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[DreamerM]

Forgive the aside.
 

Actually, one of femmage warden's lines clearly indicates she's interested in Cullen and is propositioning him for sex. So yes, a female mage warden can indicate interest in Cullen

I don't think Cullen, especially fresh-faced, sheltered, naive, love-struck Templar Cullen, is a guy who would have the resources to defend himself from a truly determined romantic attack. I think if Amell DID want him... then the only way I can justify nothing happening is if she was the most awkward, most inept flirt of all time, because really, if you can't seal the deal with a 19-year-old who's hormones are tangible even through full plate armor... that is on YOU. Duty or no duty.

uh... Anyway. Back on topic.

[Daerog]

Female warden mage flirts with Cullen, Cullen blushes and retreats, PC gets wrapped up in Jowan situation, immediately recruited afterwards.

Cullen then has a complete breakdown after torture and reassigned elsewhere.

[DreamerM]

Female warden mage flirts with Cullen, Cullen blushes and retreats, PC gets wrapped up in Jowan situation, immediately recruited afterwards.

Cullen then has a complete breakdown after torture and reassigned elsewhere.

 

All understandable obstacles to a romantic interlude, true.

Personally though, I find it hard to believe Female Mage and Cullen just met and/or hit puberty right before the game began. Odds are good he and Amell have known each other for years... at the very least since he completed his training. Amell knew him and seemed friendly with him at least. And the guy could barely carry on a conversation with her without blushing right up to his ears. You don't need a Codex entry to tell you what that means.

I'm just saying. Give it a time and a place and two willing participants, and it's happening.  They wouldn't be the first such couple, I'm sure. Maybe if Amell was so inept that she comes on WAY TOO STRONG and keeps scaring him off, but seems like then he'd be more afraid of her and looking for reasons to avoid her, if that were the case. Not just hanging around for some nice casual post-Harrowing chit-chat.

Clearly I haven't thought one whit about this. Nope. Not me!

[mopotter]

I agree, I'd like more opportunities in Bioware games to express opinions, even if they clash with companions. This would obviously be good for roleplaying, but would also serve to give our characters more personality in general. I think it's important to see our characters as their own person rather than information sponges.

I'd also like this.  And if the result is the companion refuses to work with me, or even tries to kill me, (Zev was great for this) that's good, I like the idea that the possible companions also have a personality that I can't change.  Not all of them, I like changing minds sometimes, but not everyone I talk to.  

 

This was one of my problems with DA2.  I didn't like the rival route, Merrill was the easiest for me to rationalize it but I had to force myself with my mage and Fenris.  Didn't bother with Anders.  Mage understood rogue not so much.

[Daerog]

All understandable obstacles to a romantic interlude, true.

Personally though, I find it hard to believe Female Mage and Cullen just met and/or hit puberty right before the game began. Odds are good he and Amell have known each other for years... at the very least since he completed his training. Amell knew him and seemed friendly with him at least. And the guy could barely carry on a conversation with her without blushing right up to his ears. You don't need a Codex entry to tell you what that means.

I'm just saying. Give it a time and a place and two willing participants, and it's happening. They wouldn't be the first such couple, I'm sure. Maybe if Amell was so inept that she comes on WAY TOO STRONG and keeps scaring him off, but seems like then he'd be more afraid of her and looking for reasons to avoid her, if that were the case. Not just hanging around for some nice casual post-Harrowing chit-chat.

Clearly I haven't thought one whit about this. Nope. Not me!

Consequences of mage+templar coupling: Mage has to do extra cleaning duty and assist the most odd ball senior enchanter with current project. Templar gets disciplined, possibly fired, loss of livelihood, stuck with an addiction, or possibly reassigned to hunt very dangerous maleficarum.

Templars that hook up with mages are idiots, they put their livelihood if not their lives on the line. Mages are pretty much left alone, which is why Duncan and I think Zevran point out or find out how flirty mages can be in Towers.

I always found a mage flirting with Cullen to be cruel and wrong. It's not cute.

[DreamerM]

I'd also like this.  And if the result is the companion refuses to work with me, or even tries to kill me, (Zev was great for this) that's good, I like the idea that the possible companions also have a personality that I can't change.

On the other hand, sometimes that can turn your conversations into just telling each companion what they want to hear so you can keep them in your party. I remember feeling sort of like that in DA:O, I was prioritizing what the other person believed above examining what I actually thought about what was going on.

