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Reaper fleet strength?


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#1
XxX_DogeID_XxX

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1) How many Capital ships exist

 

2) With how much force does the reaper beam hit? (I read its 125-450 kiloton) 

 

3) How are destroyers made?

 

4) Reaper damage inconsistency... So in the last battle for earth a turian and an alliance dreadnought/cruiser are seen dismantling a reaper in seconds... But on rannoch the ENTIRE quarian fleet took like 4 pricision strikes on a 150m destroyer! Hell he even survived for a bit after that... And in ME1 sovereign is seen brushing off attacks from the entire fith fleet and what was left of the citadel fleet... Hell he even colided with a turian cruiser and took NO DAMAGE... 



#2
Jukaga

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1) As many as there needs to be to be unbeatable conventionally. There is no hard number mentioned, IIRC

 

2) Sounds about right, but meaningless. Nameless ship: tickle it and it blows up. Normandy: Can take a death star beam and keep truckin'

 

3) 'Lesser' races. For our cycle, races like Quarians and Volus would be made into Destroyers

 

4) Plot armor vs. rule of cool. Whichever the current writer prefers for the scene.

 

Don't look for consistency in their abilities, tactics and motivations because it ain't there.


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#3
KotorEffect3

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I am curious about individual Reapers, mainly the capital ships.  For instance I would like to know what cycle Sovereign or "Nazara" was created in and what people it was created from (I suspect they were called the Nazara).  Stuff like this I suppose will never be answered.  I've always wondered if it was the second reaper capital ship created after Harbinger.



#4
themikefest

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1) How many Capital ships exist

Here's a post in another thread explaining how many they may have at the beginning of ME3
 

3) How are destroyers made?

I woulod guess the same way as capital ships are built
 

4) Reaper damage inconsistency... So in the last battle for earth a turian and an alliance dreadnought/cruiser are seen dismantling a reaper in seconds...

Wasn't it just an Alliance ship? It fires two shots that shoots off two of the legs of the capital ship before the ship is destroyed by the reaper. That only happens if ems is over 2300. Below, that capital ship destroys an Alliance ship and a destroyer is seen landing on top of a turian ship
 

But on rannoch the ENTIRE quarian fleet took like 4 pricision strikes on a 150m destroyer! Hell he even survived for a bit after that...

I only say about 6 maybe 7 ships fire at the thing. Not the entire fleet.

The problem I have with that reaper is when its first fired on, it falls over. It appears destroyed. At which point Shepard will say to Gerrell that its weak point is the firing chamber. That's incorrect. The rounds hit the reaper before it could open its doors to fire its beam of doom.

Gerrell will say he can't make the precision shot needed. That's incorrect. He hit it the first time. Hit the thing again.

After that, the thing gets back up. I'm surprised it was able to. It starts firing in space. Shepard paints the target. The target is hit, but yet it doesn't fall over like it did the first time. Why?

This happens a couple more times until Shepard can get on her/his tippy-toes to give the reaper a kiss, before it falls over. Then the conversation.
 

And in ME1 sovereign is seen brushing off attacks from the entire fith fleet and what was left of the citadel fleet...

That whole thing was setup to have the itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie frigate make the kill shot. A thousand ships can fire at Sovereign and still not damage the thing. Even when its shields were disabled, it still wasn't taking damage. It was the SR1, the most powerful ship in the galaxy, for that few seconds, along with a fighter on each side, that destroyed the reaper
 

Hell he even colided with a turian cruiser and took NO DAMAGE...

I did like that. Too bad the reapers didn't do that against the allied fleets over Earth


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#5
XxX_DogeID_XxX

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Here's a post in another thread explaining how many they may have at the beginning of ME3
 

I woulod guess the same way as capital ships are built
 

Wasn't it just an Alliance ship? It fires two shots that shoots off two of the legs of the capital ship before the ship is destroyed by the reaper. That only happens if ems is over 2300. Below, that capital ship destroys an Alliance ship and a destroyer is seen landing on top of a turian ship
 

I only say about 6 maybe 7 ships fire at the thing. Not the entire fleet.

