99 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

DreamerM, not trying to be aggressive at all but I think this is a situation where you're just going to be dissatisfied, because you consider this issue to be so much larger than other issues. In the same way, some people are never going to be able to deal with the fact that due to his upbringing Dorian has never really examined slavery, or who can't RP an Aeducan because they can't fathom having that much influence and power and not trying to completely dismantle the caste system. They can't do it. It matters too much to them to just let it go or leave it to headcanon.

This issue with the Saarebas is something you're passionate about, it's troubling to you, but you gotta realize that 1) other characters have their own pet issues and priorities (blood magic, templars...) that - for them - eclipse the Saarebas' situation, and 2) that you may not be able to express your outrage in DAI, but you can get pretty cheesed off about it in DA2 and hopefully you can express a similar sentiment in DA4.

I think the best solution is for the OP to just not recruit Iron Bull at all, really.
 
Some topics of conversation will never be able to be examined to their full capacity. That's just something we'll have to live with.

[thesuperdarkone2]

This thread makes me remember something:

 

 

Why can't we call out Tallis as a mage Hawke when she says Hawke would do well under the Qun by bringing up what the Qun does to mages? Anders brings this up but Tallis essentially responds by saying shut up.

[Phoe77]

This kind of feeling is nothing new to me really, but I doubt that there's a satisfactory way to address it.  The best that we can do is ask for more ways to respond during the conversation and hope that one of those responses is close enough to what we want to say to suffice.  

 

Of course, even if there was the opportunity to call him out on it, I doubt it would amount to anything at all except possibly some disapproval.  How many times did arguing about a companion's philosophy with them ever get them to do anything but get irritated and shrug the whole thing off?  I know that arguing with Sten or Morrigan in DAO was never particularly satisfying since most everything ended up boiling down to "lol no" by the end of the conversation.

[vertigomez]

This kind of feeling is nothing new to me really, but I doubt that there's a satisfactory way to address it.  The best that we can do is ask for more ways to respond during the conversation and hope that one of those responses is close enough to what we want to say to suffice.  
 
Of course, even if there was the opportunity to call him out on it, I doubt it would amount to anything at all except possibly some disapproval.  How many times did arguing about a companion's philosophy with them ever get them to do anything but get irritated and shrug the whole thing off?  I know that arguing with Sten or Morrigan in DAO was never particularly satisfying since most everything ended up boiling down to "lol no" by the end of the conversation.

Though, to be fair, this is probably how the companions feel when we disagree with them. We just don't see it that way when we think we're in the right.

[Phoe77]

I'd chalk that up to another limitation of video game conversations, to be honest.  There have been times when characters have brought up a good point that I hadn't considered or said something that I would like to agree with.  Outside of tabletop RPGs we're just not going to be able to actually have a natural conversation with another character while at the same time being completely free to formulate our responses.

[DreamerM]

DreamerM...
This issue with the Saarebas is something you're passionate about, it's troubling to you, but you gotta realize that 1) other characters have their own pet issues and priorities (blood magic, templars...) that - for them - eclipse the Saarebas' situation, and 2) that you may not be able to express your outrage in DAI, but you can get pretty cheesed off about it in DA2 and hopefully you can express a similar sentiment in DA4.

Oh I realize those things. Why do you think I'm here on the internet being all invested in the fictional plight of magical people that don't exist? I am 100% aware of how this looks. I have no illusions.

And being "cheesed off" about it in DA 2 requires allying yourself with Mother Racist and her villain-eyeliner. I hope if DA4 really does feature the long-awaited war between Tevinter and Qunari as a key plot point, then you can explore that in more detail, but... that doesn't help me right here, right now. Thus my need to complain to the internet about it. Thank you for indulging me.

[vertigomez]

On I realize those things. Why do you think I'm here on the internet being all invested in the fictional plight of magical people that don't exist? I am 100% aware of how this looks. have no illusions.