 

Back on the topic of Saarabas, the most glaring moment for me was when the Aarashok told Mage!Hawke that he would do well under the Qun. No, Mr. Ariskok, I don't think he would. Best case scenario: masked and blinded and leashed. Worst case scenario: brainless drudge laborer. There's no middle path for a magic user.

It just doesn't seem to occur to anybody. And I know I've said this before, but it bothers the hell out of me that the closest Iron Bull comes to addressing the Saarabas issue is when he says that if the Qun conquered Thedas, Solas wouldn't be able to do his fade-walking anymore, or Vivianne her political wheeling and dealing. Somehow I think that would be the least of their problems.

I don't know what happens if you wait to have this conversation until after Dorian is recruited.

[rapscallioness]

I'm pitter pattering through a Vashoth mage PT now.  I remember there was one option with Bull about "You're not very nice to your mages." --which is a huge understatement.  I can't remember what he said, though. I think it was pretty much a brush off. Nothing significant. And the Qun treats their mages is really disgusting. As a Vashoth I thought we were doing much better...until I talked to Vivienne, of all people.

 

So, we get to the point in that one conversation mages needing...oversight? And you have Tevinter/Chantry options, etc.  Although, she also mentioned something about the Dalish. Vivienne did--about how the mages could not turn to the Dalish because it was just too many for them to take them All under their wing. So where were mages supposed to go to be safe?

 

I see the Vashoth option in dialogue. I think oh, yeah..cool. Oh, Vivienne practically snarls at me saying that the Vashoth cut out the tongues of their mages and even outright kill the mages they think may be too weak to master their magic. I didn't know this. Vivienne ends it by saying...and snarling at me, that, "So you [Vashoth] are no better than all the rest."

 

I was surprised by this coming from Vivienne. The anger about how mages were treated by the Vashoth.

 

Then, "I've taken up enough of your time, darling. Don't let me keep you."

[nightscrawl]

It just doesn't seem to occur to anybody. And I know I've said this before, but it bothers the hell out of me that the closest Iron Bull comes to addressing the Saarabas issue is when he says that if the Qun conquered Thedas, Solas wouldn't be able to do his fade-walking anymore, or Vivianne her political wheeling and dealing. Somehow I think that would be the least of their problem.

I don't know what happens if you wait to have this conversation until after Dorian is recruited.

 

I try to space out investigate dialogues over the course of the game so I actually have something to talk to people about other than, [click] "Hey, boss," [leave] "See you later, Bull," "Nice talking with you, boss." Lol...

 

Bull has a line for many of the party members. As I recall, he is merely talking about how they would do under the Qun in regard to their personalities, not necessarily their mage or non-mage status. He says that Sera would probably end up mindlessly sweeping floors in some shop (we can assume a victim of qamek) and that Dorian is "too arrogant," but says that Cassandra and Cullen would probably do well because of their high level of discipline.

 

However, it's been forever since I played as a mage, so I don't recall if he has any different lines for a mage Inquisitor other than something specific during the Krem dialogue ("You can shoot fire out of your ass.")

[Lord of War]

Consequences of mage+templar coupling: Mage has to do extra cleaning duty and assist the most odd ball senior enchanter with current project. Templar gets disciplined, possibly fired, loss of livelihood, stuck with an addiction, or possibly reassigned to hunt very dangerous maleficarum.

Templars that hook up with mages are idiots, they put their livelihood if not their lives on the line. Mages are pretty much left alone, which is why Duncan and I think Zevran point out or find out how flirty mages can be in Towers.

I always found a mage flirting with Cullen to be cruel and wrong. It's not cute.

 

Less scrupulous Templars could always accuse their ex-lovers of being abominations or blood mages and kill them on the spot too, maybe even order their tranquilization. Either way, Mage/Templar relationships are bad and creepy. 

[DreamerM]

Then, "I've taken up enough of your time, darling. Don't let me keep you."

In a perfect world, you could have then gone to Bull to have this confirmed, and say something to the effect of, "Why did I have to learn this from VIVIANNE? Where you deliberately hiding it from me or just hoping it wouldn't come up? What else don't I know?"

[vertigomez]

In a perfect world, you could have then gone to Bull to have this confirmed, and say something to the effect of, "Why did I have to learn this from VIVIANNE? Where you deliberately hiding it from me or just hoping it wouldn't come up? What else don't I know?"

But she's talking about Tal-Vashoth in that scenario. Adaar is Vashoth, born to Tal-Vashoth parents, and has spent their life around a bunch of Tal-Vashoth mercs, so I don't really see why Bull should be telling your character something they would already know..?

