I can't tell if you're really confused or not, but vbibbi was making a joke. David Gaider's personality, or at least that he shows online, does rather resemble Dorian + Morrigan.
Plus the fact that he wrote these two sassmasters, along with Alistair.
I can't tell if you're really confused or not, but vbibbi was making a joke. David Gaider's personality, or at least that he shows online, does rather resemble Dorian + Morrigan.
Plus the fact that he wrote these two sassmasters, along with Alistair.
I'd made my comments in this thread using memory and judging everyone's impressions of her. Then I just watched this scene in my play through and paid close attention for any lingering hints of pining.
All of their comments seem more like echoes of past hurts, not current ones; the pain of their break up is not keeping them up at night. They just seem like exs that stayed friends; intermittently close ones. He's disappointed in his friend for not keeping one of the few secrets he's given her. I still think he may romanticize the tragedy of their not being together- when he thinks about it at all. It's just a lens he looks through when he does think about the past. And considering how much he adores Hawke, no matter how questionably righteous Hawke may have been, I just feel like his quick "Let bygones be bygones" with Bianca is not based on their past love but instead on the fact that Varric is pretty morally gray himself, and looks for the best qualities in other people. Hence when the Quiz asks if he'll ever see her again, " I always do" he replies. He's forgiving of some pretty bad qualities in Hawke, Bianca, and honestly, even the Quiz.
His banter about her being better than Varric at archery seems more like a healthy rivalry of skill between friends.
Her comment that she's better than Branka is true; all Branka did in my DA Keep world is make a smokeless coal, go mad, and kill her entire Clan house in screwed up experiments. Bianca has made at least three separate inventions of awesome. I think in the world states that Branka is alive, she's being evil making dwarves into Golems. Bianca is a far more positive force than that any day.
Bianca threatening the Quiz lacks so little heat, and it comes after several comments about Varric's welfare in battle, that my Quiz raised her brow at her, but was pretty "whatever" about it.
I find it a tad annoying that the Quiz can passionately state that Bianca should be held accountable; and then absolutely nothing follows up on that dialogue option. I guess my Quiz's threat was just as empty as Bianca's.
I do kinda feel like Bianca was used to tie up Varric's narrative loose end, while introducing new information: A. Larius was possessed by Cory. B. Red Lyrium is regular lyrium with the blight. And since she accomplished all three of these goals, she is no longer useful. Very likely never to be seen again.
^ Unless Varric has his girlfriend whip up some techy prosthetic for his Inquisitor friend who now has an estate in Kirkwall...
(I'm not a fan of this idea, but I've seen it thrown around in addition to the Dagna-made prosthetic idea.)
He's forgiving of some pretty bad qualities in Hawke, Bianca, and honestly, even the Quiz.
To be fair, all companions (and especially advisors) will forgive almost any singular thing. They don't tend to have serious problems with you unless you do quite a few things they hate 
To be fair, all companions (and especially advisors) will forgive almost any singular thing. They don't tend to have serious problems with you unless you do quite a few things they hate
Well. The first time I did this scene with my human mage romancing Cullen, iirc. I was nice to her for Varric's sake. Whatever. She came off as spoiled, really. Trying to kind of pout her way out of accountability, but whatever. Then when we get to the eyeball gouging part, it was so random and out of the blue, as a player I felt like something had been edited out. That's happened a few times with other characters and situations.
Then I played the scene with my Lady Cadash dwarf Quizzy who (in my head canon) was in a burgeoning romance with Varric (Quiet, you ). Anyway, the whole interaction flowed so much better from beginning to end. Bianca's dialogue took on a different kind of feel with that head canon in place.
So, by the time we got to the eye gouging, it was clear to me/Cadash that B. was jelly, Man. She was so jelly because she could tell there was this thing happening between Inquisitor Cadash and Varric.
Lol!, but yeah. It really supported my head canon well.
Personally I feel like the hate for Bianca is just as overblown and unwarranted like with Fiona. I found her banter with Varric kinda funny and her last statement towards the Inquisitor always felt like a "she really does care about him" moment than an actual threat. I do feel as though they tried too hard to get the audience to like her, but other than that, I was fine with her character.
