 

Yes they can.  Tranquil are without emotion, but not without free will.  A Tranquil wants to live, for instance, and will take action to preserve himself or herself.  What they lack is passion.

[nightscrawl]

They're her coworkers, who may not even want to be cured, even if it was safe to do so!

This is the problem with the cure for tranquility. Some mages, like Owain and Kelli in the mage origin, want to be tranquil. So forcing the cure on those people because they can't really consent would be just as bad as forcing tranquility on those other mages who didn't want it.

 

And then there's the fact that the process can make them unstable, which they may or may not be able to recover from.

 

 

 

[edit]

But I will say that there is a more disturbing aspect to Kelli's issues in that those are spurred on by her faith and Chantry teachings, so it's different from Owain in that sense.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 23 juin 2016 - 06:20 .

[Shechinah]

In Asunder, Wynne made sure all the Circles were made aware of the cure for Tranquility just before the split.  So yeah it's likely all Circle Mages know about the cure at this point.

 

Which I suppose makes the Mages abandoning them even more negligent.

 

Oh, I see. 

 

That does bring into question the ethics of whether or not to cure a Tranquil if they say they do not wish to be cured. Do the reversal cure render the person immune to tranquilisation?

 

[Xilizhra]

Yes they can.  Tranquil are without emotion, but not without free will.  A Tranquil wants to live, for instance, and will take action to preserve himself or herself.  What they lack is passion.

And emotion and passion are a vital part of who a person is.

 

 

This is the problem with the cure for tranquility. Some mages, like Owain and Kelli in the mage origin, want to be tranquil. So forcing the cure on those people because they can't really consent would be just as bad as forcing tranquility on those other mages who didn't want it.

 

And then there's the fact that the process can make them unstable, which they may or may not be able to recover from.

They can't make an informed decision about Tranquility unless they've experienced it, so I would cure them anyway and ask whether or not they want it again.

[nightscrawl]

They can't make an informed decision about Tranquility unless they've experienced it, so I would cure them anyway and ask whether or not they want it again.

 
But... that could be akin to torturing them...

Oh, I see.

That does bring into question the ethics of whether or not to cure a Tranquil if they say they do not wish to be cured. Do the reversal cure render the person immune to tranquilisation?

We don't know at this time. Pharamond was killed, and neither did he want to go back, so we can't know since our only test case isn't available.

[Iakus]

Oh, I see. 

 

That does bring into question the ethics of whether or not to cure a Tranquil if they say they do not wish to be cured. Do the reversal cure render the person immune to tranquilisation?

It's unknown if one can be made Tranquil a second time Pharamond was murdered before ti could be attempted...

[Xilizhra]

 
But... that could be akin to torturing them...

It's no more torture than getting a root canal is.

[raging_monkey]

It's no more torture than getting a root canal is.

equating a pseudo lobotomy with a minor practice desperate are we

[Iakus]

And emotion and passion are a vital part of who a person is.

 

Sure.  But free will is the most important part.  A Tranquil has all the memories and interests of who they were before and are, if anything, more logical and rational that ordinary people or mages.

 

 

They can't make an informed decision about Tranquility unless they've experienced it, so I would cure them anyway and ask whether or not they want it again.

Before or after their bout of emotional instability?

[Xilizhra]

equating a pseudo lobotomy with a minor practice desperate are we

It may be painful, but is also medically healthful.

 

 

Sure.  But free will is the most important part.  A Tranquil has all the memories and interests of who they were before and are, if anything, more logical and rational that ordinary people or mages.

Regardless, the faculties needed to be the person they truly are have been locked away.

 

 

Before or after their bout of emotional instability?

Both.

[vbibbi]

Clemence phrases it well when you ask him why Alexius disapproves: "He does not like to be reminded of what mages can become." This attitude seems to be a common theme regarding mages that we've seen throughout DAO and DA2, and now into DAI. If you are a Circle mage, I seem to recall that the one in Ostagar is surprised if you are nice/polite to him. Mages look at the tranquil and think, "That could be me." This is on top of the fact that many mages seem to consider tranquility as a fate worse than death.