And being "cheesed off" about it in DA 2 requires allying yourself with Mother Racist and her villain-eyeliner. I hope if DA4 really does feature the long-awaited war between Tevinter and Qunari as a key plot point, then you can explore that in more detail, but... that doesn't help me right here, right now. Thus my need to complain to the internet about it. Thank you for indulging me.

Hnnn? I never allied with Petrice, though? I mean, you can still escort "Ketojan" out of Kirkwall and when he immolates himself I remember being able to respond in a horrified fashion... what with the questioning and the... horror... I've never done the aggressive option where you actually ally with her and actively work against the Qun, so I dunno what that's like. Pros: more satisfying, cons: villain eyeliner.

Anywho, feel free to continue to be invested in the plight of magical people that don't exist. That's what we're here for!

[tanzensehen]

This thread makes me remember something:

 

 

Why can't we call out Tallis as a mage Hawke when she says Hawke would do well under the Qun by bringing up what the Qun does to mages? Anders brings this up but Tallis essentially responds by saying shut up.

 

Well, to be fair you can't argue with Tallis about anything, at best you can try to get out of the whole thing but you end up having to do what she wants you to do anyway.

[DreamerM]

Well, to be fair you can't argue with Tallis about anything, at best you can try to get out of the whole thing but you end up having to do what she wants you to do anyway.

 

Probably because someone thought those things were less important then the chance someone might get to (pretend) kiss Felicia Day. In elf ears.

Maybe. Just a guess.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I really hated the Mark of the Assassin DLC. Tallis was just the worst on every level and I hated that you could barely even be impolite, considering she was basically the opposite of everything my character believed in. Then she would god-mode and win in the end, and you couldn't do anything to stop her or even really fake an effort. It was so forced from the way things usually are. I know conversation options are usually limited, but in this case is seemed especially egregious and as if we were being heavy handidly forced to think she was super deep and interesting when she was neither. At least in the Keep I can say that I made her angry. Such consequences. lol

[Lord of War]

You can threaten to kill her, but it seems like you're more angry at the situation she's put you in than at her and the Qun,

[Reznore57]

This thread makes me remember something:

 

 

Why can't we call out Tallis as a mage Hawke when she says Hawke would do well under the Qun by bringing up what the Qun does to mages? Anders brings this up but Tallis essentially responds by saying shut up.

 

Probably because the Qunari aren't changing the way they treat Saarebas anytime soon.

They loathe magic and want it even more under control than Vivienne ever does .And of course it's not just a few individuals here and there with that opinion , one of the most important pillar of the Qun is the mastery of the self , and they believe mages are chaotic things who can't truly master themselves ever.

 

As for mage warden and mage Hawke , my honest opinion is the writers gave them a special Qunari snowflake status , "basalit-an" to justify the fact Sten and Ari don't try to kill you and you can have civilised conversation with them and gain their respect.

Somehow I doubt this extend to Saarebas .

The  mage player character never really gets the same exact treatment mages face in Thedas .

 

Anyway I'm not fond of how the Qunari treats their mages but I don't hate them.They are the only one in Thedas educating all of their population , and yes there's probably propaganda in there but education is important imho.They also provide social services to all of their people and they work like some kind of meritocracy.If they weren't so dogmatic they would be pretty cool but obviously not as interesting.

So I can understand why for people like Iron Bull or Tallis it is complicated to throw the Qun under the bus.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Probably because the Qunari aren't changing the way they treat Saarebas anytime soon.

They loathe magic and want it even more under control than Vivienne ever does .And of course it's not just a few individuals here and there with that opinion , one of the most important pillar of the Qun is the mastery of the self , and they believe mages are chaotic things who can't truly master themselves ever.

 

As for mage warden and mage Hawke , my honest opinion is the writers gave them a special Qunari snowflake status , "basalit-an" to justify the fact Sten and Ari don't try to kill you and you can have civilised conversation with them and gain their respect.

Somehow I doubt this extend to Saarebas .

The  mage player character never really gets the same exact treatment mages face in Thedas .