^ Unless Varric has his girlfriend whip up some techy prosthetic for his Inquisitor friend who now has an estate in Kirkwall...
(I'm not a fan of this idea, but I've seen it thrown around in addition to the Dagna-made prosthetic idea.)
I really hope this doesn't happen. I think it's much more likely that if the Inquisitor receives a prosthetic it's from Dagna, since she's the official artificer of the Inquisition. Bianca has no reason to, especially as Varric is not associated with the Inquisition as of Trespasser. I will hope that Bioware recognizes that regardless of their intent, Bianca was not well received and will not try to force her into further plots.
Personally I feel like the hate for Bianca is just as overblown and unwarranted like with Fiona. I found her banter with Varric kinda funny and her last statement towards the Inquisitor always felt like a "she really does care about him" moment than an actual threat. I do feel as though they tried too hard to get the audience to like her, but other than that, I was fine with her character.
Random, but why is your post count so low? Did you switch accounts or something?
Personally, if I could've picked my response to Bianca's threat, I would've quoted Morpheus from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman:
"It has ever been the perogative of children and fools to point out when the Emperor has no clothes. Yet the Emperor remains Emperor, and the fool is still a fool."
Random, but why is your post count so low? Did you switch accounts or something?
I made a new account in order to link it to my Origins account since that had all the games I played. I couldn't post in the Feedback & Suggestions board with my old account because of that.
I made a new account in order to link it to my Origins account since that had all the games I played. I couldn't post in the Feedback & Suggestions board with my old account because of that.
On the topic of Bianca being a Mary Sue; compared to who, exactly? She's a brilliant inventor and she's good with a bow*, Morrigan is a magical wunderkind, Leliana is an amazingly adept spymaster/spy/assassin/Divine, Zevran's been waging a one man war against the Crows cuz he's just that good, Isabela can manage to steal the tome of Koslun twice etc. Hell, Varric's readership spans the entirety of Thedas, he's a (reluctant) successful businessman, good/excellent archer, dabbles in being a spymaster and now rules Kirkwall. Honestly.
* - she needed to be competent in combat unless she was just gonna tag along and stand in the back and hope no one hurts her and that would've resulted in accusations of her being a damsel in distress. Varric saying she's better than him with a bow sounded indulgent to me but let's say it's not, he uses an automatic crossbow, he doesn't really need to be Robin Hood.
On the topic of Bianca being a Mary Sue; compared to who, exactly?
As far as I can tell, Bianca isn't a Mary Sue compared to anyone in the game because there aren't any others from what I've seen. A Mary Sue is a character who can do basically anything and get away with it, and everyone loves her. People dislike Bianca because it feels like BioWare expected us all to love her by giving her all these skills and witty remarks and trying to make her an independent dwarf who don't need no Inquisitor, but she also caused a lot of deaths. I mean, a LOT of deaths. Also thanks to her, red lyrium is now pretty much everywhere because of her mistake, and it screws up a lot of things. Despite all that, it seems like everyone gets over it quickly, and she's portrayed as being the greatest thing ever, even though in a realistic setting yelling at her would have been perfectly within the Inquisitor's rights. In fact, given that we can judge all sorts of people as Inquisitor for lesser things than what she did, she could have conceivably been tried for assisting Corypheus and the corruption of the Red Templars/Mages and the proliferation of the red lyrium. And yet the game sweeps all her wrongdoing under the rug, like it expects us to go "No big deal." That's how she's a Mary Sue.
Morrigan is a magical wunderkind.
Morrigan is also about as sociable as a cactus. If she were unsociable and super skilled but adored by everyone, then she would be a Mary Sue. But because her ability is tempered by her prickly personality and questionable actions, she is not a Mary Sue.
Leliana is an amazingly adept spymaster/spy/assassin/Divine
But she also is fallible as a human. She is shown to have several crisis of conscious and faith as a result of her actions and the deaths of those around her. She questions and doubts, both of which show that despite her great skill, she is as damaged as the best of them. Her struggles to maintain her faith and humanity keep her from being a Mary Sue, because she is not portrayed as infallible or impervious to the struggles of living as a spy.