However nobody in your company, including Shokrakar, seems to care that you're a mage so I'm willing to bet Viv's just going on rumor. What does she know about Tal-Vashoth? >______>

[Ghost Gal]

I should be more passionate about Bull's loyalty to the Qun despite its treatment of Saarebas, but the truth it I already have a long laundry list of complaints against Bull, the Chantry, the Circles, the Templars, lack of meaningful responses to lots of things many of my previous characters had complaints against, etc. to really care by the time it got to the question of a mage Inquisitor befriending or romancing him or not.

 

If it really bothers you that much, write a fanfic where your mage character lets him have it for his views. Or just don't recruit/befriend/romance him.

 

I see the Vashoth option in dialogue. I think oh, yeah..cool. Oh, Vivienne practically snarls at me saying that the Vashoth cut out the tongues of their mages and even outright kill the mages they think may be too weak to master their magic. I didn't know this. Vivienne ends it by saying...and snarling at me, that, "So you [Vashoth] are no better than all the rest."

 

I was surprised by this coming from Vivienne. The anger about how mages were treated by the Vashoth.

 

Then, "I've taken up enough of your time, darling. Don't let me keep you."

 

This is another instance of the game not being friendly to newcomers, or not explaining its lore very well.

 

Codex entries to previous games have revealed that Tal'Vashoth don't really know how to form communities since they were told how to live by the Qun for so long. As such, they don't really know how to train or deal with their mages. Also, despite outwardly breaking away from the Qun, they're still subconsciously swayed by it. One of the ways this manifests is how they view mages. Despite breaking away from the Qun, many still have that deeply ingrained prejudice and distrust against mages, so many Tal'Vashoth will cut off the tongues of or kill mages they don't trust, just like they did in the Qun.

 

I think that's what she was referring to, but if one isn't a complete lore nut and hunted down every piece of ambient dialogue, party banter, or codexes from previous games, one wouldn't know what she was saying. I knew what she was talking about, but that's because I'm obsessed and read every scrap of lore I can get my hands on.

 

The Vashoth situation is not helped by how we've never actually encountered vashoth before, so we have no idea what their lives are like. We've seen humans, Circle mages, Dalish, dwarves, etc. live their daily lives each game, but we've only seen stranded Qunari (Sten and the Arishok) or Tal'Vashoth canon fodder (DA2), so it's hard imagining how a grey giant would live their daily lives in their own communities.

 

Less scrupulous Templars could always accuse their ex-lovers of being abominations or blood mages and kill them on the spot too, maybe even order their tranquilization. Either way, Mage/Templar relationships are bad and creepy. 

 

Paraphrasing Red from Orange is the New Black, "there's no such thing as consensual [with a guard] in a prison." Mages are prisoners and Templars are their jailers. That, itself, involves a significant power-imbalance that cannot be ignored. The Templars have all the power and the mages have no power. Now, that doesn't mean the Templars will abuse their power, but the power still there, and it changes things.

 

I agree with you that I cannot imagine Cullen with a mage (especially an elven mage, who are double-hit by the Chantry's demonization and opression of both elves and mages) without it feeling icky or unballanced to me. Despite all the atrocities Meredith committed he still believes in the Circles and the Templars. He still believes mages should be locked up and monitored by Templars. I can't romance him as a mage (especially Dalish mage) who values their own freedom because you're with a man who fundamentally believes that you alone should have your rights and freedoms stripped away, because you're a mage and he's not.

 

Bull isn't any better, but then I don't want to romance him at all, let alone as a mage. (Totally admit to personal feelings here.) But it's kind of different for me because if you can convince Bull to turn Tal'Vashoth. You can probably headcanon that he eventually gets over his blind loyalty to the Qun enough to recognize that how they treat Saarebas is wreched (same with their lobotomy gas and whatnot) and there are other ways to teach mages that doesn't require mouth stitches or control rods. 

 

I guess Cullen kind of bothers me more because you can never really change his mind. He never really stops thinking the Chantry, Templars, and Circles are the best way to deal with mages. I mean, sure, he's become open-minded enough since DAO and DA2 that he doesn't object too strongly to you allying with mages, but he'd still prefer the Templars and Circles and you can never really call him out or change his mind on it.

[DreamerM]

If it really bothers you that much, write a fanfic where your mage character lets him have it for his views. Or just don't recruit/befriend/romance him.

In case you missed it a few pages back, I admitted to trying that. I gave up when all I could come up with was petulant shouting that didn't sound good coming from anybody, and started this thread instead.

 

Paraphrasing Red from Orange is the New Black, "there's no such thing as consensual [with a guard] in a prison." ....

