99 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

I would question that Solas hates the Imperium more - nearly all his banter with Bull is him ranting about how awful it is, and grilling Bull on how he finds any of it acceptable, etc. And Dorian and Vivienne are ultimately more concerned with the immediate threat of the Breach. Saarebas from a far away land just aren't their first priority.

 

"Qunari are savage creatures, their ferocity held in check only by the rigid teaching of the Qun".

 

It's kind of painful whenever you hear that from Solas as an Adaar, because it's so very similar to what Bull says about how they need the Qun to keep themselves in check, something that the Vashoth seem to demonstrate really isn't true whatsoever. Adaar's former group come across as a little rambunctious maybe, but they weren't a roaming band of blood-thirsty savages... really, Kaariss' poetry seems to be the only thing that ticks them off.

 

It bothers me that we cannot call Solas out and explain that we are not our people, something Cassandra rightly says she offers us the job as Inquisitor. Even Cole seems to get this, where his scan of Adaar suggests that something in Qunari blood may cause violent urges, but they can still choose whether or not to act on them.

[DreamerM]

I would question that Solas hates the Imperium more - nearly all his banter with Bull is him ranting about how awful it is, and grilling Bull on how he finds any of it acceptable, etc.

 

If you sacrifice the Chargers, Solas basically says, "You are QUNARI. I cannot be disappointed in your decisions. As a mindless, soulless drone, you could never make any."

The normally quick-witted Iron Bull has no comeback. And I have never wanted to fist-bump a fictional character more.

But even with Solas, it's more the restriction of the Qun, rather then the treatment of it's mages, that seems to gall him. Again, what bothers me is that the only one who even brings up the appalling physical treatment of the Qunari mages is Dorian, who then submits to some pretty submissive roleplay of his own. How...  romantic? Uh... right.
 

If you happen to write fanfic, you could just write out a scene to "fix" this problem.

Would you believe ... well... I've actually tried that? And I gave up when I couldn't come up with a scene that didn't end with the Inquistor (as someone who has seen some pretty horrible things) declaring the Saarabas the most horrible thing she's ever seen and demanding Iron Bull leave the Inquisition and never show his face there again.

.. then I gave up.

[nightscrawl]

Would you believe ... well... I've actually tried that? And I gave up when I couldn't come up with a scene that didn't end with the Inquistor (as someone who has seen some pretty horrible things) declaring the Saarabas the most horrible thing she's ever seen and demanding Iron Bull leave the Inquisition and never show his face there again.

.. then I gave up.

 
I think in that fanfic scenario you would need to incorporate that into a play where you did not recruit him, then you can just rewrite that entire recruitment scene to include that, in addition to other aspects of the Qunari you might not jive with, and use that as a reason for not recruiting him. After all, he fully admits to being a spy working for the Qunari.
 
I can't recall right at the moment, but are there dialogue options in the recruitment scene that would support this? Can you show mistrust of the Qun in that scene? When you recruit Dorian, you have the opportunity to declare your mistrust while also recruiting him -- "Stay if you must, but you’ll be watched."

[vertigomez]

^ Yeah, with Bull if you choose the option that says "Leliana will go over your reports, watch your step, etc." the Inquisitor sounds pretty aggressive about it. Or at least AWR did.

[nightscrawl]

^ OH yes. Yeah I don't take the investigate options in the plays where I don't recruit him, I just hear his basic spiel and say, "No thanks," leaving my Inquisitor's reasons for his own mind. HHP also sounded like a total a-hole with the aggressive options. Geez, chill out, dude.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It irritates me how any criticisms are usually just deflected with the character saying, "in your culture, blah, blah". For one, and maybe most glaringly, it seems to usually largely only apply if you're playing a human character, the only ones with any real power to make the "rules". Nagging an oppressed minority for being oppressed in their homeland, as if that's as bad as being part of an oppressive majority somewhere else and still towing the party line, is pretty absurd. They're not really responses tailored for other races. The alienages and similar issues characters bring up don't really apply to someone playing a Dalish elf or Tal-Vashoth character. I wouldn't honestly say that's "their culture" at work.