 

Mages fear becoming tranquil, so the ones that don't ignore them take out that fear on the tranquil and mistreat them.

 

It is crappy, but it is human nature, and I find it completely realistic behavior.

 

But the argument being presented is that mages should not be responsible for including the tranquil under their protection, because they make mages feel uneasy. It makes sense why some mages could feel uneasy by them, but it's not justification for just abandoning the tranquil or not particularly caring when they go missing.

 

 

 

 

What I've gotten from this thread is that if you criticize the mages at all, you're anti mage and pro templar and happy to deny human rights to people. But as long as you're pro mage it's okay to discriminate against other groups, especially if they're icky and mentally handicapped.

[raging_monkey]

It may be painful, but is also medically healthful.


Regardless, the faculties needed to be the person they truly are have been locked away.


Both.

doubt lobos are healthful

[Xilizhra]

doubt lobos are healthful

I'm talking about curing Tranquility.

[nightscrawl]

But the argument being presented is that mages should not be responsible for including the tranquil under their protection, because they make mages feel uneasy. It makes sense why some mages could feel uneasy by them, but it's not justification for just abandoning the tranquil or not particularly caring when they go missing.

 

 

 

 

What I've gotten from this thread is that if you criticize the mages at all, you're anti mage and pro templar and happy to deny human rights to people. But as long as you're pro mage it's okay to discriminate against other groups, especially if they're icky and mentally handicapped.

 

I wasn't attempting to justify anything, only to expound on the thought process that leads to the behavior. My mages, particularly my DAO mages, have never been negative about the tranquil. If anything, they would feel pity, but they certainly still are people deserving of care and protection. In the conversation with the Ostagar mage, one of the options is, "And now you are no longer a person." I think that's just awful.

[vbibbi]

I wasn't attempting to justify anything, only to expound on the thought process that leads to the behavior. My mages, particularly my DAO mages, have never been negative about the tranquil. If anything, they would feel pity, but they certainly still are people deserving of care and protection. In the conversation with the Ostagar mage, one of the options is, "And now you are no longer a person." I think that's just awful.

 

Sorry I wasn't directing either response to you directly. The first was just responding to the issues you're also responding to. The second was to the thread as a whole.

[Dai Grepher]

1. What Lucius trap? The templar quest makes it clear envy didn't give a crap about the Herald until they arrived with the nobles, after which envy decided that the Herald was important enough to replace

I explained this. The trap was Redcliffe. Both Alexius and Lucius wanted the Herald to go there and get caught in it. Lucius tried to deter the Herald from seeking out the templars, both so the Herald would be trapped and to prevent interference at Therinfal.

So yes, Lucius makes it clear that the templars want nothing to do with you, and that is so you will get trapped and not interfere with the project to turn the templars red. This is why going after the templars is the better choice. You defeat Alexius and Lucius by ignoring the deterrence and the trap. You save many templars from being corrupted.
 

2. Like I said before, the templar mission makes it clear that envy considers you to be a nobody and thus he has no reason to fear you because you literally . You only become a threat once the templars start worshipping you and you show that you are someone important.

I'm not making any point about Envy. Envy might not have considered you important until Therinfal, but the point is that Lucius and Envy needed to deter you from going to Therinfal and interfering in the operation to corrupt the templars with red lyrium.

Lucius' talk of how the Herald is nothing is just his way of deterring you from seeking the templars, and his way of convincing the templars to ignore you.

The main point is that he is trying to steer you away from Therinfal.
 

3. If you think the mages are your best hope of closing the breach, would you really care about what others think of the mages? Fiona not remembering you should ring some alarms and should deserve investigation. Also, you not being able to kill Alexius upon meeting him can probably be attributed to the Inquisitor not being a murderous psychopath

But the templars can help close the Breach as well. So yes, you should care what others think of the mages. You should care about the consequences of siding with them.