The problem I have with that reaper is when its first fired on, it falls over. It appears destroyed. At which point Shepard will say to Gerrell that its weak point is the firing chamber. That's incorrect. The rounds hit the reaper before it could open its doors to fire its beam of doom.

Gerrell will say he can't make the precision shot needed. That's incorrect. He hit it the first time. Hit the thing again.

After that, the thing gets back up. I'm surprised it was able to. It starts firing in space. Shepard paints the target. The target is hit, but yet it doesn't fall over like it did the first time. Why?

This happens a couple more times until Shepard can get on her/his tippy-toes to give the reaper a kiss, before it falls over. Then the conversation.
 

That whole thing was setup to have the itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie frigate make the kill shot. A thousand ships can fire at Sovereign and still not damage the thing. Even when its shields were disabled, it still wasn't taking damage. It was the SR1, the most powerful ship in the galaxy, for that few seconds, along with a fighter on each side, that destroyed the reaper
 

I did like that. Too bad the reapers didn't do that against the allied fleets over Earth

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#6
gothpunkboy89

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I only say about 6 maybe 7 ships fire at the thing. Not the entire fleet.

The problem I have with that reaper is when its first fired on, it falls over. It appears destroyed. At which point Shepard will say to Gerrell that its weak point is the firing chamber. That's incorrect. The rounds hit the reaper before it could open its doors to fire its beam of doom.

Gerrell will say he can't make the precision shot needed. That's incorrect. He hit it the first time. Hit the thing again.

After that, the thing gets back up. I'm surprised it was able to. It starts firing in space. Shepard paints the target. The target is hit, but yet it doesn't fall over like it did the first time. Why?

This happens a couple more times until Shepard can get on her/his tippy-toes to give the reaper a kiss, before it falls over. Then the conversation.
 

 

 

Confusing game play with story.

 

According to Traynor the Reaper was firing into space the whole time requiring Joker to put the Normandy though it's paces to avoid being shot.

 

The set up is nice and dramatic but wouldn't actually happen as the ships in orbit are the real threat and Shepard wouldn't be what the Reaper would need to aim at.

 

But Shepard standing around avoiding being hit by friendly fire just isn't as dramatic as the Reaper slowly advancing on him.



#7
themikefest

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According to Traynor the Reaper was firing into space the whole time requiring Joker to put the Normandy though it's paces to avoid being shot.

She said the whole time? Hmm. I just listened to what she said and it wasn't that. She said it fired up a few times, not the whole time

 

Here. Listen for yourself

Spoiler



#8
Addictress

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If Harbinger is based on the Leviathans, I wonder what alien race Sovereign was based on....


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#9
gothpunkboy89

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She said the whole time? Hmm. I just listened to what she said and it wasn't that. She said it fired up a few times, not the whole time

 

Here. Listen for yourself

Spoiler

 

And shooting up at the ships the only thing capable of actually being a threat to you isn't accomplished by dragging a beam across the floor first. then firing it into the air. Giving away well in advance were the beam would be heading allowing all but the most crippled or unlucky ships to be hit by it.



#10
gothpunkboy89

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If Harbinger is based on the Leviathans, I wonder what alien race Sovereign was based on....

 

Dinosaurs.

 

Going to call it now. An asteroid strike didn't wipe out the dinosaurs the Reapers did and created Sovereign.


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#11
themikefest

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And shooting up at the ships the only thing capable of actually being a threat to you isn't accomplished by dragging a beam across the floor first. then firing it into the air. Giving away well in advance were the beam would be heading allowing all but the most crippled or unlucky ships to be hit by it.

This has nothing to do with what I posted. What you posted about what Traynor said was incorrect.



#12
gothpunkboy89

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This has nothing to do with what I posted. What you posted about what Traynor said was incorrect.

 

 

And yet

 

 



Gerrell will say he can't make the precision shot needed. That's incorrect. He hit it the first time. Hit the thing again.