Zevran's been waging a one man war against the Crows cuz he's just that good
But he was also taught by the people that he's fighting against. At the height of his career with the Crows, he was one of their top agents along with Rinna and Taliesen. He knows all their tricks, their habits, their methods, their locations, everything that a person would need to take them down from the inside. And he's not just fighting them on his home turf, they've chased him from Denerim to Kirkwall, and he spent a lot of time basically running and killing the ones coming after him. He has killed one guild master, and therefore one branch of the Crows, but there are others out there as well. By the end of it, they basically leave him alone. He doesn't (and probably couldn't) kill them all.
And besides that, he's also not a Mary Sue because he's made severe mistakes, such as letting his first love get killed in front of his eyes on false charges, and after realizing this he became suicidal. His attempt to kill the Wardens was a suicide run, and he expected to die (which he says in his companion conversations). Not everyone loves him or even likes him, and despite his charming personality, he's still a murderer. You don't have to like him. Hell, you can even kill him if you like. So he is not a Mary Sue because he has also failed and doesn't expect everyone to love him even though he flirts with everyone.
Isabela can manage to steal the tome of Koslun twice
Although she managed to steal it from Seheron the first time, it is implied that it was almost sheer luck that she manged to survive, and even that was because she deliberately sailed her ship into a hurricane knowing that the dreadnought chasing her probably wouldn't survive. It was nothing short of a miracle that she got out of that one, and she also only managed to steal it the second time because Hawke was helping her, she wasn't sneaking into a land controlled by Qunari, and Kirkwall itself was a din of chaos and anarchy which also made the job easier.
Isabela isn't a Mary Sue because, like Zevran, she's a take-it-or-leave it kind of person. She's made mistakes but she works through them, and she's not interested in getting close to people because they tie her down. Her actions are not excused by her companions, and it's pretty clear that if she felt that she really had to, she would ditch town in a heartbeat. The only thing keeping her back is loyalty if she's close to Hawke.
Hell, Varric's readership spans the entirety of Thedas, he's a (reluctant) successful businessman, good/excellent archer, dabbles in being a spymaster and now rules Kirkwall. Honestly.
The readership thing is actually pretty realistic. Books can be translated, printed, and transported pretty much everywhere, so it makes sense that he's known all over Thedas. Hell, the Sherlock Holmes novels were even read in Japan when Sir Doyle was writing them! He's also a dwarf raised in a merchant class family where he was not only expected to know everything about business, that was his life. That was literally what his family lived for. Dwarven caste systems are pretty rigid, even on the surface. Also, he's involved in the Carta, so skills at being a spymaster and being a good shot make sense given his background.
And Varric is also not a Mary Sue because he has some pretty significant flaws. He doesn't think about the future, he lives partially in the past, he's hung up on a woman who lives hundreds of miles away who is married to another man and whom he gets to see maybe once or twice a decade, and he's a liar. You can call him out on being a liar at least, and that particular trait wins him very few friends. People may like him, sure, but no one really knows or trusts him aside from a select few.
My point is, ultimately, that all these other characters have flaws and problems and issues and the game doesn't behave like we're supposed to like them. We're allowed to react to them either positively or negatively, and it reacts back accordingly. We don't have that option with Bianca. We can either love her, or we can love her. Even the rudest, most aggressive Inquisitor can't really do anything to show their disapproval. She basically gets away with her idiocy scot-free, and it makes no sense why that is. Why can we allow Celene, the empress of Orlais to be assassinated, and yet we can't smack a dwarf in the face for spreading blighted lyrium around that drives people insane?
THAT is why people don't like her.
To be fair the pcs are the true Mary sues.
This is true, although I think it's somewhat mitigated when the companions react to you based on your choices.
Also, it's REALLY freaking hard not to have a Mary Sue PC, especially when you create/design them yourself, in addition to choosing their personality. Games where the PC is already created and written out and you just guide them don't have to worry about that problem.
Dorian: Varric, are you and Cassandra... ?
Varric: What? No! Why would you even ask that?
Dorian: Truly? Bizarre.
Varric: Just because two people dislike each other doesn't mean they're about to kiss, Sparkler.
Dorian: Not according to your books.
