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[DreamerM]

... I know this is a small thing, but I wish to the Maker there was a way to do it...

... I like Iron Bull. Or rather, I don't LIKE him, but I think he's a very well-realized and interestingly conflicted character. It's just...

I love playing Mages. The Fail!Mage of other settings doesn't apply to the Dragon Age world. These Mages kick butt.

 

And considering Iron Bull's loyalty to the Qun, and how he will defend it when asked...  I wish there was some way for my Mage Inquisitors to really confront him about the way Mages are treated under the Qun. Especially if you play a Qunari Mage. As it stands, the only one who even brings it up with him is Dorian, who makes a quip about being "collared and Leashed" only to ... well, you know. That's a different kind of leashing going on. So even Dorian gets over it. Even Dorian, who's people have fought the Qunari for the highest stakes possible for centuries, doesn't find what they do to mages as appalling as I do.

Really. I think it's awful. And it's frustrating that I have no way to really express how repulsed I am. I just have to listen to him list off the better parts of the Qun, the knowing your purpose and being worked on like marble by a sculptor... and I can't confront him about how my mage, or others like him or her, are blinded, have their mouths sewn shut, arms bound and are led around on leashes like animals... and that's the BEST case scenario. Captured Tevinter mages have their brains drugged right out of their heads and work as drudges for the rest of their lives. Suddenly even Meredith doesn't look so bad.

I can fight Dorian and Solas about blood magic, but I can't fight Iron Bull about the Qun's treatment of mages. It bothers me. The words just stick in my throat, so to speak. It's burning to be said, and I ... can't ... say it. It makes Bull's laid-back attitude kind of hard to endure. In fact, every conversation I have with Bull is kind of awkward, because there's this great big THING that eats me up that I can't talk to him about. At least, not in a way that makes it clear how MUCH it bothers me.

[Lord of War]

This has really bothered me too, along with some other characters you can't really call out (when Cullen defends Meredith to a Circle mage Inquisitor's face, for example). The best explanation I can think of for it is that just how terribly Saarebas are treated isn't really well known outside Qunari territory.

[robertmarilyn]

There are a lot of instances in the game where our IQs just have to stand there and not get to express how appalled they are by various injustices. I wish we had the opportunity to say more, even if our companions didn't like what we say. 

[DreamerM]

The best explanation I can think of for it is that just how terribly Saarebas are treated isn't really well known outside Qunari territory.

 

Saarabas are "respected," and "honored" and "pittied," .... which makes it even worse, if you ask me. It's one thing if the people doing these terrible things have no idea how terrible they are. It's another when they are 100% aware of what they are doing and feel it's necessary anyway. THAT is someone who is REALLY not going to show you any mercy.

And again, Dorian's people have been on the front line against the Qunari for centuries. Dorian even lists off what the Qunari do to their mages. He still lets Bull tie him up anyway. Is it a role playing thing? Because... that would be... Ugh. That's not kinky sex. That's some dark sshhh.

Ugh. Just... no.

[Lord of War]

Saarabas are "respected," and "honored" and "pittied," .... which makes it even worse, if you ask me. It's one thing if the people doing these terrible things have no idea how terrible they are. It's another when they are 100% aware of what they are doing and feel it's necessary anyway. THAT is someone who is REALLY not going to show you any mercy.

And again, Dorian's people have been on the front line against the Qunari for centuries. Dorian even lists off what the Qunari do to their mages. He still lets Bull tie him up anyway. Is it a role playing thing? Because... that would be... Ugh. That's not kinky sex. That's some dark sshhh.

Ugh. Just... no.

 

This is a big part of why I find their relationship so...squicky, I guess. Dorian, you can really do better.

[vertigomez]

Eh, there are plenty of things you can't bring up with companions. There were tons of people who wanted to jump on Dorian about his slavery comments, Qunquisitors who wanted to be able to talk to Bull about growing up Vashoth, people who wanted to be able to discuss marriage with Josephine, or who weren't ready to sweep Cullen's purgey past under the rug, or who wanted to address Solas's low-key racism.

It's a video game limitation. As far as the Qun's treatment of mages goes - Bull struggles the entire story with the Qun and his relation to it. He has to tell himself (and you) that it's all good so he can keep on believing it and not become a 'murderous savage', which is exactly what he thinks will happen if he goes Tal-Vashoth. Worse still, he knows that if he abandons the Qun and doesn't go crazy, he'll have to live with the knowledge that maybe those Tal-Vashoth he killed on Seheron weren't vicious killers, either.

[SwobyJ]

He'll have to live with the knowledge that maybe those Tal-Vashoth he killed on Seheron weren't vicious killers, either.