 

Anyway I'm not fond of how the Qunari treats their mages but I don't hate them.They are the only one in Thedas educating all of their population , and yes there's probably propaganda in there but education is important imho.They also provide social services to all of their people and they work like some kind of meritocracy.If they weren't so dogmatic they would be pretty cool but obviously not as interesting.

So I can understand why for people like Iron Bull or Tallis it is complicated to throw the Qun under the bus.

 

But I think what most people are questioning isn't why you can't get the Qunari characters to turn on their belief system and denounce the treatment of mages under the Qun, it's just why you can't get a straight answer either way from them, or in some cases even ask. It would be one thing if they defended their views and wouldn't change them, but generally they just deflect if you can question them about it at all. If they said, "I don't agree with this and I want to change it, but I believe there are things worth keeping in the Qun", like Dorian says about blood magic and other abuses in Tevinter, I could totally get behind them with no ill will. If they said, "I believe that what we do is justified when weighed against the threat of corruption in mages", I wouldn't agree with or support them, but I'd at least feel satisfied that an answer was given.

 

I don't expect to be able to change every companions mind and I definitely don't expect to change the Qunari treatment of mages as some random outsider, but I do feel like the approach to discussing these issues is often handled in a fairly cheap way. It seems as though the writing team doesn't want to dirty their characters with actually digging into the truly controversial parts of certain cultures, so they write deflective lines about Andrastian poverty, say the characters "don't like to think about it" and drop it, or just fail to allow you to mention it. It doesn't even feel like the character, themselves, is deflecting just to stay on the PC's good side, generally speaking. It just feels like the writer didn't want to tackle the hard material, so they intentionally side stepped doing so. That's what bothers me. It's that it feels poorly handled. It's not that I'm just not always getting the answer I want to hear.  

[Reznore57]

But I think what most people are questioning isn't why you can't get the Qunari characters to turn on their belief system and denounce the treatment of mages under the Qun, it's just why you can't get a straight answer either way from them, or in some cases even ask. It would be one thing if they defended their views and wouldn't change them, but generally they just deflect if you can question them about it at all. If they said, "I don't agree with this and I want to change it, but I believe there are things worth keeping in the Qun", like Dorian says about blood magic and other abuses in Tevinter, I could totally get behind them with no ill will. If they said, "I believe that what we do is justified when weighed against the threat of corruption in mages", I wouldn't agree with or support them, but I'd at least feel satisfied that an answer was given.

 

But you hear Tallis and Bull opinions about mages and the Qun in banters , they do not like it much but at the end of the day , they aren't mages themselves , nor the one who are able to change things.

They both say the Qun isn't for everyone and obviously with mages being bound and leashed , mages are probably on their "shouldn't follow the Qun" list.

 

Dorian is kind of the same about slavery in Tevinter , he basically says well you know "that's how it is back home , you don't question it."

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But you hear Tallis and Bull opinions about mages and the Qun in banters , they do not like it much but at the end of the day , they aren't mages themselves , nor the one who are able to change things.

They both say the Qun isn't for everyone and obviously with mages being bound and leashed , mages are probably on their "shouldn't follow the Qun" list.

 

Dorian is kind of the same about slavery in Tevinter , he basically says well you know "that's how it is back home , you don't question it."

 

I don't find that you actually hear what they think in any terms that wouldn't require assumption on the player's part in whatever direction they prefer. Iron Bull is pretty evasive. He says it's "sad" and he "doesn't like to think about it", which isn't much of an answer. It doesn't suggest whether or not he thinks it should change and you don't get the option to push for a clear yes or no. You just have to settle for vague, which is the problem. I found Dorian's reply about slavery to be similarly unsubstantial and disappointing, although I think it's actually slightly more substantial than what you get from Iron Bull. I don't remember Tallis having anything about mages. What does she say?