Varric: Don't mistake me for that hack who wrote Hard in Hightown II. I can spell.
THAT is why people don't like her.
Fair, though I wouldn't put the red lyrium death's squarely at her feet, no more than I'd put it at Bartrand/Varric/Hawke/Meredith's feet.
If the root cause of the accusations are because the Inquisitor couldn't yell at her and not her accomplishments (which aren't really out of line with many of the companions) then I'd imagine they'd dissipate if she shows up again, the outlines for someone who is brilliant but fickle, reckless and self-centered are already there. Unless she was supposed to be/come across as an everyman like Varric and I really don't think that was the case.
Fair, though I wouldn't put the red lyrium death's squarely at her feet, no more than I'd put it at Bartrand/Varric/Hawke/Meredith's feet.
I disagree in the sense that the outcome was far more disastrous than what happened to the aforementioned characters. She may have only wanted to examine the stuff, and her intentions weren't malevolent when she went looking for it. BUT she dug it up using information that Varric gave her (which he should never have done in the first place) after he told her to never go near the stuff and to leave it alone. If he told her everything that happened, and it's pretty clear that he did, she would have known just how dangerous it was and how bad it could be if it got out on the surface.
She did it anyway, because she was curious. And she didn't just do it alone, oh, no, she brought other people with her, including Corypheus, and the stuff got spread around to the point where we see it in DA:I.
Now, did she herself go out and cause all that chaos and death? No, and she didn't want to. But the fact of the matter is that had she just listened to Varric and left it well enough alone, it's possible that Corypheus would never have found the thaig or the red lyrium, and it wouldn't have been spread out the way it has. Which is not to say that Corypheus wouldn't have heard about it and found it on his own, because he could have. But Bianca literally led him straight to the source, and the rest, as we say, is history.
Bartrand/Varric/Hawke just found the stuff, and one of them went crazy and the other two wanted nothing to do with it afterwards. Varric and Hawke both think the stuff is pure evil and one of Varric's quests is to destroy all the stuff you come across. They wanted to keep it hidden, and Bianca did the exact opposite. Honestly I have to question just how smart she is when she did that even after she heard what happened to Meredith.
So, do I think Bianca is a mass-murdering psychopath? No, I don't. But I do think she's an idiot who unknowingly aided the enemy. In most wars, unintentionally passing information to the enemy can get you charged with treason. She should have answered for all the damage she caused, but she didn't even show remorse other than "it was a bad idea". Yeah, I'm sure that's great consolation for the families who had red lyrium shoved down their throats, Templar or otherwise.
If the root cause of the accusations are because the Inquisitor couldn't yell at her and not her accomplishments (which aren't really out of line with many of the companions) then I'd imagine they'd dissipate if she shows up again, the outlines for someone who is brilliant but fickle, reckless and self-centered are already there. Unless she was supposed to be/come across as an everyman like Varric and I really don't think that was the case.
I don't think I would be truly satisfied with her unless I could call her out on all the damage her stupid decision caused, and I also don't think the complaints would dissipate either. If she was canonically fickle, reckless and self-centered, then people would just dislike her even more.
I could see myself coming to terms with her character under only once circumstance: in the next game, you discover somehow that Bianca is being hunted by something. You find her surrounded by angry people who's loved ones were lost to the red lyrium, and they're going to make her suffer the same way by making her eat it. You can either let them go through with it, or force them to stop. Either way, she is faced with the results of her choice in a very real way, and hopefully she would understand the full ramifications of her actions. If she then left trying to atone for this, I would at least respect her character for being willing to try to help.
As it currently stands, she's got no remorse or guilt and no one around to tell her that she should have those things.
I disagree in the sense that the outcome was far more disastrous than what happened to the aforementioned characters. She may have only wanted to examine the stuff, and her intentions weren't malevolent when she went looking for it. BUT she dug it up using information that Varric gave her (which he should never have done in the first place) after he told her to never go near the stuff and to leave it alone. If he told her everything that happened, and it's pretty clear that he did, she would have known just how dangerous it was and how bad it could be if it got out on the surface.
She did it anyway, because she was curious. And she didn't just do it alone, oh, no, she brought other people with her, including Corypheus, and the stuff got spread around to the point where we see it in DA:I.