After that, the thing gets back up. I'm surprised it was able to. It starts firing in space. Shepard paints the target. The target is hit, but yet it doesn't fall over like it did the first time. Why?

 

This happens a couple more times until Shepard can get on her/his tippy-toes to give the reaper a kiss, before it falls over. Then the conversation.



#13
themikefest

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And yet nothing. You just have a problem with someone pointing out something that you posted incorrectly



#14
iM3GTR

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I would've preffered there to only be about 50 reapers or so to be honest, with a big emphasis on indoctrination as a way for the reapers to win. This makes it make more sense that Sovereign didn't open the citadel relay early on by using a regular relay: He wanted the Rachni and Krogan armies to use in order to help the reapers as there weren't enough reapers to just let them attack so quickly, and that Shepard destroying the projects on Noveria and Virmire pressured Sovereign into using the conduit too soon.

I don't really like the idea of the reapers using the "best" races to create one more reaper each cycle, because it led to the "humans are special" narrative.
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#15
kal_reegar

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I think that their number are overstimated, at least after the prothean war.

 

They attacked the prothean when they were immensely more advanced than this cycle (they were one step away from building mass relays, they can blow up stars, they were at war with super-advanced AI javik believes that we are primitives).

So, why attacking this cycle so early? (the attack was probably scheduled before the rachni war)! Porbably because they know that they can't afford another war like the one against the protheans.

 

They showed inability to completely eradicate the prothean: scientist on Ilos, Vendetta, the beacon on Eden prime, Javik, the Mars archive, the crucible... the work wasn't done properly.

 

They showed to fear losses and to have the numbers to fight only on a limited number of fronts: they try in every way to gain access of the Mass relay (Sovering, Arrival: destroying a system one by one seems vital), the don't attack directly the Citadel (they use Cerberus infiltration) and they don't attack all races at the same time, allowing cooperation and aids between them.

They don't the strenght to sustain an effective "total war strategy"  in all the galaxy.

 

Finally, if Shepard choose refusal, they will defeat this cycle but they won't be able to complete the next cycle (they are no longer a threat)

 

 

So, they could claim themselves invincible and countless, but they behave exactly as if they are not.

They are very powerful, far more powerful than all the galaxy combined, no doubt, but they truly seem to have suffered (in the previous cycle, and in this one) relevant, possibly irrecoverable, blows.



#16
andy6915

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I think that their number are overstimated, at least after the prothean war.
 
They attacked the prothean when they were immensely more advanced than this cycle (they were one step away from building mass relays, they can blow up stars, they were at war with super-advanced AI javik believes that we are primitives).
So, why attacking this cycle so early? (the attack was probably scheduled before the rachni war)! Porbably because they know that they can't afford another war like the one against the protheans.
 
They showed inability to completely eradicate the prothean: scientist on Ilos, Vendetta, the beacon on Eden prime, Javik, the Mars archive, the crucible... the work wasn't done properly.
 
They showed to fear losses and to have the numbers to fight only on a limited number of fronts: they try in every way to gain access of the Mass relay (Sovering, Arrival: destroying a system one by one seems vital), the don't attack directly the Citadel (they use Cerberus infiltration) and they don't attack all races at the same time, allowing cooperation and aids between them.
They don't the strenght to sustain an effective "total war strategy"  in all the galaxy.
 
Finally, if Shepard choose refusal, they will defeat this cycle but they won't be able to complete the next cycle (they are no longer a threat)
 
 
So, they could claim themselves invincible and countless, but they behave exactly as if they are not.
They are very powerful, far more powerful than all the galaxy combined, no doubt, but they truly seem to have suffered (in the previous cycle, and in this one) relevant, possibly irrecoverable, blows.


Well, you managed to be wrong about nearly everything. That's impressive, in its own right.

 

"can't afford another war like the one against the protheans"

 

You mean a total curbstomp where they lost so badly that a single Prothean surviving to the modern day was considered miraculous? Yeah, the Reapers lost sooooo much. They could have afforded a war even worse than that without difficulty, that was nothing for them.

