29 réponses à ce sujet

[Aliceeverafter]

Several questions about this ...

 

1. Ok mages are made tranquil by the use of the lyrium brand on their foreheads according to the dragonage wikia - is this how they are made tranquil? I can't find any info anywhere on any other mechanism or technique. Maybe it was in an earlier game? I only finished DA:I.

 

2. With that in mind how are Seekers made tranquil (as Cassandra is, and then has her tranquility broken by a spirit of faith) because i don't see a sunburst brand on her forehead?

 

3. And how does the spirit break the tranquility? Is this a case of the spirit rejoining the person to the fade? and if so what's stopping other spirits just doing this because they can?

 

4. Can only mages be made tranquil - and if so does that mean Seekers have magical ability (unlike templars who have to take lyrium to have any powers). Is Cassandra a mage? this is getting weird.

 

5. And if mages can be made un-tranquil does the lyrium brand get removed (if it is the means of making them tranquil in the first place)?

 

hmmm curiouser and curiouser said Alicceverafter ...

Modifié par Aliceeverafter, 19 juin 2016 - 03:02 .

[Xerrai]

1. I don't recall any other mechanism used durring the traditional right. But there may be more to it (maybe the phylactery is used?)

2. Cassandra and all other seekers presumably become tranquil near the later stages of the Vigil. It is said that in meditation, they drive away all emotion in thier being while they focus on the purity of thier faith. The 'lack of emotion' derived from thier meditation is presumably what made them Tranquil.

3. Tranquility is supposedly broken when a spirit touches your mind. Possession or a brief lingering in the mind could accomplish this. This 'spirit touch' presumably reconnects them to the fade. Because the tranquil lack passion however, it is considered rare for a spirit to take interest. Especially for possession.

The Seeker ritual and what appears to be torture apparatuses in the western approach all seem to indicate that somehow illiciting strong emotion is key to making a spirit 'see' the tranquil.

4. It appears anyone can be made tranquil. But as with possession, most are under the impression it only applies to mages regardless. But we know from Cassandras personal quest that this is not the case. Seekers (most of which were non Mage Templars) gain thier abilities once the vigil ritual is comepletly and a spirit of faith touches the mind. One can now claim that this technically makes them a Mage (thier abilities no longer come from lyrium now, just will) but most Seekers would be quick to deny it. After all, if they are a Mage at all then they are very peculiar ones. Most of thier abilities are related to manipulating lyrium and little else.

5. I'm not too sure on the tatoo.

[Gervaise]

The mechanism has never been fully explained.   The lyrium brand only appeared in DA2 and then seems to have disappeared again, since the Tranquil we meet in DAI do not have it.     Anyway, for some reason, the mark of lyrium (brand or otherwise) seems to block your connection to the Fade (a bit like a super strengthened veil).   This also apparently makes you "invisible" to spirits because of your lack of emotions.    Why cutting you off from the Fade removes your emotions has never been fully explained either.   After all dwarves cannot do magic because of their natural resistance to magic and they apparently do not dream or enter the Fade, yet they have emotions.

 

No idea what happens with Seekers.   I think Cassandra would remember being branded with lyrium.   So their method is a different one where the person empties themselves of all emotions through meditation and focusses on the Maker, thus attracting a faith spirit even though they are simply focussing, not showing emotion.    It is also not clear whether the spirit stays with them or what but it then renders them immune to blood magic mind control and possession by any other spirit.   Most Seekers are recruited as children, so I imagine it must have something to do with their mind being more open and malleable that allows this to work.   It seems to have gone wrong  in the case of mage Seekers which is why they realised it could be used to neutralise them.  However, Ameridan seemed to have a familiar spirit that assisted him, so it is possible he underwent it successfully.

 

The spirit has to be attracted to the tranquil by someone else, because the spirit will normally not "see" them, unless they are in a place where the Veil is very thin.    Apparently the spirit only has to touch their mind, not possess them for it to work.