 

I don't think party banter is an alternative to actually having those choices, though. It just doesn't make sense for PCs that make things like mage and elven rights a major part of their efforts to never question characters on things like this. It's something that should be obviously pressing and I don't see any reason NOT to make it a dialog priority besides that it just makes the writers uncomfortable and they don't know how to handle it in a constructive way, so they dodge it. DA2 was a game heavily based in mage rights and whether or not you support them, but it just never occurred to a Hawke that might support Anders blowing up the Chantry to mention mages to Tallis? That doesn't make any sense at all. It's not something that makes sense as just being dialog that was determined to not be important enough to bother recording. Something like slavery, or leashing certain people and sewing their mouths shut doesn't strike me as something that makes sense as not worth mentioning. They put these things in knowing they'd be the shocking stand out points of the cultures and it feels like they're not comfortable following through on what they started. 

[tanzensehen]

I loved MotA, but had issues with Tallis. That said, being played by Felicia Day was a huge plus.

I don't remember Tallis having anything about mages. What does she say?

If you bring Anders along he immediatly asks Tallis if she thinks that she it's okay for the Qunari to chain their mages and sew their mouths and she snaps and says "This moment yes, I do" because no one is allowed to ask her anything ever.
I think that she is supposed to be aggressive about the Qun because she is also starting to question it and doesn't want to, but I hate that you have no way to argue with her.
(All the companions try to ask her stuff and get ignored by the way, but Hawke doesn't even have the option unless they want to say that the Qunari are heretics.)

[nightscrawl]

But you hear Tallis and Bull opinions about mages and the Qun in banters , they do not like it much but at the end of the day , they aren't mages themselves , nor the one who are able to change things.

They both say the Qun isn't for everyone and obviously with mages being bound and leashed , mages are probably on their "shouldn't follow the Qun" list.

 

Dorian is kind of the same about slavery in Tevinter , he basically says well you know "that's how it is back home , you don't question it."

 

Actually, I look at the Dorian slavery issue differently than Sten, Bull, or Tallis's views on the Qun. Part of Qunari society is indoctrination, and if you don't tow the line you are forcibly reeducated. That is not the same thing as simply being raised in a certain environment. Also, Dorian is established to have a rebellious personality. I understand why he has that viewpoint, but to hear him say, "You don't question it," just makes my Inquisitor want to say to his boyfriend, "YOU don't question it? You question everything!"

 

In the end, where Dorian is concerned, I think his view is more of an example of how being raised in a certain way does change one's perspective. He does try to say this during the conversation itself, and also admits that being in the South is changing that viewpoint. He gets defensive initially, of course he does; he is always defensive when an outsider criticizes his homeland, but he usually does have the wherewithal to admit when he's gone overboard as he does with one Cassandra banter. He's not blind to his own faults.

 

I think that's all we can ask of a character in that situation, really, especially since we can't have involved conversations about whatever issue.

[tanzensehen]

I do miss how your companions talked about their beliefs in DA2. You still couldn't have a deep conversation about it but you still got to see what they thought from different prospectives and how they changed their mind (if they did) during the game.

[Phoe77]

I could have sworn that I was able to disapprove of the Qun when I talked to Tallis, but I've only played MotA once so maybe I'm remembering things incorrectly.  

 

I don't find it strange either that Dorian doesn't question slavery either, since it was mentioned.  He may not be one to be cowed by the status quo, but it also doesn't seem to me like he goes out of his way to find causes to get behind.  I actually find that it makes him a more believable character.  

[Daerog]

The Qun opposes individuality. To argue from the point of an individual is already doomed to fail.

They have no names, just roles. An individual is loved like an arm, eye, or hand is loved. If the part goes bad, oh well, chop it off if it can't be treated, there are replacements.

IB may even point out that not even Saarebas want to be treated differently. The saarebas in DA2 commits suicide because of his dedication to the Qun even when he was "free." Maybe not IB, but a Qunari may think that individualism corrupts society, and so thinking that what happens to the saarebas is wrong because it opposes their rights/dignity as an individual is coming from a ill-formed conscience to begin with. It is heavily utilitarian with the focus on society as a whole, not individuals. Their society is really powerful because of this.