 

"They showed inability to completely eradicate the prothean: scientist on Ilos, Vendetta, the beacon on Eden prime, Javik, the Mars archive, the crucible... the work wasn't done properly."

 

Because of trickery, and luck. No part of this had anything to do with Proteans being awesome, it was luck and trickery. Ilos was only not found and destroyed because the data about it HAPPENED TO GET DESTROYED BY COINCIDENCE BY THE REAPERS. If not for that LUCK, Ilos would have been destroyed without fanfare and there'd be no hope for Shepard's cycle. The trickery was because they were decent at hiding things, arguably better than they were at destroying. So yes, I give credit, Protheans are going at hiding. But that doesn't mean good at fighting Reapers, I'd be surprised if the Reapers lost more than a destroyer or 2.

 

"They showed to fear losses and to have the numbers to fight only on a limited number of fronts: they try in every way to gain access of the Mass relay (Sovering, Arrival: destroying a system one by one seems vital), the don't attack directly the Citadel (they use Cerberus infiltration) and they don't attack all races at the same time, allowing cooperation and aids between them."

 

Only a limited number of fronts? You're kidding, right? By the end of the game, the entire galaxy is their front. They're attacking every single world equally by that point, their numbers are darkening the sky of every world. They're carrying out over a dozen fronts at the same time, and making it look easy. Yes, they would prefer to make it even easier, but that's simply because even AIs would prefer an easier job to a harder one. Besides, tactics are tactics. Why wouldn't you want the tactical advantage to controlling the relay network, no matter how superior you are? They don't attack the Citadel directly because it's important to their entire strategy. Or have you forgotten that it's the key to the typical Reaper tactic of using it as a trap like they did with the Protheans? Of course they'd rather not damage it, or they'll have to rebuilt the damn thing and waste even more of their time and effort. You act like they're cowards, but it's the exact opposite. They lost their relay network and Citadel trap advantage, so what did they do? Decided they didn't need it and just showed up and started kicking as anyway, without hesitation. That isn't being scared, that's being without fear at all. If they acted like you said, they would have attacked the Citadel first since they would have decided a bit of extra work and effort is worth not the risk of losing. The fact that they let the Citadel be is a sign of their confidence, not fear. Cerberus was used because they might have been able to take it with far less damage than a bunch of Capital Ships showing up and just dumping a few million husks on the station, Cerberus could take it with much less collateral damage than Reapers could (because being gentle isn't something Reapers know how to do). Of course, when it's all over and they know they've basically won, they do take the Citadel. But that's another sign of confidence, they saved the tactically most important target until it wasn't even that important anymore, they took it only after they no longer needed it for their trap. Hell, they even did it without much damage after all (which is extremely impressive). The only reason they even bothered to capture it when they did was to be the bait to lure the entire galaxy into one massive trap that was the final battle, because they knew that everyone would try to get it back.

 

On that note, something else. They purposefully didn't shut down the relay network after taking it. Earth was a trap, the plan was to lure the entire galactic fleet and the Crucible to Earth, so they could bring all their enemies to them and save them the trouble. They could have shut down the relay network the second they got the Citadel, but they didn't. Them doing that would have been the "coward tactic" you seem to think they were using in ME3, but instead they decided to intentionally let the galactic races have an advantage and then purposefully let themselves get hit by the entire combined forces of the whole galactic community. Instead of shutting the network down, they left it up and waited for the most powerful anti-Reaper fleet in history show up for a total war offensive against them. That is NOT being afraid of losses, that shows a ludicrous amount of confidence. They know that the biggest fleet they've ever fought is coming, and they let it happen because they figure it will simply be more convenient and time saving for them. I repeat: They let themselves get hit by the biggest fleet ever just for the sake of saving time, because they were so confident that they'd win that they considered destroying that fleet easier than hunting them all down individually. This is the absolute opposite of what you said it was.

 

"They don't the strenght to sustain an effective "total war strategy"  in all the galaxy."