 

As for the tattoo, well as I say, it only made a visible appearance in DA2, having not been present in DAO or in DAI, so I think that part can be disregarded.   Whatever makes the mage tranquil, it can't simply be the physical presence of the lyrium, otherwise they would become tranquil again as soon as the spirit stopped touching their mind, just as Karl did in fact in DA2.

[Medhia_Nox]

A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine... go down, in the most delightful way...

 

They sing that to you, before everything goes.... tranquil.

 

True story.

[BansheeOwnage]

Well, I can say this:

 

Tranquility means and is caused by being severed completely from the fade. Therefore, it works on non-mages because they still have an unconscious connection to it. It's implied that you don't need a spirit to break tranquility per se, you just need a piece of the fade, which spirits are. This is explained in DA2 when Vengeance's proximity to Karl made him return to normal temporarily. He explains this himself. (He also explains that it is a fate worse than death and asks to be killed before he becomes tranquil again.)

 

Because of this, I have a feeling that if you brought a tranquil into the fade physically, à la Here Lies the Abyss, they would be restored. Obviously this would mean you most likely couldn't become tranquil in a world without the veil. Would being near a rift be enough? I don't know.

 

Hopefully that helps a bit.

[The Baconer]

There doesn't seem to be any real logic or sense in how the Seeker ritual works. And after WoT vol. 2 failed to address it, I don't expect we'll ever get an actual explanation. 

[Aliceeverafter]

  Many thanks for all replies so far. Was wondering if i'd missed some info from first 2 games and the Karl bit is interesting.

 

There doesn't seem to be any real logic or sense in how the Seeker ritual works.

That was my impression too.

 

Because of this, I have a feeling that if you brought a tranquil into the fade physically, à la Here Lies the Abyss, they would be restored. Obviously this would mean you most likely couldn't become tranquil in a world without the veil. Would being near a rift be enough? I don't know.

That's a good point, thanks.

 

  The lyrium brand only appeared in DA2 and then seems to have disappeared again, since the Tranquil we meet in DAI do not have it.    

And I didn't realise this.

 

Thanks again

[BansheeOwnage]

The mechanism has never been fully explained.   The lyrium brand only appeared in DA2 and then seems to have disappeared again, since the Tranquil we meet in DAI do not have it.

That's not true, if you're referring to the tattoo.

Spoiler

 

 

Edit: I was trying to link a picture of Clemence the Tranquil, from Redcliffe, as well, but for reasons known only to whoever made BSN, you can't link images from the Dragon Age wiki of all places

[Gilli]

Edit: I was trying to link a picture of Clemence the Tranquil, from Redcliffe, as well, but for reasons known only to whoever made BSN, you can't link images from the Dragon Age wiki of all places

 

You need to look at the image url, the url which you put into the picture icon in the BSN needs to end with either .jpg, or .png, everything past that makes the tool go nuts.

 

Example:

Full url: http://vignette4.wik...=20141215093836

Does not work as pic

 

Url with the ending part cut off

http://vignette4.wik...ceRedcliffe.png

[BSpud]

The mage/seeker simply throws her hands up into the air and yells, "TRANQUILITY NOW!!!"

 

Done.

[Gervaise]

Well that's weird because I'm sure he doesn't have it in my games and in fact I went and checked on You Tube and I didn't see it there either.   Perhaps it is not on the PC version.   I'll go back and see if I can check it out tomorrow but I'm sure he doesn't have it.   In fact why would I need to ask him if he is tranquil if it is there visible on his face?

[Ms. Sarsaparilla]

1) It's not clear how people are made tranquil, but it's possible the rite of tranquility is similar to the process the Qunari use to make mindless laborers known as Viddath-bas. There are some interesting similarities in the symptoms, and the glowing orb, presumably qamek, looks suspiciously lyrium-like. (See http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qamek in the spoilers section for Those Who Speak).

 

2) I don't think anyone knows the answer to how seekers are made tranquil either, but it was somehow done to Cassandra without her knowledge. Either the process is more subtle that we thought, or her memories of the rite were erased during the process. While I can't prove it one way or another, I personally think it must be the same procedure as used on the mages, because if not, she and the Inquisitor would (or should) be asking a whole different set of questions, like "how can you be sure you were really tranquil" and "would the same cure work for both kinds of tranquility"

 

3) This is a very good question, especially since one of the reasons given for Tranquility is to remove the risk of possession.

