24 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaia300]

We did not had any case of spirits infected  by the taint.

 

-We  had justice who was able to remain in both Kristoff and Anders corrupted bodies without apparent issues.

-A spiritual warden warrior  who is able to flirt with spirits regardless of the taint.

-A spirit in the avvar crypts in DAA who entered into an Ogre and then was not infected.

 

All these seem to point out that spirits cannot be influenced by the taint which operate only on a physical plane.

The only counter argument may be the archdemon souls since they are transcendents but....  souls are not spirits.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I forget the exact wording of the quite, but Avernus said something about how it confuses spirits because it's so alien to them.  Not exactly confirming up your premise, but perhaps adding a bit of weight to it?

 

RE: Archdemons.  Note that the soul of the 5th Archdemon was taint free when it entered Kieren.  I suspect it is just the tainted body corrupting the physical mind, leaving the soul intact.

[German Soldier]

RE: Archdemons. Note that the soul of the 5th Archdemon was taint free when it entered Kieren. I suspect it is just the tainted body corrupting the physical mind, leaving the soul intact.

It was not.
It was removed after it entered the new host but that soul was corrupted,if it is as you said then the archdemons should not be forced to jump into darkspawns.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

Source, please?  I don't recall anything about  the soul having to be cleansed after it entered Kieren.

[German Soldier]

Source, please?  I don't recall anything about  the soul having to be cleansed after it entered Kieren.

Archdemon souls are corrupted because each time an archdemon is killed is forced to jump into another tainted host which mean that not only their body but also their soul is corrupted otherwise upon their death their souls shouldn't be forced to jump into another tainted host.

 

In fact the DR make no sense because it should not even work  since Kieran is tainted when the soul reach him thus the archdemon should have been reborn rather than being freed from the taint.

[Beren Von Ostwick]

I think that's an assumption on your part.  Just because a body needs to have the taint within it to be capable of receiving the soul does not in and of itself mean the soul itself is also corrupted.  There is no explanation as to why it can only go into tainted bodies and we shouldn't assume why.  Also, note, Kieren is the exception to that as his is not corrupted., though I'm sure that's where that whole "dark ritual" comes into play.

[German Soldier]

I think that's an assumption on your part.  Just because a body needs to have the taint within it to be capable of receiving the soul does not in and of itself mean the soul itself is also corrupted.  There is no explanation as to why it can only go into tainted bodies and we shouldn't assume why.  Also, note, Kieren is the exception to that as his is not corrupted., though I'm sure that's where that whole "dark ritual" comes into play.

It's not an assumption the DR work only because after conception Kieran inherited the taint and is corrupted is even stated in the game.

He is not an exception  but just someone that had a dormant will that did not destroyed the old god soul .

Also note how Flemeth said that the soul was literally snatched from Darkness.

[ModernAcademic]

Archdemon souls are corrupted because each time an archdemon is killed is forced to jump into another tainted host which mean that not only their body but also their soul is corrupted otherwise upon their death their souls shouldn't be forced to jump into another tainted host.

 

In fact the DR make no sense because it should not even work  since Kieran is tainted when the soul reach him thus the archdemon should have been reborn rather than being freed from the taint.

 

I think along the same lines.

 

The only reason the DR could work in my mind is if pregnancy somehow causes metabolic changes in the mother's blood and purifies the taint. 

The chemical changes mother and son's bloods undergo during pregnancy would create a natural antidote for the taint.

 

That would also explain why Alistair was born without the taint from his Warden mother.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The DA wiki claims Spirits and Demons avoid trying to get into the Black City because they'll be tainted. They use the Origins game guide to source it, so I don't know if that would be information that still stands or not. http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Black_City

[Alaric]

I think along the same lines.

 

The only reason the DR could work in my mind is if pregnancy somehow causes metabolic changes in the mother's blood and purifies the taint. 

The chemical changes mother and son's bloods undergo during pregnancy would create a natural antidote for the taint.

 

That would also explain why Alistair was born without the taint from his Warden mother.