 

Hm, is that why they left their asses hanging out for the entire allied fleet in the final battle above Earth? Is that why they let the largest fleet ever assemble to destroy them, purposefully left the network up so said fleet can reach them, all for the intention of battling and winning the biggest total war strategy that the Reapers have ever been faced with? So they didn't have the strength to do so and they knew it, yet they let it happen with full knowledge of what was coming? That makes no sense. They would not have let that happen if they were actually afraid of battling the entire galaxy at once, since that's exactly what they did in the end.

 

"Finally, if Shepard choose refusal, they will defeat this cycle but they won't be able to complete the next cycle (they are no longer a threat)"

 

Only because of more trickery and luck. This says nothing about the Reaper's power, it just has to do with it being hard to know where ants stashed every crumb in the galaxy (and every crumb could tell the ants how to build a machine to kill your entire race in one hit).

 

"So, they could claim themselves invincible and countless, but they behave exactly as if they are not."

 

No, they behave exactly as if they are. Invincible and countless beings let themselves get hit with the largest enemy force ever for the sake of convenience and time saving, invincible and countless beings save the war ending tactical capture of the Citadel for last (as in saving until after they don't even need it) because they know they can win even without owning the relay network, invincible and countless beings wage over a dozen fronts at a time without regard for fuel lines or anything and still win.

 

"They are very powerful, far more powerful than all the galaxy combined, no doubt, but they truly seem to have suffered (in the previous cycle, and in this one) relevant, possibly irrecoverable, blows."

 

What? Maybe 3 destroyers in the Prothean war, tops? MAYBE a capital ship, if they got unlucky? They barely lost anything against the Protheans, something even Javik expresses. The Protheans were about as threatening to the Reapers in terms of military power as a a few dozen infantry against a nuke.



#17
kal_reegar

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Well, you managed to be wrong about nearly everything. That's impressive, in its own right.

 

"can't afford another war like the one against the protheans"

 

You mean a total curbstomp where they lost so badly that a single Prothean surviving to the modern day was considered miraculous? Yeah, the Reapers lost sooooo much. They could have afforded a war even worse than that without difficulty, that was nothing for them.

 

"They showed inability to completely eradicate the prothean: scientist on Ilos, Vendetta, the beacon on Eden prime, Javik, the Mars archive, the crucible... the work wasn't done properly."

 

Because of trickery, and luck. No part of this had anything to do with Proteans being awesome, it was luck and trickery. Ilos was only not found and destroyed because the data about it HAPPENED TO GET DESTROYED BY COINCIDENCE BY THE REAPERS. If not for that LUCK, Ilos would have been destroyed without fanfare and there'd be no hope for Shepard's cycle. The trickery was because they were decent at hiding things, arguably better than they were at destroying. So yes, I give credit, Protheans are going at hiding. But that doesn't mean good at fighting Reapers, I'd be surprised if the Reapers lost more than a destroyer or 2.

 

"They showed to fear losses and to have the numbers to fight only on a limited number of fronts: they try in every way to gain access of the Mass relay (Sovering, Arrival: destroying a system one by one seems vital), the don't attack directly the Citadel (they use Cerberus infiltration) and they don't attack all races at the same time, allowing cooperation and aids between them."

 

Only a limited number of fronts? You're kidding, right? By the end of the game, the entire galaxy is their front. They're attacking every single world equally by that point, their numbers are darkening the sky of every world. They're carrying out over a dozen fronts at the same time, and making it look easy. Yes, they would prefer to make it even easier, but that's simply because even AIs would prefer an easier job to a harder one. Besides, tactics are tactics. Why wouldn't you want the tactical advantage to controlling the relay network, no matter how superior you are? They don't attack the Citadel directly because it's important to their entire strategy. Or have you forgotten that it's the key to the typical Reaper tactic of using it as a trap like they did with the Protheans? Of course they'd rather not damage it, or they'll have to rebuilt the damn thing and waste even more of their time and effort. You act like they're cowards, but it's the exact opposite. They lost their relay network and Citadel trap advantage, so what did they do? Decided they didn't need it and just showed up and started kicking as anyway, without hesitation. That isn't being scared, that's being without fear at all. If they acted like you said, they would have attacked the Citadel first since they would have decided a bit of extra work and effort is worth not the risk of losing. The fact that they let the Citadel be is a sign of their confidence, not fear. Cerberus was used because they might have been able to take it with far less damage than a bunch of Capital Ships showing up and just dumping a few million husks on the station, Cerberus could take it with much less collateral damage than Reapers could (because being gentle isn't something Reapers know how to do). Of course, when it's all over and they know they've basically won, they do take the Citadel. But that's another sign of confidence, they saved the tactically most important target until it wasn't even that important anymore, they took it only after they no longer needed it for their trap. Hell, they even did it without much damage after all (which is extremely impressive). The only reason they even bothered to capture it when they did was to be the bait to lure the entire galaxy into one massive trap that was the final battle, because they knew that everyone would try to get it back.