 

But, secondly, what if you hate those aspects of your own culture and would do anything to change them? What if you spend the whole game fighting them? It seems like a massive brush off. It doesn't answer how the character actually feels, not really. I want to ask them if they're actually willing to fight to change these things, or if they just think, "oh well, everyone has problems, no sense worrying about it". The brush off just seems like a cheap dodge and you never get a chance to respond with any real opinions on the issues they bring up. Basically, I think these sensitive issues could probably be handled better, but I guess it's just an issue of limitations and not having time or resources to flesh out multiple paths of arguments for various beliefs. I still wish they could at least be clear on whether or not they think these things are worth fighting against, rather than just defending them as "no worse" than (maybe not even really) your character's cultural flaws.

 

I always play a character that pushed for social reforms and supports those that face undue oppression wherever I can. What I really want to know isn't if they think there are equitable flaws in the Andrastrian majority countries we've visited so far. I know there are major problems there and my choices in game should speak for my belief that those things should be actively fought against at every opportunity. What I want to know from my companions or other NPCs is whether they feel the same about flaws in their own cultures. Do they believe those things are worth fighting against, or do they just accept it? And, if they just accept it, that's what I want to challenge. My problem with it is that it always feels like the game assumes the only reason you'd needle a non-Andrastrian about the flaws in their culture is if you're trying to leverage some moral superiority for Andrastrianism. For the type of characters I play, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I feel like these responses miss the point for my intentions, which makes them ultimately really unsatisfying. 

[tanzensehen]

I was bothered by not being able to adress how mages are treated under the Qun, but I assumed that my Inquisitor had no clue and that Bull couldn't bring himself to talk about it because it would have meant accepting how bad the Qun is, and at that point he sees the Qun as the only thing keeping him sane. He turns himself for re-education. Twice if you kill the Chargers, because the Qun is not working for him anymore.
I'm also less angry about it because 
a) the Qunari think that everyone could turn into a killing maching without the Qun, unlike what happens with the mages under the Chantry, where only mages are considered always on the verge of turning into abominations. 

Tallis from MotA is still the worst when talking about Serabaas.
c) Once he becomes Tal-Vashot, you know that he wouldn't approve of it.

 

I think that the game should have let you ask the same questions twice, once at the start and one towards the end. I'm pretty sure that Dorian would have a different view on slavery once he is not still blind to how privileged his life was in Tevinter. Everytime I ask him about slavery he sounds more like he is trying to justify why he never considered slavery as a problem instead of seriously adressing the issue. He just sounds defensive about it.
Same thing with Bull. I heard that Sera changes a bit her views  on elfy stuff in Trespasser, so at least there's that. 

 

But even with Solas, it's more the restriction of the Qun, rather then the treatment of it's mages, that seems to gall him. Again, what bothers me is that the only one who even brings up the appalling physical treatment of the Qunari mages is Dorian, who then submits to some pretty submissive roleplay of his own. How...  romantic? Uh... right.

 
Can we keep BDSM out of this? They have a happy consensual relationship, and they have it because they know each other and they trust each other to not be horrible people.
 

[DreamerM]

Can we keep BDSM out of this? They have a happy consensual relationship, and they have it because they know each other and they trust each other to not be horrible people.

The BDSM isn't the problem! Long live BDSM! Go for it!

It's the BDSM in the larger context of... let me see if I can explain...

 

...I am so sorry for this, it's the best comparison I could think of.

 

It's like if an interracial couple used "plantation roleplay" in the bedroom. Except, in this case, it's in a time when real plantations still exist, and their abuses are all too real.

Maybe it works for them. Maybe they are happy together, working out their kinky, forbidden, "un-PC"  sex fantasy someplace safe. Maybe, for them, this is as good a way as any to work out their feelings towards dark, unpleasant, or taboo topics.