I think that this most likely might be the case.

 

During the explanation of the Dark Ritual that Morrigan gives you on the eve of battle, she says this;
"What I propose is this; lay with me. Here, tonight. And from our joining, a child will be conceived. The child will bear the taint, and when the Archdemon is slain, its essence will seek the child like a beacon. At this early stage, the child can absorb the essence and not perish. The archdemon is still destroyed, with no Grey Warden dying in the process."

 

When the Warden asks; "So the child will become a darkspawn?" 

Morrigan responds with; 'Not at all. It will become something different; a child born with the soul of an Old God." 

 

What this tells me at least, is one of two things:

• The child is already tainted once it is conceived by the Warden and Morrigan, and with the aid of the Dark Ritual, upon the death of the Archdemon its soul is drawn to the child instead of the Grey Warden, where the undeveloped child absorbs the soul and the essence of the Archdemon, destroying it; leaving just the soul of the child and Old God.

Or.

• The child is tainted by the ritual and not by the Warden and the taint or perhaps a magical proxy in the place of the taint, forces the Archdemon toward it like a beacon and from there the soul is absorbed and again, the taint is unable to take root of the undeveloped child because of the rapid and drastic changes happening to the cell structure so it is eventually destroyed or absorbed entirely, negating any negative effect.

Morrigan says the child will not be a darkspawn, which I would assume means that the soul of the Old God and the body of Kieran will not harbor any signs of the taint. The fact alone that the soul of the Archdemon is attracted to the blight suggests that the soul is blighted. Yet Bianca Davri says that the Blight only taints living creatures (and Lyrium.) 

Nocte ad Mortem has a good point though; I didn't know about that lore article until it was posted!
It seems that Spirts and Demons do fear getting tainted by going near the Black City. Wherever it is still in-game canon is up for debate I suppose, but it'd be nice to be able to explore that source of the taint itself.
​

[German Soldier]

I think along the same lines.

The only reason the DR could work in my mind is if pregnancy somehow causes metabolic changes in the mother's blood and purifies the taint.
The chemical changes mother and son's bloods undergo during pregnancy would create a natural antidote for the taint.

That would also explain why Alistair was born without the taint from his Warden mother.

It still don't make much sense
GW can have children which are born taint less,but this is a process that require time.
On the other hand with the DR an Archdemon enter a tainted host and for some reason it is not reborn...

[Aulis Vaara]

It still don't make much sense
GW can have children which are born taint less,but this is a process that require time.
On the other hand with the DR an Archdemon enter a tainted host and for some reason it is not reborn...

It's a MAGICAL ritual, not a natural process.

-----

As for the actual topic: tainted lyrium cannot create ghouls or darkspawn, it creates Red Templars which are similar but not the same. Likewise, darkspawn cannot taint Lyrium. Which tells us that if spirits can be tainted, they most likely won't be tainted by either Lyrium or darkspawn, but only by the source of the taint (in the Black City?).

[Daerog]

Why would Kieran be tainted? It isn't passed to Warden children. The details of the ritual are not explained, and it may have to do with the child having a connection to a tainted being.

There are enchantnents that manipulate the blight/taint, both repelling and enhancing, but few know them. Such manipulation caused Fiona to be free of the Calling.

Spirits are not tainted (maybe), but it seems souls can be chained to the blight, as seems to be the case for Cory and the AD, and I theorize the same case for Archie (which would explain his belief that he was just another darkspawn, if he was killed and reborn from a broodmother with no memories).

[German Soldier]

Why would Kieran be tainted? It isn't passed to Warden children. The details of the ritual are not explained, and it may have to do with the child having a connection to a tainted being.
 

The corruption  is always  passed to GW children but is removed in time before they are born....

Kieran was tainted at conception and when the archdemon soul entered  to him  it should have not be freed from the taint rather it should have allowed the archdemon to ressurect.......

[German Soldier]

It's a MAGICAL ritual, not a natural process.
 

A  magical  ritual which has no logic unlike the US.