 

4) I'm pretty sure than anyone (or even a bear) can be made tranquil, it's just only done to mages, at least in Southern Thedas.

 

I suspect some of these questions might be answered in DA 4, given the relationship of tranquility to the fade. I also suspect that much of what we think we know about Tranquility will be proven false. It's just a hunch and a head-canon, but what if the tranquil are not truly emotionless, just...severed from their emotions and unable to express them through their physical form?

[Gilli]

Well that's weird because I'm sure he doesn't have it in my games and in fact I went and checked on You Tube and I didn't see it there either.   Perhaps it is not on the PC version.   I'll go back and see if I can check it out tomorrow but I'm sure he doesn't have it.   In fact why would I need to ask him if he is tranquil if it is there visible on his face?

 

I play on PC, it is seeable on PC. Maybe check your graphic settings. 

[nightscrawl]

It's not a "tattoo." When they say a phrase like, "If you don't cooperate you get the brand," that is what it is, a brand. The flesh is burned. This is more noticeable with the DA2 mark because of the way the skin looks in that game. So it is logical to assume that even if a tranquil person were to be restored, their brand would remain because it is a permanent scar.

[Gervaise]

So is the brand what severs their connection to the Fade or is that just a means of marking them as having gone through the Rite?    If the latter it would help Templars see who was "safe" with regard to possession, so they don't have to worry about them (or so they think); if the former then how does it sever the connection and why is their restoration permanent, since the brand is still physically there?

 

Much of the alleged "cure" is only theoretical.   There are only two instances of it occurring in practice.   With Karl it was only temporary and occurred when Justice emerged and came to the forefront of Anders' consciousness during our fight with the Templars.    Once Justice had receded back into Anders' mind, the effect wore off.   With Pharamond he was actually possessed by a demon.   He claims this was not what restored him but came after he had already been restored, which suggests he was immediately placed at risk of possession by being restored.    Then Rhys theorises that any spirit would do; however benign spirits are harder to attract and generally need a spirit medium like himself.   I think it is the degree of uncertainty over this that makes Cassandra wary of just announcing "we have a cure for tranquillity" because the mechanism is not fully understood.   

 

I feel this is one of those areas where the writers didn't fully think through the implications of this new plot twist because there do appear to be contradictions in the whole thing and the connection between how Seekers are made temporarily tranquil and how mages are made "permanently" tranquil is not clear.    When Divine Justinia authorised the research on the effect on the mage's mind, she was trying to establish if it was possible to deny the mage the link to the Fade, removing their magical powers and attraction to demons, without also neutering their mind with regard to emotions.   She also wanted to find out if it could be reversed.    The answer to the second enquiry would appear to be that it can.    The answer to the first enquiry would appear to be that the two go together; but I'd still like to know why?   As I say above, dwarves are not connected to the Fade, cannot do magic, yet have emotions, exactly what the Divine was trying to reproduce with mages.   Solas says that the elves post Veil seemed like tranquil to him but that suggests he does not appreciate how truly horrific tranquillity is because whilst the elves lost their magical ability, they certainly did not lose their emotions, judging by their reaction immediately following his action and the state of modern elves, some of whom can in fact still do magic.     

 

So strengthening the barrier between the mage and the Fade will reduce their ability to do magic or render it null and void.   However, why does it affect their emotions?   That does in fact sound much more like the mage has been given a substance similar to qamek.    Yet tranquil are not mindless drones.   They have freewill, just not the emotional drive to use it and can still think very effectively in logical fashion, hence their single minded focus on the job at hand and their ability to produce enchantments, just like the dwarves, which both mages and qamek filled qunari mages cannot do.   Also, from what we have been told to date, the effect of qamek is permanent, it destroys the mind and is not reversible.   Mind you, they used to say tranquillity was permanent so who knows?