Alexius was a foreign invader who ousted a lord and endangered the mages. Killing him would be no different from killing Venatori out in the wilderness. It would also solve the problem instantly.
 

4. If you wait for them to come to you, it will likely be an assault. At the time, you are stationed in essentially a glorified tourist town that is ill suited for war. A group of mages attacking it would cause immense damage. That's not considering a surprise attack. Why wait for the enemy to come to you when you can cripple them, take their army away from them, and potentially get valuable information from captured Venatori?

If only that were an option. But no, your only plan is to be bait for a trap and face time magic head on. So let them come at you as an army, and let Haven defend itself. It isn't just a site for pilgrims. It's a fort that is set in a frozen, mountainous valley. Any army will find itself hard pressed to traverse that terrain, let alone launch an attack against a heavily defended fort afterward.
 

5. Given that a time rift was just outside the gates and inside the city in the Chantry, it's entirely possible to assume that more rifts could occur inside the town and get innocent people killed. Thus, one can argue that stopping Alexius would help put a stop to these rifts.

What rifts? Rifts that may occur? Let the mages handle any possible rifts. Let them deal with the consequences of not helping the Herald seal the Breach right now. Let their master protect them. Leaving the mages to their own devices is the better option. And if any rifts appear that threaten them, it would be sufficient encouragement for them to leave Redcliffe and seek the Inquisition, wouldn't it?
 

6. They may be small, but apparently they are strong enough to kick out Teagan and force the mages to mobilize for war. Also, ignoring the time magic might wind up getting a lot of innocents killed since there was a time rift right inside the chantry. What would you do if going to the templars meant more time rifts opened up in Redcliffe and wound up getting lots of people killed? Also, how is a group obsessed with you mobilizing for war with an army of mages not a threat to Haven? That's also ignoring that going to Therinfal wound up being a trap with you almost getting possessed with no way to defend yourself from it

You repeated a few thing from your last point, but to quickly address those again, yes even if it meant people getting killed by time rifts I would still go for the templars. The mages could have chosen to help us, but they didn't. So let them deal with the consequences of their actions. Let calamity befall them so that they and Ferelden are more inclined to seek the Herald's aid. Get the templars so that you can face any magical threat with anti-magic warriors. Makes sense to me. And let's be honest, there are rifts opening all over the place and people are dying. You can't be everywhere at once. People are going to die, that's just a harsh reality.

Next, they aren't a threat to Haven because they don't have the numbers to take Haven.

Now on to the new points you made. Therinfal was not a trap, but regardless of what happened, you are referring to meta-knowledge. You don't know that there is an Envy demon there, so there is no apparent reason to avoid Therinfal. Also, you did have a way to defend yourself, especially if you are a mage.

Also, the mages were not mobilized for war until after leaving Redcliffe and heading north to meet up with the main Venatori force. So the mages from Redcliffe were no threat to Haven until after meeting up with the main force led by Calpernia and Corypheus, and by then you have already returned to Haven with the templars. Also keep in mind that Haven was winning the battle easily until the dragon showed up. The dragon is the only reason why the Venatori were able to get inside the perimeter. But who could have predicted that a dragon would show up and attack Haven? Oh, that's right, your buddies in the future timeline in the mage path. Yet they never warn you of this danger. Hmmm.
 

7. Denerim is farther away from Redcliffe than Therinfal and your advisors say that the mages will be gone by the time you get the templars. How long do you think it would take for the Fereldan army to reach Redcliffe? Also, assuming the Venatori haven't left yet, what proof do you have that the Venatori would lose? They have one of the most defensible castles in the country, not to mention magic and potentially being bolstered with an army of rebel mages. Odds aren't looking so good for the fereldans. Also, the crown doesn't stop the venatori from marching on Haven

How long would it take Denerim troops to reach Redcliffe? Five minutes after you do. The troops were already marching to Redcliffe. You merely beat them there by literally five minutes.