[Aulis Vaara]

A magical ritual which has no logic unlike the US.

You mean the same ultimate sacrifice that claims mutual soul annihilation, yet when we have someone with an actual soul (Corypheus), that rule stops working. Hmm, yeah, great logic there.

The corruption is always passed to GW children but is removed in time before they are born....

Source? Because that sounds absolutely nuts and would make no sense. How would fetuses miraculously get rid of the taint? The same taint that frightens an ancient elven goddess, but a little unborn child would totally get rid of it. But of course, according to you, not well enough to prevent the Archdemon from being reborn. THAT would be one miracle too far.

Kieran was tainted at conception and when the archdemon soul entered to him it should have not be freed from the taint rather it should have allowed the archdemon to ressurect...

Oh, and since when have we met any character that knows how the body surf actually works? Oh, right, Flemeth, who actually came up with the Dark Ritual.

Now, I'm not sure how Flemeth knows, because I don't think Mythal did in her day (evidenced by the fact that Fen'Harel doesn't as he was completely blindsided by Corypheus power, that he didn't have a solution to the problem, and that the ancient elves buried the darkspawn rather than trying to defeat them).

All in all, we simply don't know enough about the Old Gods and the taint to call anything illogical at the moment.

[German Soldier]

You mean the same ultimate sacrifice that claims mutual soul annihilation, yet when we have someone with an actual soul (Corypheus), that rule stops working. Hmm, yeah, great logic there.
 

-Corypheus soul isn't an archdemon soul  this may imply that his soul is less difficult to bear for an host and don't cause any annihilation,to support this evidence we know that Cory can actually remain dormant into an host unlike the Archdemons....

 

-Corypheus got his ability form the primary source of the blight the black city not from darkspawns like the Archdemons which is also another  important difference.

 

-Corypheus bend on his will with blood magic and also a false calling the GW before to jump on them  unlike the Archdemon....

Those GW were already under Corypheus control...thus the US did not worked on him because they were willing hosts that's another critical difference.

 

 

Source? Because that sounds absolutely nuts and would make no sense. How would fetuses miraculously get rid of the taint? The same taint that frightens an ancient elven goddess, but a little unborn child would totally get rid of it. But of course, according to you, not well enough to prevent the Archdemon from being reborn. THAT would be one miracle too far.
 

Morrigan  says that the child will inherit the taint from the father that's why the archdemon soul is tricked by the ritual

 It's a dialogue in the game so i'm not sure why you want to argue that Kieran wasn't tainted at conception?

 

 

The writers never explained why GW children are born without the taint. 

 

What we know for certain is that a child can born apart from the taint if one of the parents was a non-GW and the GW in question wasn't too much tainted a young warden otherwise it cannot be conceived at all.

 

snip

The rest of your post was highly disconnected since you even mentioned Solas which had perfect reasons for being unaware of Corypheus abilities only the GW knew....

 

We know enough to say that the DR is illogical in its mechanics since it was never explained how the Archdemon was able to be freed rather than reborn and kill her from the inside if it entered into a corrupted host with no will.

[Aulis Vaara]

I'm not arguing that Kieran was tainted. You are the one arguing that a fetus can both a) heal from the taint and not heal from the taint and instead be taken over by the Archdemon.

A & not A -> everything

Everything about Corypheus is conjecture.

The Dark Ritual diverts the OGS to a tainted child. Well, we know that a body surf occurs for an Archdemon upon his death. It makes sense that someone with the proper knowledge (like an ancient elven goddess or her daughters) could divert it. We also know that a tainted person can be cured from the Blight. What we don't know is how long an Archdemon needs to reassemble itself, if that is even relevant. The magic in the ritual might activate well before the Archdemon gets a chance to, perhaps even before it arrives. So the only thing we don't actually know is the magic part of the magic ritual.

But for the body surf, we don't know why the mutual soul annihilation occurs. We don't know why Corypheus can do what an Old God cannot, why his soul is not annihilated when trying to possess a souled being. We simply do not have certainties here, what Riordan told us does not hold up in light of Corypheus, and we can conjecture why that is, but we don't KNOW.