Now, did she herself go out and cause all that chaos and death? No, and she didn't want to. But the fact of the matter is that had she just listened to Varric and left it well enough alone, it's possible that Corypheus would never have found the thaig or the red lyrium, and it wouldn't have been spread out the way it has. Which is not to say that Corypheus wouldn't have heard about it and found it on his own, because he could have. But Bianca literally led him straight to the source, and the rest, as we say, is history.
Bartrand/Varric/Hawke just found the stuff, and one of them went crazy and the other two wanted nothing to do with it afterwards. Varric and Hawke both think the stuff is pure evil and one of Varric's quests is to destroy all the stuff you come across. They wanted to keep it hidden, and Bianca did the exact opposite. Honestly I have to question just how smart she is when she did that even after she heard what happened to Meredith.
To her credit she did come up in person and tried to fix it, albeit by roping in the Quisie and Varric. She could've just ignored it or sent an anonymous tip. Plus, as far as I know she's the only person whose managed to find a way to disable red lyrium's mind effecting abilities with the thing she builds for Varric if he keeps the idol/shard so the curiosity is not entirely without purpose or merit.
And Bartrand/Varric/Hawke still decided to go digging up a lost thaig for personal greed, they still decided to forge forward when they met the Profane, despite the fact that the thaig evidently never fell to the darkspawn yet was very much dead etc. But this is why I don't play blame hot potato, if a bunch of people's actions play a role in a tragedy but they didn't intend for it to/had no way to know it would I tend to blame whoever was the knowingly malicious catalyst. Which Corypheus in this case.
I don't think I would be truly satisfied with her unless I could call her out on all the damage her stupid decision caused, and I also don't think the complaints would dissipate either. If she was canonically fickle, reckless and self-centered, then people would just dislike her even more.
I could see myself coming to terms with her character under only once circumstance: in the next game, you discover somehow that Bianca is being hunted by something. You find her surrounded by angry people who's loved ones were lost to the red lyrium, and they're going to make her suffer the same way by making her eat it. You can either let them go through with it, or force them to stop. Either way, she is faced with the results of her choice in a very real way, and hopefully she would understand the full ramifications of her actions. If she then left trying to atone for this, I would at least respect her character for being willing to try to help.
As it currently stands, she's got no remorse or guilt and no one around to tell her that she should have those things.
I don't really care whether people dislike Bianca as a character, I just want her to be (seen as) a better character. Not one note or rote or Mary Sue or forced likeability etc.
I disagree in the sense that the outcome was far more disastrous than what happened to the aforementioned characters. She may have only wanted to examine the stuff, and her intentions weren't malevolent when she went looking for it. BUT she dug it up using information that Varric gave her (which he should never have done in the first place) after he told her to never go near the stuff and to leave it alone. If he told her everything that happened, and it's pretty clear that he did, she would have known just how dangerous it was and how bad it could be if it got out on the surface.
She did it anyway, because she was curious. And she didn't just do it alone, oh, no, she brought other people with her, including Corypheus, and the stuff got spread around to the point where we see it in DA:I.
Now, did she herself go out and cause all that chaos and death? No, and she didn't want to. But the fact of the matter is that had she just listened to Varric and left it well enough alone, it's possible that Corypheus would never have found the thaig or the red lyrium, and it wouldn't have been spread out the way it has. Which is not to say that Corypheus wouldn't have heard about it and found it on his own, because he could have. But Bianca literally led him straight to the source, and the rest, as we say, is history.
Bartrand/Varric/Hawke just found the stuff, and one of them went crazy and the other two wanted nothing to do with it afterwards. Varric and Hawke both think the stuff is pure evil and one of Varric's quests is to destroy all the stuff you come across. They wanted to keep it hidden, and Bianca did the exact opposite. Honestly I have to question just how smart she is when she did that even after she heard what happened to Meredith.
So, do I think Bianca is a mass-murdering psychopath? No, I don't. But I do think she's an idiot who unknowingly aided the enemy. In most wars, unintentionally passing information to the enemy can get you charged with treason. She should have answered for all the damage she caused, but she didn't even show remorse other than "it was a bad idea". Yeah, I'm sure that's great consolation for the families who had red lyrium shoved down their throats, Templar or otherwise.