Ferelden's troops would win with numbers, and Alexius knows it. That's why he retreats before Ferelden's troops arrive. Even if Ferelden were to be kept outside the gates, Alexius would be trapped. Then the Herald and the templars would arrive to assist. Alexius would have no chance. Again, that's why he retreats.

Ferelden doesn't go after the mages because they aren't mobilized for war at that time. My point was if the mages had been mobilized for war and left Redcliffe to attack Haven immediately, then Ferelden would have chased after them to end their aggression. However, the mages merely left and went north toward the border, which is why Ferelden's crown didn't bother pursuing. The crown just wanted them out of Ferelden. They didn't expect the mages to be met by an invading force from Tevinter and then that force to turn toward Haven.
 

8. We both know that the only reason the mages don't immediately join you is because the game needed a mission to get the mages. It's the same thing as Orsino going crazy if you sided with the mages in DA2. It was just an excuse to make players consider going to the templars especially considering Gaider said he was annoyed that so many people sided with the mages at the end of DA2 (gee Gaider, you're surprised that most people wouldn't help a blatantly insane bigot murder an entire group of people for something they didn't do?). Also, the original plan for getting the templars is to convince a lot of templars you are Jesus or threaten them. There is no guarantee that is going to work, not to mention that Therinfal winds up being a trap and you almost get possessed.

Yeah, you're right, it was an excuse to have a playable mission to get the mages, but my point is that this is bad storyline. BioWare should have written a better plot, such as divided factions within the mage rebellion, or have the rebels take over Redcliffe castle and have the Herald work with the crown to take it back. Almost anything would have been better than time magic.

No, it was never the plan to convince the templars that you are Andraste's herald. This is proven by a playthrough in which the Herald denies being saved by Andraste, or admits he doesn't know either way. The plan was to convince the templars that respect and recognition could be earned by allying with the Inquisition, and this also forced "Lucius" hand, since he was the one claiming that the Templar Order deserved recognition. Well, here are ten of the most distinguished houses in Orlais. So if recognition is what you truly want then open up and speak with us. If it isn't, then why did you lie to the templars, and what do you really want? It was a good plan. Much better storyline than IHW.

Again, it wasn't a trap, and Envy is meta-knowledge.
 

9. Except listening to the comments made by the templars during the mission prior to the red templars clearly show the templars aren't being swayed meaning the plan was a failing. Plus, why not bring some templars that are already part of the Inquisition as part of the stealth team? Tell me, how exactly would getting the templars help you defeat Alexius if you can't fight a direct battle for various reasons?

What mission prior to the red templars? Are you referring to when you first arrive at Therinfal? The templars express derision toward the nobles when talking amongst themselves, but are flummoxed when spoken to directly by nobles. All of this is to show clues as to the true state of mind of the templars. This is a way of storytelling. It shows you that some aren't in it for recognition or prestige, some are in it for a sense of purpose, or belonging, or duty, or faith, etc. The purpose of the nobles is to force "Lucius" to open up, or else admit that recognition isn't his true goal, in which case the templars will start to turn on him.

Why not bring templars of your own? For what? You are trying to recruit the ones you don't have, and you can make your case yourself. You don't need templars of your own to appeal to the Therinfal templars.

Gaining templars would help against Alexius because they can defend against hostile magic. Sending a few of them into Redcliffe castle first would force Alexius to use his time magic either on himself or on them, and they would have a better chance of negating the magic. They would also do better against any Venatori mages casting hostile spells. They could also act as a distraction while your party sneaks in through the secret passage and surprises Alexius. Getting the templars to help is a better strategy than walking into a trap against time magic.