 

That's the big thing IMO.

[vertigomez]

That's the big thing IMO.

Yep. Sad thing about fundamentalism. It pits you against everything other.

Fortunately, you can help the guy go with his heart, and then he's just fine not leashing the mages in his life... not until he buys them dinner, first.

[SwobyJ]

Yep. Sad thing about fundamentalism. It pits you against everything other.

It makes me so sad IRL.

[DreamerM]

 Bull struggles the entire story with the Qun and his relation to it.

But never this specific aspect of the Qun, at least as far as I can tell. All he says is he can't imagine Solas getting to continue his Fade studies under the Qun, and Vivianne would be barred from politics. Exactly what WOULD happen to them is... left unsaid. The treatment of Saarabas and captured mages isn't something that comes up in any conversations with anyone. Even Dorian only brings it up once, and it's treated more as playfully-adversarial banter for a meet-cute rather then anything anyone is really upset by.

I hope to the Maker if the next game really is set in Tevinter, this subject will FINALLY get the attention I think it's deserved from the beginning. As it stands, it might be easier just to not recruit Bull rather then deal with this (i admit, totally self-imposed) tension that I can't resolve.

[BansheeOwnage]

There are a lot of instances in the game where our IQs just have to stand there and not get to express how appalled they are by various injustices. I wish we had the opportunity to say more, even if our companions didn't like what we say. 

I agree, I'd like more opportunities in Bioware games to express opinions, even if they clash with companions. This would obviously be good for roleplaying, but would also serve to give our characters more personality in general. I think it's important to see our characters as their own person rather than information sponges.

[SwobyJ]

I agree, I'd like more opportunities in Bioware games to express opnions, even if they clash with companions. This would obviously be good for roleplaying, but would also serve to give our characters more personality in general. I think it's important to see our characters as their own person rather than information sponges.

 

I'm getting some good signs.

 

Heck, even getting approval (and also do we get disapproval?) at asking certain questions makes for sweet RP, or at least the start of greater promise for it.

[vertigomez]

But never this specific aspect of the Qun, at least as far as I can tell. All he says is he can't imagine Solas getting to continue his Fade studies under the Qun, and Vivianne would be barred from politics. The treatment of Saarabas and captured mages isn't something that comes up in any conversations with anyone. Even Dorian only brings it up once, and it's treated more as playfully-adversarial banter for a meet-cute rather then anything anyone is really upset by.

I hope to the Maker if the next game really is set in Tevinter, this subject will FINALLY get the attention I think it's deserved from the beginning. As it stands, it might be easier just to not recruit Bull rather then deal with this (i admit, totally self-created) tension that I can't resolve.

Sure he does, it's just wrapped up in everything else. He has friends who are bas and he knows that he doesn't want them to be killed or subject to qamek, and he has friends that are mages (Dalish, Dorian, Vivienne, a mage Inquisitor...) and he knows that life would suck for them under the Qun. But that knowledge is butting up against his childhood belief system, and that's that the Qun is better than chaos and danger and that most people would be better under the Qun - better fed, better protected, more prosperous, etc.

Lots of things about the Qun bother him, if you really examine what he says and does. But he also doesn't see a feasible alternative unless you convince him.

[DreamerM]

Sure he does, it's just wrapped up in everything else.

 

That's not enough for me. Not even close. I need this specific thing addressed if this (fictional) friendship is to continue.

And I need to know why no one else brings it up either. Really, what the hell Dorian? Do you have so little empathy for what these people DO to your kind? You don't think it's worth, at least, like, ASKING what Bull thinks about that? WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE REALLY BOTHERED BY THIS?

... I am a well-adjusted adult.

[vertigomez]

That's not enough for me. Not even close. I need this specific thing addressed if this (fictional) friendship is to continue.
And I need to know why no one else brings it up either. Really, what the hell Dorian? Do you have so little empathy for what these people DO to your kind? WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE REALLY BOTHERED BY THIS?
... I am a well-adjusted adult.

Different strokes, I guess? I just don't see it as signficiantly worse than any other horrible thing the Qun does, including the existence of qamek and arguably the breeding program. My Brosca didn't get to have a long conversation with Oghren about the evils of the caste system, either.

And compared to other Qunari (including Sten), Bull has way more empathy for mages under the Qun than most people in his society. He thinks about it. He doesn't celebrate it. Befriending mages in the south challenges his view.