 

The situation regarding tranquillity could well be important to future plots.   Dorian states that Tevinter uses the Rite to punish political dissidents and thus he was very interested in the possibility of a "cure" because he knew mages who had been subjected to it.  So I hope they get the ideas behind the whole process sorted out because it does seem strange that it has been around for the best part of 800 years, possibly longer, is used in Tevinter to avenge oneself on political rivals and yet no one sympathetic to the victim had realised how simply it would be to restore them.   You'd think with the free use of magic and spirits in Tevinter, with none of the restrictions down south, somewhere along the line a tranquil would have been accidentally restored as a result of a spirit "touching" their mind, even if their friends hadn't figured it out for themselves.

[Sifr]

It's not a "tattoo." When they say a phrase like, "If you don't cooperate you get the brand," that is what it is, a brand. The flesh is burned. This is more noticeable with the DA2 mark because of the way the skin looks in that game. So it is logical to assume that even if a tranquil person were to be restored, their brand would remain because it is a permanent scar.

 

Does this have to be part of the ritual though, because if the Tranquil don't prevent others from abusing or mistreating them, I can't picture them stopping anyone who sought to forcibly tattoo or brand a mark onto their foreheads?

 

It could be that in the old days an actual branding iron was used, as Tranquility was meant as a punishment for the worst offenders, but nowadays the symbol is merely tattooed on and the old terminology continues to be used. Similar to how in the UK, the term "torch" is still used for portable light, despite utilising electricity to generate it and not fire.

 

I imagine that the same is also true of the "brand" given to the Casteless Dwarves, where dwarven criminals were branded with irons as punishment for their transgressions, that eventually evolved into a tattooed mark to distinguish criminals (or their descendants) from the rest of society.

 

Perhaps the Rite of Tranquility severs the mage's mind from the Fade, but the actual mark itself comes later, so they can keep track of those who have undergone the Rite. Using lyrium in the tattoo might be a means to see if it worked, as Tranquil are capable of handling raw lyrium without incident, while lyrium exposure is often instantly fatal to normal mages?

[nightscrawl]

So is the brand what severs their connection to the Fade or is that just a means of marking them as having gone through the Rite?    If the latter it would help Templars see who was "safe" with regard to possession, so they don't have to worry about them (or so they think); if the former then how does it sever the connection and why is their restoration permanent, since the brand is still physically there?

If the phrasing is that they are "branded with lyrium," that suggests that the branding iron is made out of lyrium. It could be symbolic to use that specific method, or there might be a magical reason for doing so. We just can't know. But I doubt it has to be so elaborate as the Chantry sunburst, or even on the forehead, and would assume that that is meant to serve as a warning in addition to being easily recognizable.
 

Much of the alleged "cure" is only theoretical.   There are only two instances of it occurring in practice.   With Karl it was only temporary and occurred when Justice emerged and came to the forefront of Anders' consciousness during our fight with the Templars.    Once Justice had receded back into Anders' mind, the effect wore off.   With Pharamond he was actually possessed by a demon.   He claims this was not what restored him but came after he had already been restored, which suggests he was immediately placed at risk of possession by being restored.    Then Rhys theorises that any spirit would do; however benign spirits are harder to attract and generally need a spirit medium like himself.   I think it is the degree of uncertainty over this that makes Cassandra wary of just announcing "we have a cure for tranquillity" because the mechanism is not fully understood.

The cure for mages, perhaps, but not for seekers. The entire process of becoming a seeker is based around being made tranquil and then being restored. They've done this thousands of times over the centuries. I'm sure they've perfected the method by now.

 

Does this have to be part of the ritual though, because if the Tranquil don't prevent others from abusing or mistreating them, I can't picture them stopping anyone who sought to forcibly tattoo or brand a mark onto their foreheads?

An interesting point. As above, I will point to the phrasing of "branded with lyrium" and say that we don't know whether that is required, or not.

I'm sure lyrium is used in the ritual, even with the seekers, and I doubt that the physical act of branding is required. But it may be that the templar method evolved in a different way from the seeker method to include symbolism because of how tranquility is used by that organization.
 