If Dorian and Iron Bull have kinky sex, more power to them. It's just... with Dorian in the submissive position and considering what the Qun does to mages, especially mages from Tevinter...

 

THAT is the part that bothers me. I'm not sure which is worse, if they just ignore that and pretend like it doesn't exist, or if they know it does and this is their way of...uh... working through it? Uh ... I don't know. Just... I can't.


 

[thats1evildude]

I would warn against being offended on other peoples' behalf, especially when it comes to what two consenting adults are doing in the bedroom. Even if there's a slight "problematic" tinge to their relationship, it's really up to Dorian to object.

 

I mean, if my girlfriend liked being called a dirty sl*t during sex, would you kick down the door and lecture her mid-penetration about how politically incorrect it is?

[nightscrawl]

^ The OP isn't offended on Dorian's behalf, they're creeped out by the circumstance on their own behalf because the Qunari treatment of mages is personally disturbing for them.

 

 

(That's my take, anyway, sorry if I spoke out of turn, OP.)

[tanzensehen]

 

If Dorian and Iron Bull have kinky sex, more power to them. It's just... with Dorian in the submissive position and considering what the Qun does to mages, especially mages from Tevinter...

 

THAT is the part that bothers me. I'm not sure which is worse, if they just ignore that and pretend like it doesn't exist, or if they know it does and this is their way of...uh... working through it? Uh ... I don't know. Just... I can't.

 

 

I think that they don't see it is as an issue? The reason why they are friends in the first place is that they don't see each other as "the Qunari invader and the evil Magister" but as people. There is some element of the whole "Romeo and Juliet" thing but their relationship works because it's not a problem for them. Also I think that they relationship starts after their personal quests, so eh. 
(And... well, it's not like Dorian can help being a sub or Bull can avoid being a dom. That's who they are.)

I mean, it's the same thing as Cullen and Fenris with a mage (for two very different reason).

[Lord of War]

I think that they don't see it is as an issue? The reason why they are friends in the first place is that they don't see each other as "the Qunari invader and the evil Magister" but as people. There is some element of the whole "Romeo and Juliet" thing but their relationship works because it's not a problem for them. Also I think that they relationship starts after their personal quests, so eh. 
(And... well, it's not like Dorian can help being a sub or Bull can avoid being a dom. That's who they are.)

I mean, it's the same thing as Cullen and Fenris with a mage (for two very different reason).

 

I've always thought Cullen with a mage was just as creepy, especially considering he'll still defend Meredith to their face.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The Dorian/Iron Bull relationship doesn't bother me as much because of the background each comes from. The Qunari and Tevinter are at war and both of these individuals come from positions of power in their respective societies. They're both from backgrounds that would outright kill the other, basically, and they're both of equal standing in those respective societies. Dorian isn't really an oppressed minority in Iron Bull's culture. Yes, mages are treated terribly, but Dorian isn't a Qunari mage and I feel like that matters. Some people might say it's semantic, but I feel like there are psychological differences to be found there. Dorian likely never worried about being made into a Saarabas, though he may have worried about losing the war and being outright slaughtered, but that's a reverse concern Iron Bull could have also had just as easily. I think what people have to think about is not just how do Qunari treat mages, but how would Tevinter treat a Qunari? Both Dorian and Iron Bull would likely end up dead if the majority of the other's culture had any say in it. So, I'd say if Iron Bull were to hook up with, say, an escaped Tal-Vashoth mage that fled for fear of what the Qunari would do to them and play the whole BDSM game, that would be really messed up. With Dorian, I think they are basically equals and neither really ever had more to fear based on their backgrounds than the other. Although, I think it's basically unclear how they usually get it on. Iron Bull will tell you basically that he does it however he thinks his partner wants it (about the serving girls), so maybe he thinks Dorian wants BDSM stuff, maybe not. There's one line in their banter that implies this kind of thing that seems to be before they're hooking up, but who knows what they ended up doing.