I agree with you that I cannot imagine Cullen with a mage (especially an elven mage, who are double-hit by the Chantry's demonization and opression of both elves and mages) without it feeling icky or unballanced to me.

 

This is why I kind of wince when players happily declare"Oh Yeah, my Amell was trying REALLY HARD to get with Cullen, she'd chase him down the halls, tee hee." If that were really the case, then your Amell was an idiot with an overactive libido and no basic survival insticts and Cullen was 100% right to fight her as hard as he could. If he were someone other then who he was, Amell would have been opening herself up to some pretty horrific abuse, and frankly, HE deserves better.
 

 

You can probably headcanon that he eventually gets over his blind loyalty to the Qun enough to recognize that how they treat Saarebas is wreched (same with their lobotomy gas and whatnot) and there are other ways to teach mages that doesn't require mouth stitches or control rods. 

 

The thing that gets me is, even before the Tal-Vashoth thing, Iron Bull KNOWS that the way they treat mages is wretched. He calls their plight sad, and tells Vivianne they are "worthy of respect." That... seems to be the catch-all reaction among the Qunari whenever someone questions the Saarabas. Their plight is sad, they sacrifice greatly for the Qun, they are worthy of respect. It's how they justify the stuff with the chains and the leashes and the mandatory suicide if ever separated from their handlers. They balance it out with "respect." And the Saarabas are just as involved in this as everyone else is.

The whole thing makes me sick.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Baconer]

The thing that gets me is, even before the Tal-Vashoth thing, Iron Bull KNOWS that the way they treat mages is wretched. He calls their plight sad, and tells Vivianne they are "worthy of respect." That... seems to be the catch-all reaction among the Qunari whenever someone questions the Saarabas. Their plight is sad, they sacrifice greatly for the Qun, they are worthy of respect. It's how they justify the stuff with the chains and the leashes and the mandatory suicide if ever separated from their handlers. They balance it out with "respect." And the Saarabas are just as involved in this as everyone else is.

The whole thing makes me sick.

 

It's respect in the same manner one respects the strength of an ox pulling a cart. 

[Ghost Gal]

This is why I kind of wince when players happily declare"Oh Yeah, my Amell was trying REALLY HARD to get with Cullen, she'd chase him down the halls, tee hee." If that were really the case, then your Amell was an idiot with an overactive libido and no basic survival insticts and Cullen was 100% right to fight her as hard as he could. If he were someone other then who he was, Amell would have been opening herself up to some pretty horrific abuse, and frankly, HE deserves better.

 

Wait, by coming onto Cullen she's opening herself up for abuse, so HE deserves better? What the I don't even...

 

Also, Amell is not the ONLY Mage Warden. Heaven's sake, I'm getting tired of this...

 

 

The thing that gets me is, even before the Tal-Vashoth thing, Iron Bull KNOWS that the way they treat mages is wretched. He calls their plight sad, and tells Vivianne they are "worthy of respect." That... seems to be the catch-all reaction among the Qunari whenever someone questions the Saarabas. Their plight is sad, they sacrifice greatly for the Qun, they are worthy of respect. It's how they justify the stuff with the chains and the leashes and the mandatory suicide if ever separated from their handlers. They balance it out with "respect." And the Saarabas are just as involved in this as everyone else is.

The whole thing makes me sick.

 

You've probably heard this before, but I'm going to say it again: The Qunari have different cultural values from us and Andrastian human culture.

 

They value respect, selflessness, self-mastery, self-sacrifice, putting needs of community over needs of individual, etc. more than we do. They are taught that the ultimate goal that every citizen should strive for is complete self-mastery and self-sacrifice for the good of the community. I know they aren't values that you agree with, but you weren't raised with them.

 

In fact, I'm going to quote the DA2 Saarebas Codex to elaborate:

 

The Qun teaches that all living things have a place and a purpose, and only when they are in the correct place and in control of their self may a being attain balance. When balance is lost, suffering follows. Mastery of the self is, therefore, the first and greatest duty.

 

Those born with magic are at a terrible disadvantage, for demons can always rob them of their self. Because of this, the Qunari name them saarebas, meaning "dangerous thing," and treat them with the utmost caution. Saarebas must be carefully controlled by someone else, an arvaarad, "one who holds back evil," because they cannot truly control themselves. The evil is not the mage, but the loss of the mage, the loss of the mage's self, and the suffering that inevitably follows.

 

The Qunari pity and honor the saarebas, for striving while under constant threat from within is truly selfless, which is the highest virtue of the Qun."