It could be that in the old days an actual branding iron was used, as Tranquility was meant as a punishment for the worst offenders, but nowadays the symbol is merely tattooed on and the old terminology continues to be used. Similar to how in the UK, the term "torch" is still used for portable light, despite utilising electricity to generate it and not fire.
 
I imagine that the same is also true of the "brand" given to the Casteless Dwarves, where dwarven criminals were branded with irons as punishment for their transgressions, that eventually evolved into a tattooed mark to distinguish criminals (or their descendants) from the rest of society.
 
Perhaps the Rite of Tranquility severs the mage's mind from the Fade, but the actual mark itself comes later, so they can keep track of those who have undergone the Rite. Using lyrium in the tattoo might be a means to see if it worked, as Tranquil are capable of handling raw lyrium without incident, while lyrium exposure is often instantly fatal to normal mages?

Again, the appearance of the mark shows that it's not just a tattoo; the flesh is clearly burned. Also, in the DAI game files, the tranquility mark is placed alongside the various other scars.

[German Soldier]

4) I'm pretty sure than anyone (or even a bear) can be made tranquil, it's just only done to mages, at least in Southern Thedas.

I don't think this is true.
Those who are not in link with the fade cannot be made into tranquils and as far as i'm concerned dwarves and animals are not connected to the fade.

[Aliceeverafter]

Some great replies here, thanks guys

 

Having read the wikia entry on templars it says this about templars taking lyrium:

 

Cole says that the bodies of the templars become incomplete and try to connect to something older and bigger than they are. They reach for that "other thing" and magic has no room to come in.^[12]

 

so i'm wondering if this lyrium brand, and therefore tranquility, acts in the same way as for the templars, and effectively blocks, or 'denies' to use the templar page phrasing, the existence of magic.

 

Fenris being covered in the stuff can actually phase into the fade, he doesn't use magic as far as i understand it.

 

the lack of emotions is one of those things it feels some bioware writer came up with, somebody agreed, and nobody thought it through properly!

 

As the dwarves don't suffer lack of emotion but have no magic i can't see how the two are linked. Karl had his emotions restored temporarily. maybe it's a side effect of the lyrium cutting off the magic in a sort of backlash? Dwarves haven't had it forcibly removed so don't suffer any backlash?

 

If the phrasing is that they are "branded with lyrium," that suggests that the branding iron is made out of lyrium. It could be symbolic to use that specific method, or there might be a magical reason for doing so. We just can't know. But I doubt it has to be so elaborate as the Chantry sunburst, or even on the forehead, and would assume that that is meant to serve as a warning in addition to being easily recognizable.
 

The cure for mages, perhaps, but not for seekers. The entire process of becoming a seeker is based around being made tranquil and then being restored. They've done this thousands of times over the centuries. I'm sure they've perfected the method by now.

 

An interesting point. As above, I will point to the phrasing of "branded with lyrium" and say that we don't know whether that is required, or not.

I'm sure lyrium is used in the ritual, even with the seekers, and I doubt that the physical act of branding is required. But it may be that the templar method evolved in a different way from the seeker method to include symbolism because of how tranquility is used by that organization.
 

Again, the appearance of the mark shows that it's not just a tattoo; the flesh is clearly burned. Also, in the DAI game files, the tranquility mark is placed alongside the various other scars.

 

 

 

It's part of the rite, the lyrium being what severs the link to the Fade. David Gaider said this here http://forum.bioware...quil/?bioware=1

 

he also suggests the brand could be anywhere in the same topic.

[German Soldier]

The answer to the first enquiry would appear to be that the two go together; but I'd still like to know why? As I say above, dwarves are not connected to the Fade, cannot do magic, yet have emotions, exactly what the Divine was trying to reproduce with mages. Solas says that the elves post Veil seemed like tranquil to him but that suggests he does not appreciate how truly horrific tranquillity is because whilst the elves lost their magical ability, they certainly did not lose their emotions, judging by their reaction immediately following his action and the state of modern elves, some of whom can in fact still do magic.

So strengthening the barrier between the mage and the Fade will reduce their ability to do magic or render it null and void. However, why does it affect their emotions?

I would like to know this as well,as it is for now it's just because the writers said so like a rule that does not possess any reason.