 

The only thing that bothers me about their relationship is this one line of party banter where Iron Bull tells Dorian not to "top from the bottom" when he's being difficult in banter. I romanced Dorian, so I only saw it in a YouTube of their banter. It bothers me because it has this implied feel of mixed sexism and heteronormativity that implies inherent inferiority and submission in being the receiving male partner. I get that it's a joke and I try not to blow it out of proportion, but it bugs me. Iron Bull's machismo attitude and their approach to driving in his dominance and his "top" position is a main reason I don't do his romance, though.

[tanzensehen]

Yeah, Cullen needed more options. Merril and Hawke then? Lavellan and Cassandra?
(I love Cassandra and she is amazing with any Inquisitor but I doubt that Lavellan has the option to call her out about the Chantry).

Still, what I wanted to say is that they overcome their prejudices (and their own issurs in their personal quests) and get together in a BDSM relationship - of which we don't know the details - who makes them happy, and it's a different thing from being allowed to ask Bull what he thinks about the Serabaas.
(I mean, both Bull and Dorian do the same thing with the Inquisitor after all).
I'm talking about Bull turned Tal Vashot by the way, Qun!Bull is obviously creepy after he gets brainwashed and comes back and maybe even before.

Edit: What Nocte ad Morta said. I didn't have a problem with Bull because despite the jokes, he's also pretty sweet and immediatly tells the Inquisitor that he thinks that his relationship with Dorian will work.
It's portrayed better in Trespassser.
(His romance bothered me because, like Josephine's, the Inquisitor needs to acquire super powers to find out what they are supposed to do. It's really sweet, but both the necklace and the duel come out of nowhere.)

[DreamerM]

^ The OP isn't offended on Dorian's behalf, they're creeped out by the circumstance on their own behalf because the Qunari treatment of mages is personally disturbing for them.

 

That's exactly it. I'm not offended on behalf of Dorian. He's an adult who can decide for himself what he wants. What bothers me is their relationship in the context of what it doesn't address. The very first thing Dorian himself brought up in his first-ever banter with Iron Bull, which is the incredibly cruel treatment of mages by the Qunari. Concerns, by the way, which Iron Bull never addresses in any substantial way. He just makes a lot of sexual comments and then next we hear, he and Dorian are doing it and the Qunari treatment of mages is never mentioned again.

Vivianne asks him his opinion of "Saarabas" and he makes noises about how "sad" they are and how they are "worthy of respect." Which, if you ask me, is a great way not to say a damn thing about the real problem.

Really, if there's one group that surpasses even Tevinter in terms of cruelty, it's the Qunari. Given the choice between blood mage slavers and the friggin' Borg, I go with the ones who at least seem human.
 

I think that they don't see it is as an issue? The reason why they are friends in the first place is that they don't see each other as "the Qunari invader and the evil Magister" but as people. There is some element of the whole "Romeo and Juliet" thing but their relationship works because it's not a problem for them.

Romeo and Juliet? Seriously? Maybe if Romeo was sacrificing Montigue servants to fuel his blood magic, and Juliet was blinding and pluckiing out the eyes of children to use them as weapons of war, and breaking the minds of anyone who objects too strongly.

This isn't two feuding families. Iron Bull would hand all of them, Inquisitor, Dorian, the whole organization, over to the Qun if ordered to. You can get him out of that, but the real issue remains unresolved.

[nightscrawl]

I've always thought Cullen with a mage was just as creepy, especially considering he'll still defend Meredith to their face.

Cullen isn't my main DAI romance and in fact I just find him "okay." But I will say that he was my first DAI romance, which I planned even before playing the game. I did romance him on a female mage and part of the reason is because of the history of his crushing on the mage Warden (my canon Warden), so I did like that aspect of it. I doubt I'm alone in this view.
 