 

Our culture values individual freedom and comfort, so to us the restrictions imposed on the saarebas is heinous and inexcusable. To the Qunari, selflessness and sacrificing the needs of the self for the needs of the community is more important, so to them the restrictions imposed on the saarebas is less heinous and the advantages of protecting the community and allowing the disadvantaged saarebas of embodying the cultural ideal of selflessness is more admirable. To you, trying to balance "it's sad" with "but I respect them" is not good enough because "respect" doesn't out-weigh "sad," but to them respect is so important that it does balance it out.

 

Now, I'm not defending how the Qunari treat mages - I think it's heinous too - but I also get that being raised with different values and different standards for the community can lead them to overlook it in a way that we don't because we have different values and standards. The demand for complete self-mastery by any means necessary for every citizen is what leads the Qunari to take such extreme measures to control the saarebas, whereas our demand for personal freedom leads us to see the treatment of saarebas as inexcusable since it tramples on values we hold dear. If you're going to be mad at how they treat saarebas, don't just focus on the shallow, surface-level "they treat them badly" aspect, look deeper at the values that lead them to think that is okay, even necessary.

[DreamerM]

Wait, by coming onto Cullen she's opening herself up for abuse, so HE deserves better? What the I don't even...

 

No no no no no! Sorry, I framed that wrong. Let me put it this way:

MageWarden has spent her life in a tower surrounded by heavily armed men who could kill her at any moment. By flippantly throwing herself at one of these men, damn the consequences, she is not only putting herself in huge danger, she is putting that man in a compromised position. I'm sure successful Mage/Templar trysts happen, heck I bet they are not even rare, but they require delicacy and discretion, and Cullen doesn't have the tact to hide how interested he is. Everyone knows. If FemMage seals the deal, everyone will know THAT too. Gregior and Irving might turn a blind eye, I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time, but...  they also might not.

Yes, I know, risking it all for love is very passionate and romantic, but... really, how dumb is Mage!Warden if she doesn't know .. or worse, doesn't CARE... how much danger this puts them both in?

That's why I say he deserves better. Someone who at least has the tact to not proposition him in broad daylight right down the hall from his boss's office. That's what I meant.

 

If you're going to be mad at how they treat saarebas, don't just focus on the shallow, surface-level "they treat them badly" aspect, look deeper at the values that lead them to think that is okay, even necessary.

 

 

Oh I'm well aware of those values. Why do you think I couldn't come up with a decent fanfic about it? This is sick on a bone-deep level and the person who figures out how to crack it will be a smarter person then I am.

My frustration here comes from being unable to really express this horror in any real way. Nor does anyone else in the world seem to find it quite as appalling as I do. Even Vivianne, for all her knowledge, seems to see something noble in their attitude, if not their actions.

This is the frustrating thing about evil. People think Evil is all grrr, arrrg, darkspawn want to eat you, muahahaha.... but the positive emotions are just as important when it comes to making great evil happen. And an evil who knows how to manipulate the positive, as well as the negative, is dangerous on a whole other level.

[BansheeOwnage]

It irritates me how any criticisms are usually just deflected with the character saying, "in your culture, blah, blah". For one, and maybe most glaringly, it seems to usually largely only apply if you're playing a human character, the only ones with any real power to make the "rules". Nagging an oppressed minority for being oppressed in their homeland, as if that's as bad as being part of an oppressive majority somewhere else and still towing the party line, is pretty absurd. They're not really responses tailored for other races. The alienages and similar issues characters bring up don't really apply to someone playing a Dalish elf or Tal-Vashoth character. I wouldn't honestly say that's "their culture" at work.

 

But, secondly, what if you hate those aspects of your own culture and would do anything to change them? What if you spend the whole game fighting them? It seems like a massive brush off. It doesn't answer how the character actually feels, not really. I want to ask them if they're actually willing to fight to change these things, or if they just think, "oh well, everyone has problems, no sense worrying about it". The brush off just seems like a cheap dodge and you never get a chance to respond with any real opinions on the issues they bring up. Basically, I think these sensitive issues could probably be handled better, but I guess it's just an issue of limitations and not having time or resources to flesh out multiple paths of arguments for various beliefs. I still wish they could at least be clear on whether or not they think these things are worth fighting against, rather than just defending them as "no worse" than (maybe not even really) your character's cultural flaws.