[In Exile]

We did not had any case of spirits infected by the taint.

-We had justice who was able to remain in both Kristoff and Anders corrupted bodies without apparent issues.
-A spiritual warden warrior who is able to flirt with spirits regardless of the taint.
-A spirit in the avvar crypts in DAA who entered into an Ogre and then was not infected.

All these seem to point out that spirits cannot be influenced by the taint which operate only on a physical plane.
The only counter argument may be the archdemon souls since they are transcendents but.... souls are not spirits.

We do. Justice. DG mentioned that the taint could have had an effect. And we see Corypheus drive it nuts.

[Lunatica]

We do. Justice. DG mentioned that the taint could have had an effect. And we see Corypheus drive it nuts.

I assume you meant this interview?

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

 

There Gaider gave equally credit to both theories:

Of the taint that may have corrupted Justice in time or of Justice that may have blocked the calling,he simply never decided an outcome so they both remained theories in the end.

 

 

We know enough to say that the DR is illogical in its mechanics since it was never explained how the Archdemon was able to be freed rather than reborn and kill her from the inside if it entered into a corrupted host with no will.

We do know from Gaider that the taint trigger it's effects over a matter of concentration,so I can reasonably say that an Archdemon's rebirth it's dependant on a  given parameter of taint concentration in the vessel which in Kieran's body is below to the one that is required to trigger the process.

 

[German Soldier]

 

 

We do know from Gaider that the taint trigger it's effects over a matter of concentration,so I can reasonably say that an Archdemon's rebirth it's dependant on a  given parameter of taint concentration in the vessel which in Kieran's body is below to the one that is required to trigger the process.

 

 

Ok i can see the point you countered my reasoning i wasn't able to correlate everything... due to  missing infos and this aspect of the taint was only revealed by Gaider on the forum in regard of GW.

[German Soldier]

But for the body surf, we don't know why the mutual soul annihilation occurs. We don't know why Corypheus can do what an Old God cannot, why his soul is not annihilated when trying to possess a souled being. We simply do not have certainties here, what Riordan told us does not hold up in light of Corypheus, and we can conjecture why that is, but we don't KNOW.

 That the souls annihilate is only a conjecture of GW for all we know they may be simply forced to go in the fade..thus break the cycle of rebirth...

 

As for the rest of your post i assumed that Archdemon reborn immediately i don't know if they require time to do it...that was my assumption but i found a codex about Dumat that seem to say  the contrary....so it seems they need time to reborn... my assumption was not correct...

[Feral'Hen]

The Taint does not corrupt the soul per se, it does however corrupt the memories of its host.

Source: Regarding the Calling

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think people are taking the in-game stated rules for things like how the Old Gods/Archdemons function, the Dark Ritual and the Taint for granted when those are all things we have to deal with "unreliable narration" on so far, basically. We don't really know what the Old Gods are or what their connection to the Taint is. We have in-game lore, but the lore in the DA series is unreliable until actually ironed out with more than hearsay and legend in game. If a PC hasn't seen glaring evidence of the truth, it's still questionable. It's basically a theme at this point that standard belief in Thedas is misguided, rather than the reverse. Inquisition was one massive example of that. Morrigan explains the Dark Ritual as it was explained to her by Flemeth when she sent Morrigan to do it, but Flemeth routinely lied to Morrigan and literally everyone else. Who knows if she got the real version. I think it's fine to have theories about how these things work, but we should remember that what we've been told in-game about how these things work is largely still in the "maybe" category. In a future game they'll probably explain the full nature of the Old Gods, but so far we have very little understanding of what they are or how they work. 

[BraveVesperia]

I've seen suggestions before that part of Justice's change in personality was due to the Blight/Taint. It's also worth noting that Anders (via Justice) was the only one severely affected by Corypheus' calling in Legacy. Neither Bethany nor Carver flipped out if they were Wardens. I think it can corrupt a spirit, just maybe not in the same way as mortals.