[Lulupab]

I find it odd that you attempt to disassociate yourselves from the Tranquil and find it rather infuriating that you would cast aside your own people like that. They are just as much your responsibility as it was the Chantry's, and the fact that you would rather point fingers instead of owning up to the fact that you did abandon them to become oculara is kinda sad, to be honest.

The Tranquil situation was very much a lightning rod to the mage cause, and Pharamond's death helped galvanize the final events of White Spire. And now you abandon them just like that...

I agree with you and I really think the fate of the tranquil is a sad one. But this is war time, mages are out to save their own skin, and rightfully so. The only responsibility mages have towards the tranquil is a moral one, the actual responsibility is on the Chantry and Templars, they also bear the moral responsibility as well.

 

Although you don't find it odd that common folk fear magic, but you find it odd that tranquil make the people cringe? Mages more than none-mages? Most people in Thedas don't want to be near to or talk to a tranquil, mages more than others. This is not something to have real life reference, but in a way the Chantry and Templars give birth to mages they make tranquil because they are no longer their former selves and they can only have a "normal" life in circles the Chantry have created. Although they can actually leave if they want.

 

In the end the tranquil are collateral damage, and most of the blame is on the feet of Chantry and Templars. Also the seekers as well for fooling the world for almost a thousand years about tranquility.

[Lulupab]

Sure.  But free will is the most important part.  A Tranquil has all the memories and interests of who they were before and are, if anything, more logical and rational that ordinary people or mages.

 

They live a predictable lives and almost all of them make the same decisions when facing certain situations.

 

I'm finding it hard to call it "free will". They have something, but its not exactly free will. Something between free will and instinct. Wanting to survive does not equal free will.

[Hellion Rex]

They live a predictable lives and almost all of them make the same decisions when facing certain situations.

I'm finding it hard to call it "free will". They have something, but its not exactly free will. Something between free will and instinct. Wanting to survive does not equal free will.

They have as much free will as anyone else. Their choices are not abrogated by an outside force. Lack of emotions might bias them in a particular direction, but that does not take away from their ability to choose at all.

[Lulupab]

They have as much free will as anyone else. Their choices are not abrogated by an outside force. Lack of emotions might bias them in a particular direction, but that does not take away from their ability to choose at all.

 

They have very limited individuality though. They choose but all of them end up choosing the same things. Their actions and thoughts seem downright robotic, but that doesn't mean they can't choose, they are more like an AI.

[MisterJB]

She's a creepy fetishist. Would she continue caring about them if they were healed?

Really? I mean, really?

To appreciate traits makes one a "creepy fetishist"? I could just as easily claim the entire pro-mage fandom are creepy fetishists because, really, how many would care for them if they didn't have these cool powers?

 

[Daerog]

They are not without feelings or desire for security and comfort.

When Uldred unleashed abominations in his Circle and the Templars and Wynne had to close the gates, Owain sought out the storeroom. Why? Not because it was defensible or hidden, but because it was comforting to him, it was familiar to him, and during a high stress situation, he sought out comfort when immediate security was closed off.

While I say that the GE had a responsibility towards the Tranquil, just like she does towards every mage forced into the Circle, I don't recall the Templar killing Tranquil. So, it is possible Fiona didn't pay too much attention to them since they were not in as much danger. Still, as GE and the instigator for the rebellion, she is responsible for them.

[Daerog]

They have very limited individuality though. They choose but all of them end up choosing the same things. Their actions and thoughts seem downright robotic, but that doesn't mean they can't choose, they are more like an AI.

Heh, reminds me of the geth.

However, their individuality does poke through in some fashion. Owain with finding comfort in the storeroom and that one researcher in Inquisition having a knack or preference for biology.

Behaviors in healthy humans can be predictable, but with dulled emotions, it is true these prediction can be made more frequently with fewer variables at work.

[Captain Wiseass]

While it doesn't obivate Fiona's responsibilities, one does wonder why Vivienne's loyalists didn't try to provide aid or shelter to the abandoned Tranquil.