 

I always play a character that pushed for social reforms and supports those that face undue oppression wherever I can. What I really want to know isn't if they think there are equitable flaws in the Andrastrian majority countries we've visited so far. I know there are major problems there and my choices in game should speak for my belief that those things should be actively fought against at every opportunity. What I want to know from my companions or other NPCs is whether they feel the same about flaws in their own cultures. Do they believe those things are worth fighting against, or do they just accept it? And, if they just accept it, that's what I want to challenge. My problem with it is that it always feels like the game assumes the only reason you'd needle a non-Andrastrian about the flaws in their culture is if you're trying to leverage some moral superiority for Andrastrianism. For the type of characters I play, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I feel like these responses miss the point for my intentions, which makes them ultimately really unsatisfying. 

I was thinking the exact same thing. This is especially bad with Bull, and downplayed with Dorian. So some things in "my culture" are bad? Yeah, maybe I agree and try to change them when I can! And this is also a moment where Sera is right in that just because you're a certain race or born a certain place, doesn't mean that race/place's culture is yours. Hence Tal-Vasoth, as an example. Them complaining about something "in your culture" is meaningless unless you actually defend that thing, and it's still a massive deflection of the issue either way.

 

Less scrupulous Templars could always accuse their ex-lovers of being abominations or blood mages and kill them on the spot too, maybe even order their tranquilization. Either way, Mage/Templar relationships are bad and creepy. 

That would hardly apply to Inquisition!Cullen, though, even if it was true.

 

My frustration here comes from being unable to really express this horror in any real way. Nor does anyone else in the world seem to find it quite as appalling as I do. Even Vivianne, for all her knowledge, seems to see something noble in their attitude, if not their actions.

I think it's very appalling, too. I hate the Qun, and I don't say that lightly. It would have been great if we could call Bull/The Qun out on this, but honestly, I think it might have just ended with Bull getting the last word in a very forced way, like what happens with Vivenne.

 

Edit: Post #11111, ha

[nightscrawl]

There is also the example of the mage/templar couple with that one quest in Hinterlands. The mage first states that they were friends for many years before they became lovers and were "together" for many years after that, and neither of them wanted any part in the whole mess. Also, Wynne's coupling with a templar that produced Rhys is also not described in terms of abuse or anything along those lines, more like an inadvisable youthful dalliance (as the dumb, horny youths will do).

 

It's important to remember that not all Circles are the same, not all templars are the same, and not all mages are the same.

[Gervaise]

The sad thing about the Wynne story is that for the Templar involved it was anything but an inadvisable youthful dalliance.   The letter given in WoT2 shows that the Templar was distraught not to have been told of the pregnancy by Wynne and I think his declaration that he would have given up the Order for her and their son was genuine.   Given the way Wynne speaks of it in Asunder, it sounds to me as though the Templar involved was seduced by her rather than the other way around and she chose to sacrifice the relationship and her son for the security of the Circle over an uncertain future outside it.     

 

So I think it is worth remembering that whilst there are Templars who abused mages and tranquil, not all Templars were like that, nor were they always the instigators in any sexual encounters that occurred.

[BansheeOwnage]

There is also the example of the mage/templar couple with that one quest in Hinterlands. The mage first states that they were friends for many years before they became lovers and were "together" for many years after that, and neither of them wanted any part in the whole mess. Also, Wynne's coupling with a templar that produced Rhys is also not described in terms of abuse or anything along those lines, more like an inadvisable youthful dalliance (as the dumb, horny youths will do).

 

It's important to remember that not all Circles are the same, not all templars are the same, and not all mages are the same.

Yeah, definitely. It really depends on the people in question, and the attitude of the Circle they're in. As a Mage!Trevelyan, you can admit that you had a crush on a Templar in your Circle as well, although if you do, you also say that it didn't lead anywhere, for vague reasons as far as I remember. I thought doing that with my Cullenmancer was fairly fitting

[SwobyJ]

I was thinking the exact same thing. This is especially bad with Bull, and downplayed with Dorian. So some things in "my culture" are bad? Yeah, maybe I agree and try to change them when I can! And this is also a moment where Sera is right in that just because you're a certain race or born a certain place, doesn't mean that race/place's culture is yours. Hence Tal-Vasoth, as an example. Them complaining about something "in your culture" is meaningless unless you actually defend that thing, and it's still a massive deflection of the issue either way.

 

That would hardly apply to Inquisition!Cullen, though, even if it was true.

 

I think it's very appalling, too. I hate the Qun, and I don't say that lightly. It would have been great if we could call Bull/The Qun out on this, but honestly, I think it might have just ended with Bull getting the last word in a very forced way, like what happens with Vivenne.