Vivienne: I have heard of the life of the Saarebas, Iron Bull, but I'm curious about your viewpoint.
Iron Bull: It's sad, mostly. The magic appears late in childhood just like it does for you folks. Some kid's gone years learning to be a baker or soldier or builder, and then one day, that's all gone.
Vivienne: You sound as though you pity them.
Iron Bull: Well... yes. In theory, they're no different from anyone else. The Tamassrans and the Ben-Hassrath protect everyone from their own mistakes. They're people too, just serving the Qun, but too many Qunari are afraid of them.
Vivienne: Not you, though?
Iron Bull: No. Anyone who takes that burden and lives a good life with it has my respect.

I mean, yeah... you could theoretically pull him aside and say, "the way your society treats its mages is super crappy." But he could just turn around and say, "the way your society treats its poor/elves/elderly is crappy."

[Lord of War]

I mean, yeah... you could theoretically pull him aside and say, "the way your society treats its mages is super crappy." But he could just turn around and say, "the way your society treats its poor/elves/elderly is crappy."

 

It goes beyond that though. The way Qunari treat their mages is horrific.

[DreamerM]

Iron Bull: Well... yes. In theory, they're no different from anyone else. The Tamassrans and the Ben-Hassrath protect everyone from their own mistakes. They're people too, just serving the Qun, but too many Qunari are afraid of them.
Vivienne: Not you, though?
Iron Bull: No. Anyone who takes that burden and lives a good life with it has my respect.

How many Qunari are afraid of the Saarabas is not the problem. And I'd like to know exactly what sort of "good life" Iron Bull sees Saarabas making for themselves with their "Burden" and all that comes with it. I am very curious. 

I don't care if Iron Bull fears or pities or respects the Saarabas. All the "respect" in the world doesn't mean jack if it's not translated into action.

[vertigomez]

It goes beyond that though. The way Qunari treat their mages is horrific.

And to the Qunari, people starving to death on the streets is horrific. A single abomination slaughtering a dozen people is horrific. Leaving your elderly or infirm to rot is horrific.

I'm not defending the Qun, I think it sucks. But if you grow up with this perspective, then yeah, this is your thought process.

[nightscrawl]

I agree, I'd like more opportunities in Bioware games to express opnions, even if they clash with companions. This would obviously be good for roleplaying, but would also serve to give our characters more personality in general. I think it's important to see our characters as their own person rather than information sponges.

"Information sponges" is really the perfect way to phrase it.
 
 

I mean, yeah... you could theoretically pull him aside and say, "the way your society treats its mages is super crappy." But he could just turn around and say, "the way your society treats its poor/elves/elderly is crappy."

Yeah, this is the thing. I don't think we will ever be able to have a truly nuanced conversation in these games. It really is just the PC saying something, the NPC countering with something else, and then the conversation ends or moves on to something different. This is how the Dorian slavery conversation works as well. There are two moments to respond, one of which is unhelpfully emotion-based, and then it ends. You can't really challenge anything or counter with something meaningful.

That said, I thought the conversations with Sten about the Qun were pretty deep, for all his taciturnity. They player did get to question him a great deal and counter with their own thoughts.

[vertigomez]

How many Qunari are afraid of the Saarabas is not the problem. And I'd like to know exactly what sort of "good life" Iron Bull sees Saarabas making for themselves with their "Burden" and all that comes with it. I am very curious.

I don't care if Iron Bull fears or pities or respects the Saarabas. All the "respect" in the world doesn't mean jack if it's not translated into action.

As far as the Qun goes, "not becoming an abomination and killing everyone around you" is "a good life" for a Saarebas. I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that that's the perspective he was brought up with and if you encourage him to go Tal-Vashoth this is one of the beliefs he abandons, as evidenced by his genuine friendships with mages.

If you want to wage war on Par Vollen and save the Saarebas (dunno how much luck you'll have considering how brainwashed Ketojan was), feel free, but there are so many horrific things in this setting that this is just, like, one of a thousand issues that need to be addressed.

[DreamerM]

As far as the Qun goes, "not becoming an abomination and killing everyone around you" is "a good life" for a Saarebas.

 

That's not the Saarabas benefiting though. That's everyone else. The Saarabas just exists as a weapon of war, chained up in the dark, making things blow up until they die.

Really, I don't know why all the children just don't kill themselves when they discover they have magic. Especially if they were all set to be something else.

 

If you want to wage war on Par Vollen and save the Sarebaas (dunno how much luck you'll have considering how brainwashed Ketojan was), feel free, but there are so many horrific things in this setting that this is just, like, one of a thousand issues that need to be addressed.

 

I'm not talking about waging war on Par Vollen. I'm talking about someone, anyone, acknowledging how horrible this really is. At the moment, the only person who even pretended to really care about the Saarabas was the crooked priest in her Villain Eyeliner, and SHE was only using it to try and start a war.