However, I can see how it is kinda creepy because of what he went through and all of the Kirkwall happenings.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I've watched the Cullen romance with a mage on YouTube and I think it's at least better in the sense that he's pretty clear that he was wrong in the past and he doesn't see the Inquisitor in that way. With Iron Bull you get nothing concrete concerning mages and he's still very behind the Qun early on, or even the whole way through if you make certain choices. With Dorian, he's very evasive about slaves, although I think a little better than Iron Bull on mages. With Cullen, I think he's very clear on multiple occasions that he knows he was wrong. He went through some hardcore trauma and he knows it messed him up for a while. He wants to atone for that, he literally says as much. I think his "support" of Meredith may be exaggerated, at least in the content I saw. He said she went way too far and he said she lied to him and hid things all the time when he was working under her. I actually went into Inquisition expecting to hate Cullen and instead I feel like he genuinely does regret what happened. A lot of companions have done really bad things and he didn't even support Meredith at end game, so I can let it go.   

[Lord of War]

Cullen isn't my main DAI romance and in fact I just find him "okay." But I will say that he was my first DAI romance, which I planned even before playing the game. I did romance him on a female mage and part of the reason is because of the history of his crushing on the mage Warden (my canon Warden), so I did like that aspect of it. I doubt I'm alone in this view.
 
However, I can see how it is kinda creepy because of what he went through and all of the Kirkwall happenings.

 

I don't know, I just find mage/Templar pairings really gross because of the inherent power imbalance. Don't want to derail the thread here though.

[DreamerM]

This is a little off topic, but as an asside.
 

 I did romance him on a female mage and part of the reason is because of the history of his crushing on the mage Warden (my canon Warden), so I did like that aspect of it.

I know lots of people did that, but you know what?... Yeah, Cullen was clearly infatuated with Fem!Amell, so much so that her likeness was used in what is implied to have been very sexual and very disturbing ways during his torture.

But if you look at the actual interactions Fem!Amell had with him before leaving the tower... I don't get the feeling she returned those feelings. In fact, she seems to have thought he was something of a creeper. A nice, harmless creeper, who would never actually do anything, but still, she was comfortable keeping things as friendly, and distant, as possible. She almost definitely doesn't return the feelings.

That's another thing that bothers me about Dorian and Iron Bull: when it comes to the Inquisitor, Iron Bull is the soul of discretion. When it comes to Dorian, he can't wait to tell everybody the juicy details. The genuine darkness in the relationship between the Qunari and the Tevinter is treated as little more then meet-cute flavoring that makes their forbidden love that much more scandelous. How...adorable?

[tanzensehen]

Romeo and Juliet? Seriously? Maybe if Romeo was sacrificing Montigue servants to fuel his blood magic, and Juliet was blinding and pluckiing out the eyes of children to use them as weapons of war, and breaking the minds of anyone who objects too strongly.

This isn't two feuding families. Iron Bull would hand all of them, Inquisitor, Dorian, the whole organization, over to the Qun if ordered to. You can get him out of that, but the real issue remains unresolved.

Fine, the Thedas version of Romeo and Juliet with two whole countries, blood magic and without teenagers and more poor decisions, you get my drift.

Also no, the fact that Bull would not hand the Inquisition, Dorian or even a random baker to the Qun simply because they order him to is the entire point of his personal quest. If he remains Qunari and gets re-educates yes, he would. Before? No.
If you talk about the issues between them they get risolved off-screen, which is also why Dorian stops asking the Bull why he isn't trying to kill him and stops using "oxman" as an insult. (Also they do talk a lot about other issues before getting together). Considering that the Qun is akin to a religion, after Bull gives it up there isn't anything else to add. He left it behind years ago, and I doubt that he liked those parts anyway.

If you are talking about the Qun, well. From what Gatt says some people want to change some things, so let's hope they manage it?

[nightscrawl]

That's another thing that bothers me about Dorian and Iron Bull: when it comes to the Inquisitor, Iron Bull is the soul of discretion. When it comes to Dorian, he can't wait to tell everybody the juicy details. The genuine darkness in the relationship between the Qunari and the Tevinter is treated as little more then meet-cute flavoring that makes their forbidden love that much more scandelous. How...adorable?