 

Edit: Post #11111, ha

 

I think a very refreshing take on the Qun in a DA4 would be a party member/major character that does disagree with the supposed consensus of present Qunari society, outright - even if their approach about it is still very Qunari (but hopefully would be arguably very effective if it plays out), and they still immensely value the writings of Koslun.

 

Some of us then can be torn between letting this process play out (or encouraging it), or sticking more to a violent/reactionary total anti-Qunari sentiment.

 

Part of cultural relativism, when not actually used by the lazy as an excuse for what another culture does, is simply an educational appeal to *understand* a culture more, often in order for changes to effectively occur within them, or at least for those not in the culture to better respond to the culture. That just bashing against cultures alone, often just has them regroup in resistance and aggression to the outside. Understanding and educating oneself the Qun more than otherwise, does not necessarily mean being indoctrinated into it. Many of an in-group do not actually understand the matters of their in-group as much as they'd assume. But they are in-group nonetheless and this should be a respected truth of the situation, not disregarded and the person/group delegitimized. Reform cannot happen without questioning, and questioning cannot happen without defenses lowered, and defenses lowered cannot happen without concessions. For Qunari, that can mean keeping a lot of their society the same in shorter term, while potentially losing a lot of how they presently treat mages. It is unlikely that Bioware will let us utterly annihilate the Qunari - partially because that is rarely practical, and partially because that tends to be something villainous unless the enemy is overtly a direct and immediate existential danger. And Bioware doesn't seem to want to allow us to be the outright villain for a while now.

 

I'm sure we haven't gotten that deep into the Qunari leadership and structure for a reason. They have a different way around the world, but it will not be made utterly alien in all ways, not incapable of any change. Hell, there's plenty of Qunari lore already (just not in overt cutscenes) that they must be the change to the world based on Koslun's philosophy. There's plenty of realistic holes in that for change to occur. New interpretations when engaging the world, openness to a different take on Koslun's life and writings. But right now? Yes, sure, stagnant. Technically, the approach that the particular Qunari group in Trespasser took was probably unorthodox but creative within their framework. We may see more unorthodox approaches from others that are this time not directed towards destroying the leadership of the South, ha, but towards a reform of Qunari society that respects the concepts of tradition and fundamentals, but in co-operation and unity with the rest of Thedas.

 

Or we can blow them all up with magic. Cool.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I should be more passionate about Bull's loyalty to the Qun despite its treatment of Saarebas, but the truth it I already have a long laundry list of complaints against Bull, the Chantry, the Circles, the Templars, lack of meaningful responses to lots of things many of my previous characters had complaints against, etc. to really care by the time it got to the question of a mage Inquisitor befriending or romancing him or not.

 

If it really bothers you that much, write a fanfic where your mage character lets him have it for his views. Or just don't recruit/befriend/romance him.

 

 

This is another instance of the game not being friendly to newcomers, or not explaining its lore very well.

 

Codex entries to previous games have revealed that Tal'Vashoth don't really know how to form communities since they were told how to live by the Qun for so long. As such, they don't really know how to train or deal with their mages. Also, despite outwardly breaking away from the Qun, they're still subconsciously swayed by it. One of the ways this manifests is how they view mages. Despite breaking away from the Qun, many still have that deeply ingrained prejudice and distrust against mages, so many Tal'Vashoth will cut off the tongues of or kill mages they don't trust, just like they did in the Qun.

 

I think that's what she was referring to, but if one isn't a complete lore nut and hunted down every piece of ambient dialogue, party banter, or codexes from previous games, one wouldn't know what she was saying. I knew what she was talking about, but that's because I'm obsessed and read every scrap of lore I can get my hands on.

 

The Vashoth situation is not helped by how we've never actually encountered vashoth before, so we have no idea what their lives are like. We've seen humans, Circle mages, Dalish, dwarves, etc. live their daily lives each game, but we've only seen stranded Qunari (Sten and the Arishok) or Tal'Vashoth canon fodder (DA2), so it's hard imagining how a grey giant would live their daily lives in their own communities.

 

 

Paraphrasing Red from Orange is the New Black, "there's no such thing as consensual [with a guard] in a prison." Mages are prisoners and Templars are their jailers. That, itself, involves a significant power-imbalance that cannot be ignored. The Templars have all the power and the mages have no power. Now, that doesn't mean the Templars will abuse their power, but the power still there, and it changes things.