[Ms. Sarsaparilla]

I don't think this is true.
Those who are not in link with the fade cannot be made into tranquils and as far as i'm concerned dwarves and animals are not connected to the fade.

 

Although the rite is not actually carried out, you can literally order a bear made tranquil.

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Storvacker

 

It's part of the rite, the lyrium being what severs the link to the Fade. David Gaider said this here http://forum.bioware...quil/?bioware=1

 

he also suggests the brand could be anywhere in the same topic.

 

Fascinating. Thanks for digging this up.

[German Soldier]

Although the rite is not actually carried out, you can literally order a bear made tranquil.

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Storvacker

 

 

 

For what purpose?

It wouldn't work that's why in the end the option is not followed by the narrative.

[The Baconer]

So where and how are the Seekers being branded in a manner that doesn't leave scars? How could they be branded without realizing it? Who is actually rendering them Tranquil when the only one person to be aware of the practice is the Lord Seeker? Does it really just end at being "touched" by a spirit, or is it something more? 

 

It feels like they just wanted to cash in with an "Oh snap" reveal, and preserve some amount of coolness for the Seekers, but they didn't really want to think about the specific mechanics behind it all. 

[Xerrai]

I don't think this is true.
Those who are not in link with the fade cannot be made into tranquils and as far as i'm concerned dwarves and animals are not connected to the fade.

Well for animals, we must confirm that they cannot dream. And maybe a special look at dragons too. Otherwise it could be argued that they are connected to the fade. They would be a bit below non-Mage mortals (minus dwarves) in that case.

But dwarves...that is the real kicker. We know that out of all the races, dwarves are the only ones who have evolved a special relationship to lyrium and the fade. Yet with how they are presented, dwarves are treated more as the exception, rather than the rule when it comes to tranquility and magic.
But it is always a good question to ask why.

[BansheeOwnage]

You need to look at the image url, the url which you put into the picture icon in the BSN needs to end with either .jpg, or .png, everything past that makes the tool go nuts.

 

Example:

Full url: http://vignette4.wik...=20141215093836

Does not work as pic

 

Url with the ending part cut off

http://vignette4.wik...ceRedcliffe.png

Oh, okay, thanks for explaining! At first I thought it simply didn't like .jpgs, but then that was also inconsistent. This makes sense and will help a lot

 

Well that's weird because I'm sure he doesn't have it in my games and in fact I went and checked on You Tube and I didn't see it there either.   Perhaps it is not on the PC version.   I'll go back and see if I can check it out tomorrow but I'm sure he doesn't have it.   In fact why would I need to ask him if he is tranquil if it is there visible on his face?

Because our characters are uneducated ignorant morons who ask questions befitting those traits

 

Who's Mythaaaaaaal?

 

The answer to the first enquiry would appear to be that the two go together; but I'd still like to know why?   As I say above, dwarves are not connected to the Fade, cannot do magic, yet have emotions, exactly what the Divine was trying to reproduce with mages.

My guess is that dwarves still have emotions because they are connected to the fade, it's just that their connection is through another connection - to the titans. The titans certainly seem connected to it, since they fell dormant after the veil was cast and stir when the veil weakens. If the dwarves' connection to a titan is fully restored, they have access to some sort of magic (Valta). This is also supported by what Alice quoted below. That "older and bigger" thing would be the titans, since the Templars are drinking their "blood". Magic "having no room to come in" would also explain dwarves' resistance to it.

 

But that's all just speculation.

Cole says that the bodies of the templars become incomplete and try to connect to something older and bigger than they are. They reach for that "other thing" and magic has no room to come in.^[12]

 

 

Well for animals, we must confirm that they cannot dream. And maybe a special look at dragons too. Otherwise it could be argued that they are connected to the fade. They would be a bit below non-Mage mortals (minus dwarves) in that case.

If I were to speculate further, I'd posit that animals do indeed dream, and the ones with the stronger connections to the fade are "mages" as well. They are what is currently referred to as "magical creatures", such as the phoenix or dragon. Presumably, dragons have among the strongest connections to the fade amongst animals.