And...godd0aaamn it, even VIVIANNE focuses on the wrong thing. "So you respect the blind deaf living magical-weapon-slaves your religion would make of every mage in the world, Bull? I will imply this makes me think of you as noble." NOT REALLY THE ISSUE, VIVIANNE. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

[vertigomez]

That's not the Saarabas benefiting though. That's everyone else. The Saarabas just exists as a weapon of war, chained up in the dark, making things blow up until they die.

Really, I don't know why all the children just don't kill themselves when they discover they have magic. Especially if they were all set to be something else.

Because they value society over the individual, so a Saarebas who devotes themselves to the Qun (chains and all), is being selfless and noble, doing the right thing for the sake of their mind (no demons) and the safety of everyone around them (no demons). They are part of the whole. Anything that would benefit just the individual (mage, baker, soldier) is anathema to their philosophy.
 

I'm not talking about waging war on Par Vollen. I'm talking about someone, anyone, acknowledging how horrible this really is. At the moment, the only person who even pretended to really care about the Saarabas was the crooked priest in her Villain Eyeliner, and SHE was only using it to try and start a war.
And...godd0aaamn it, even VIVIANNE focuses on the wrong thing. "So you respect the blind deaf living magical-weapon-slaves your religion would make of every mage in the world, Bull? I will imply this makes me think you are noble." NOT REALLY THE ISSUE, VIVIANNE. CONSIDERING YOUR STANCE ON THE TEMPLARS YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Dorian doesn't sound thrilled by it when he first brings it up. Solas has a HUGE problem with the Qun. I mean... we'll probably have a companion at some point who hates this one specific thing, in the same way that Fenris hates slavery and blood magic, and Anders hates the templars. We just haven't explored that POV yet. It'll happen.

[DreamerM]

Because they value society over the individual, so a Saarebas who devotes themselves to the Qun (chains and all), is being selfless and noble, doing the right thing for the sake of their mind (no demons) and the safety of everyone around them (no demons). They are part of the whole. Anything that would benefit just the individual (mage, baker, soldier) is anathema to their philosophy.

 

I don't know which is sadder, the Qunari adult who really believes "this is best" or the child who submits to it. The whole thing makes me ill.

 

 

Dorian doesn't sound thrilled by it when he first brings it up. Solas has a HUGE problem with the Qun.

 

Dorian gets over it, and Solas reserves his deepest hatred for the Tevinter Imperium. For me, I would at least like the option to freak the hell out over the cruelty the Qunari treat as totally normal. Especially at Iron Bull, who I would like to befriend but there's a big big problem...

[vertigomez]

I don't know which is sadder, the Qunari adult who really believes "this is best" or the child who submits to it. The whole thing makes me ill.

Yep, it's pretty heinous.
 

Dorian gets over it, and Solas reserves his deepest hatred for the Tevinter Imperium. For me, I would at least like the option to freak the hell out over the cruelty the Qunari treat as totally normal. Especially at Iron Bull, who I would like to befriend but there's a big big problem...

I would question that Solas hates the Imperium more - nearly all his banter with Bull is him ranting about how awful it is, and grilling Bull on how he finds any of it acceptable, etc. And Dorian and Vivienne are ultimately more concerned with the immediate threat of the Breach. Saarebas from a far away land just aren't their first priority.

If it helps, you could play a character who hopes that being a trustworthy, amicable, free mage will win Bull over. This is how I played my Vashoth character. Basically, "I know what your society thinks of me/my parents, but look how much of a bloodthirsty ravenous monster I'm not!" and then you get his quest and say bye-bye to the Qun forever.

[nightscrawl]

I think this is going to be one of those instances where the OP will never be able to satisfied if they can't address it with Bull personally in the game.

 

While the following suggestion isn't for everyone, it did work for me on one occasion.

 

If you happen to write fanfic, you could just write out a scene to "fix" this problem. The way I used it was with the post-Mythal conversation with Dorian. I didn't change the conversation itself, because to me that is in-game canon and I don't alter things like that when I write fanfic, but I did write out a lengthy conversation/argument where the return to Tevinter was discussed. I really disliked the options that were provided to the player for that conversation, so I was able to make it so that my character was displeased with his own words, thought about it, and then came back to the issue later on. This allowed me to really roleplay in the way that I wanted, in the manner befitting my character and how he looked at their relationship. The result of the in-game conversation doesn't change, but my character's response is able to be more elaborate, and consequently I felt better about it and can incorporate that into my headcanon since there is nothing in the game to dispute its existence.

 

But again, I understand this solution isn't for everyone, whether that is because you don't write fanfic, have no interest in it, or just need for it to be in the game itself for it to seem real. But it might help, so I suggest it.