 

I agree with you that I cannot imagine Cullen with a mage (especially an elven mage, who are double-hit by the Chantry's demonization and opression of both elves and mages) without it feeling icky or unballanced to me. Despite all the atrocities Meredith committed he still believes in the Circles and the Templars. He still believes mages should be locked up and monitored by Templars. I can't romance him as a mage (especially Dalish mage) who values their own freedom because you're with a man who fundamentally believes that you alone should have your rights and freedoms stripped away, because you're a mage and he's not.

 

Bull isn't any better, but then I don't want to romance him at all, let alone as a mage. (Totally admit to personal feelings here.) But it's kind of different for me because if you can convince Bull to turn Tal'Vashoth. You can probably headcanon that he eventually gets over his blind loyalty to the Qun enough to recognize that how they treat Saarebas is wreched (same with their lobotomy gas and whatnot) and there are other ways to teach mages that doesn't require mouth stitches or control rods. 

 

I guess Cullen kind of bothers me more because you can never really change his mind. He never really stops thinking the Chantry, Templars, and Circles are the best way to deal with mages. I mean, sure, he's become open-minded enough since DAO and DA2 that he doesn't object too strongly to you allying with mages, but he'd still prefer the Templars and Circles and you can never really call him out or change his mind on it.

 

Personally, I don't want to change his mind on it. Not completely. I like when characters stand their ground and believe in something, regardless of if I agree or not. The PC shouldn't be able to turn everyone in their entourage to their viewpoints. That just makes the entire NPC ensemble into weak-willed toys rather than characters. And I do believe that someone with Cullen's experience, who saw a Circle go down the toilet and witnessed all the ugliness around Kirkwall, really shouldn't be able to be swayed from his (at the end of the day, fairly soft in DAI) pro-Templar viewpoint.

 

Albeit I do agree with the premise of the thread that we should be able to challenge NPCs more on their views sometimes. But that doesn't mean being able to change them, at least not all the time.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Less scrupulous Templars could always accuse their ex-lovers of being abominations or blood mages and kill them on the spot too, maybe even order their tranquilization. Either way, Mage/Templar relationships are bad and creepy. 

 

Which is why Cullen had to be an ex Templar before he was available for romance and which is why Alistair was not a full Templar to begin with.

 

I think that Bioware devs, for all their flaws, understand that a mage in a romantic relationship with a Templar (not a crush, but full blown romance) is creepy and disastrous.

 

It is why they probably made the prologue questline for the Circle Mage Warden that specific way to begin with. At its core, the prologue for the Circle Mage is about magic and its dangers but it is also about the reality that a Circle mage in a relationship with a member of the Chantry that is still serving the Chantry is a bad idea. It is why we had the Jowan - Lilly romance issue as part of that questline.

 

If you notice both in DAO and DAI, both Cassandra and Leliana sort of leave the Chantry's service through most of the portion of the games and later when they rejoin the Chantry, they either get separated from their loved ones or they break it off, with the only exception when Leliana becomes Divine. Even Sebastian enters into a chaste relationship with female Hawke.

 

Point is, romancing someone who is part of the Chantry and still in active duty / active service to the Chantry, especially if you are a mage, is a bad idea. Unless if it is Leliana because she changes the rules just for your Warden. Now that's true love - Changing the laws of an entire organization just to be with you.

[DreamerM]

I think that Bioware devs, for all their flaws, understand that a mage in a romantic relationship with a Templar (not a crush, but full blown romance) is creepy and disastrous.

 

 

Which is another thing that makes me wonder why they retconed the Templars away from mandatory vows of chastity. Those vows seem very logical, considering the lives Templar are supposed to lead. Even Cullen confesses he never took any vows of chastity, even though having taken them would help draw an even starker line in the sand between Templar and Ex-Templar and lead to some interesting options for a romance.

Instead, it's now the priests who take vows of chastity, even though the only non-chaste priest who has ever caused us trouble was Lily, and she was just a chantry sister.

I'm just saying. I don't understand why they changed this. What did they gain? The other way was so much more dramatic.

None of this has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

[DreamerM]

Albeit I do agree with the premise of the thread that we should be able to challenge NPCs more on their views sometimes. But that doesn't mean being able to change them, at least not all the time.

 

For me the problem is the issue of Saarabas has been an issue for two games, and I have yet to really be able to challenge any of it in any meaningful way... at least to someone who wasn't just pretending to care in an attempt to start something.

If I'm really upset about how Mages are abused by Templars, or how the Tevinter just love enslaving people, I can do something about it. I can support mage freedom, I can kill every slaver I see, that kind of thing. I have had no way to express how the Saarabas thing makes me feel. I can't tell anyone about it, I can't do anything about it. It bothers me.