BW won't throw in every argument because of the limitation of games (and other reasons), but based on how IB grew up and how he has responded to other inquiries, one can give a good guess on how such an argument will go and not get hit with any disapproval in game.

[DreamerM]

I don't find it strange either that Dorian doesn't question slavery either, since it was mentioned.  He may not be one to be cowed by the status quo, but it also doesn't seem to me like he goes out of his way to find causes to get behind.  I actually find that it makes him a more believable character.  

 

Dorian doesn't really say he never questioned it, he just never thought about it, since it was so normal. He doesn't really let us in on what he has realized about slavery since coming south and seeing how different things are here, but he has some charming banter with Sera where he admits that this is the first time he's ever really been around elves who weren't slaves... but he's glad he has now. As Sera says, "people is people...who knew?"

There's a difference between ignorance and innocence. The Ignorant have a chance to learn and have refused it. The innocent just haven't had a chance to learn. Dorian may not have questioned slavery before, but he cannot unsee what he's seen in the South and there's no way those experiences aren't going to color how he thinks about these things in the future.

This is why I back Tevinter ahead of the Qunari. The "Vints" maintain enough individuality in their society for someone like Dorian to grow and learn and question the ideals he was raised with... without potentially becoming a violent psychopath. The Qun stomps out anyone who doesn't follow the letter of the law from the beginning, and reacts harshly to any hint of doubt. The Qun has already destroyed it's potential reformers. As a result, the Vints can potentally change. The Qun never will.

And as for Tallis, yeah, you couldn't question her about any part of her horrifying ideals or troubled past, but at least you could potentially kiss her, and that's the really important thing, right?

[Ieldra]

That's not the Saarabas benefiting though. That's everyone else. The Saarabas just exists as a weapon of war, chained up in the dark, making things blow up until they die.

Really, I don't know why all the children just don't kill themselves when they discover they have magic. Especially if they were all set to be something else.
 
I'm not talking about waging war on Par Vollen. I'm talking about someone, anyone, acknowledging how horrible this really is. At the moment, the only person who even pretended to really care about the Saarabas was the crooked priest in her Villain Eyeliner, and SHE was only using it to try and start a war.

And...godd0aaamn it, even VIVIANNE focuses on the wrong thing. "So you respect the blind deaf living magical-weapon-slaves your religion would make of every mage in the world, Bull? I will imply this makes me think of you as noble." NOT REALLY THE ISSUE, VIVIANNE. YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

I fully agree with this. There's a lot of avoiding the bad stuff and dodging the real issue in DAI's conversations, and I don't like it anywhere, but this is one of a bigger topics, along with using qamek on people who step out of line once too often. It's the same thing, really. If the Qun just exiled its misfits I'd be willing to consider possible benefits. If it killed its misfits I wouldn't like it but at least it would be a clean end. This - turning people into things and using them - is far worse, and that I'm unable to speak out against it is chafing.

[Fredward]

Seems a bit like yelling at the cashier cuz the tv you bought was broken to me.

[DreamerM]

Seems a bit like yelling at the cashier cuz the tv you bought was broken to me.

That's the internet, I guess.

[Phoe77]

Post

 

I don't disagree with you.  It is, in my opinion, far more likely that Dorian will change his views on slavery than it is that any given Qunari will change his views on Saarebas.  Not surprising at all really considering Tevinter doesn't have the same alien philosophy that the Qunari do.  Dorian still sees slaves as individuals and he still believes that individuals are deserving of some fundamental rights.  It might even be fair to say that the Qun will never change (though I hesitate to do so because I'm not a Sith), but even then that doesn't necessarily mean that Kossith society never will.  

 

I'd also like to point out that we don't have, to my knowledge, a good indication of just how closely the day to day reality of Qunari society matches up to the ideal version that we're presented with.  I have no doubt that their society is more draconian than anything in southern Thedas, but I doubt their philosophies can be applied perfectly any easier than the philosophies of any other society.