 
No, Iron Bull talks about sex with the Inquisitor too in banter with Sera and Cole. That is Bull being Bull, part of his personality, and has nothing to do with Dorian specifically.

 

 

 

[edit]

Correction, he talks about sex with the Inquisitor with several followers. He has a lot of sexually explicit banter in general, some of which is altered when he is in a romance with either the Inquisitor or Dorian.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 juin 2016 - 11:52 .

[robertmarilyn]

This is a little off topic, but as an asside.
 

I know lots of people did that, but you know what?... Yeah, Cullen was clearly infatuated with Fem!Amell, so much so that her likeness was used in what is implied to have been very sexual and very disturbing ways during his torture.

But if you look at the actual interactions Fem!Amell had with him before leaving the tower... I don't get the feeling she returned those feelings. In fact, she seems to have thought he was something of a creeper. A nice, harmless creeper, who would never actually do anything, but still, she was comfortable keeping things as friendly, and distant, as possible. She almost definitely doesn't return the feelings.

That's another thing that bothers me about Dorian and Iron Bull: when it comes to the Inquisitor, Iron Bull is the soul of discretion. When it comes to Dorian, he can't wait to tell everybody the juicy details. The genuine darkness in the relationship between the Qunari and the Tevinter is treated as little more then meet-cute flavoring that makes their forbidden love that much more scandelous. How...adorable?

 

MY Fem!Amell tried her hardest to start something with Cullen and would chase him down the halls of the tower, she was crushing on him so hard.   

[DreamerM]

If you talk about the issues between them they get risolved off-screen

 

Great for them. What about MY issues? How do I resolve those?

Because just accepting it, just going, "well, it's got to be a headcannon thing,".... that's awfully weak, when it's something this large and this troubling. That's what this whole thread is about, for me.

 

MY Fem!Amell tried her hardest to start something with Cullen and would chase him down the halls of the tower, she was crushing on his so hard.   

Bah, Unrequited Love FTW! I can't stand a happy ending!

[vertigomez]

DreamerM, not trying to be aggressive at all but I think this is a situation where you're just going to be dissatisfied, because you consider this issue to be so much larger than other issues. In the same way, some people are never going to be able to deal with the fact that due to his upbringing Dorian has never really examined slavery, or who can't RP an Aeducan because they can't fathom having that much influence and power and not trying to completely dismantle the caste system. They can't do it. It matters too much to them to just let it go or leave it to headcanon.

This issue with the Saarebas is something you're passionate about, it's troubling to you, but you gotta realize that 1) other characters have their own pet issues and priorities (blood magic, templars...) that - for them - eclipse the Saarebas' situation, and 2) that you may not be able to express your outrage in DAI, but you can get pretty cheesed off about it in DA2 and hopefully you can express a similar sentiment in DA4.

[thesuperdarkone2]

This is a little off topic, but as an asside.
 

I know lots of people did that, but you know what?... Yeah, Cullen was clearly infatuated with Fem!Amell, so much so that her likeness was used in what is implied to have been very sexual and very disturbing ways during his torture.

But if you look at the actual interactions Fem!Amell had with him before leaving the tower... I don't get the feeling she returned those feelings. In fact, she seems to have thought he was something of a creeper. A nice, harmless creeper, who would never actually do anything, but still, she was comfortable keeping things as friendly, and distant, as possible. She almost definitely doesn't return the feelings.

That's another thing that bothers me about Dorian and Iron Bull: when it comes to the Inquisitor, Iron Bull is the soul of discretion. When it comes to Dorian, he can't wait to tell everybody the juicy details. The genuine darkness in the relationship between the Qunari and the Tevinter is treated as little more then meet-cute flavoring that makes their forbidden love that much more scandelous. How...adorable?

Actually, one of femmage warden's lines clearly indicates she's interested in Cullen and is propositioning him for sex. So yes, a female mage warden can indicate interest in Cullen