I think it's because she knew how dangerous the red lyrium could be that Bianca actually decided to study the stuff. Because, she's a scientist. How are you expected to fight back against a thing if you don't understand how it works in the first place? (If Hawke allowed Varric to keep the red lyrium shard she's the one who created the vault it's kept in, so it's not like she hadn't very good reason to try to learn how the stuff actually works. Also it makes Batrand go mad - how can you expect that maybe give him back his sanity one day if you don't know why he lost it in the first place?)
You mentioned that Vava likely told her to stay away from it, to leave it alone, and it's actually my biggest grip with him: for all his qualities, Varric is the bloody king of the oistrich technique: if he sticks his head in the sand long enough, the issue will just go away. Except it never does, and it takes him the whole Inquisition game before finally deciding to roll up his sleeves and deal with the aftermaths of Anders' and Merediths' actions on Kirkwall.
In the meanwhile, Bianca discovered that 1) red lyrium is blighted which leads to 2) lyrium is alive. Now, everyone who has played the Descent knows that Bianca is right, since lyrium has been revealed to be Titan's blood, and it's time for pretty much everyone to freak out, because it means at least one Titan is sick. Has been sick for centuries at best, milleniums at worst, since Bartrand claimed to have found a thaig that predated the first Blight. Had Bianca been an oistrich just like Varric...Thedas would have been screwed even more than it already is.
Also you're basically throwing her the stone because she went to a Warden to share that discovery of her with, when no one in whole Thedas knows better about the Blight than the Grey Wardens. You're blaming her for doing the most sensitive thing she or any scholar in the same position with the same knowledge, could have (and should have) done. It's nothing but sheer bad luck (also known as "scenarium") that said Warden turned to be either Larius or Janika, the same Warden that Corypheus ended possessing after his defeat at the hands of Hawke and Varric. Had it been anyone else, Bianca would have been hailed one of the greatest minds of Thedas...again.
Also sure, Varric's quest to "destroy" red lyrium deposits sounds fancy and all...until you reach Suledin Keep and listen to the Tranquil and the dwarf lady's discussion about how difficult it actually is to destroy the stuff. And you realize you did nothing at best, at worst you've actually helped the stuff to spread. By the time of Trespasser, apparently red lyrium has finally been cleared from the surface, but it's two years later. And myself I strongly believe that it was made possible only because of Bianca. The same Bianca who actually went to Varric and the Inquisition to help her fix her own mistakes, when she could have been a bloody oistrich. Could she have been straightfoward about the whole thing, sure, but as Dorian points, no one wants to admit loudly they sh*t their bed.
At least she tried to clean the mess, which is more than enough in my book.
I don't really care whether people dislike Bianca as a character, I just want her to be (seen as) a better character. Not one note or rote or Mary Sue or forced likeability etc.
I concur, while I like her character, she does need to be better written if she's brought back.
The problem with her depiction in Inquisition is that it seems the writers were trying to make her likeable and demonstrate why she's Varric's dreamgirl, only to accidentally shill her to the point where people started to dislike her and feel like Varric could do better. The final banter was probably intended to be a friendly warning, but as some people were soured to the character from the previous interaction with her, it was enough to be viewed by some quarters as an actual threat.
As much as I hate to lay into Bioware, they do sometimes fumble the writing badly when it comes to certain plots and characters. I think that's what happened in Inquisition, so that the issues people have with Bianca stem from how she was written here, but should not necessarily be taken as things inherently wrong with the character itself.
It happens to even good characters from time to time, just take a look at Arya's wonky plotline in Season 6 of Game of Thrones;
Well, Varric was present but Hawke was always the person who decided where they would go, not Varric. And red lyrium has been around a very very long time. That idol predated even Ancient Dwarves and it was made from Lyrium, which we find out is a living organism. Neither Hawke now Varric gave birth to red lyriums existence. And come post Conclave explosion, we find the stuff literally everywhere and it's not really explained why something that's existed 1000 years + has only now flourished enough to be present so abundantly.
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