 

On that note, something else. They purposefully didn't shut down the relay network after taking it. Earth was a trap, the plan was to lure the entire galactic fleet and the Crucible to Earth, so they could bring all their enemies to them and save them the trouble. They could have shut down the relay network the second they got the Citadel, but they didn't. Them doing that would have been the "coward tactic" you seem to think they were using in ME3, but instead they decided to intentionally let the galactic races have an advantage and then purposefully let themselves get hit by the entire combined forces of the whole galactic community. Instead of shutting the network down, they left it up and waited for the most powerful anti-Reaper fleet in history show up for a total war offensive against them. That is NOT being afraid of losses, that shows a ludicrous amount of confidence. They know that the biggest fleet they've ever fought is coming, and they let it happen because they figure it will simply be more convenient and time saving for them. I repeat: They let themselves get hit by the biggest fleet ever just for the sake of saving time, because they were so confident that they'd win that they considered destroying that fleet easier than hunting them all down individually. This is the absolute opposite of what you said it was.

 

"They don't the strenght to sustain an effective "total war strategy"  in all the galaxy."

 

Hm, is that why they left their asses hanging out for the entire allied fleet in the final battle above Earth? Is that why they let the largest fleet ever assemble to destroy them, purposefully left the network up so said fleet can reach them, all for the intention of battling and winning the biggest total war strategy that the Reapers have ever been faced with? So they didn't have the strength to do so and they knew it, yet they let it happen with full knowledge of what was coming? That makes no sense. They would not have let that happen if they were actually afraid of battling the entire galaxy at once, since that's exactly what they did in the end.

 

"Finally, if Shepard choose refusal, they will defeat this cycle but they won't be able to complete the next cycle (they are no longer a threat)"

 

Only because of more trickery and luck. This says nothing about the Reaper's power, it just has to do with it being hard to know where ants stashed every crumb in the galaxy (and every crumb could tell the ants how to build a machine to kill your entire race in one hit).

 

"So, they could claim themselves invincible and countless, but they behave exactly as if they are not."

 

No, they behave exactly as if they are. Invincible and countless beings let themselves get hit with the largest enemy force ever for the sake of convenience and time saving, invincible and countless beings save the war ending tactical capture of the Citadel for last (as in saving until after they don't even need it) because they know they can win even without owning the relay network, invincible and countless beings wage over a dozen fronts at a time without regard for fuel lines or anything and still win.

 

"They are very powerful, far more powerful than all the galaxy combined, no doubt, but they truly seem to have suffered (in the previous cycle, and in this one) relevant, possibly irrecoverable, blows."

 

What? Maybe 3 destroyers in the Prothean war, tops? MAYBE a capital ship, if they got unlucky? They barely lost anything against the Protheans, something even Javik expresses. The Protheans were about as threatening to the Reapers in terms of military power as a a few dozen infantry against a nuke.

 

we can discuss sci-fi strategy all day long, could be fun, but useless.

assume whatever you wish.

 

From this three facts

1. they stared this cycle a lot earlier than the previous one

2. they did not attack immediately the citadel and shut down the mass relay network, but they carefully plan the attack, while suffering heavy losses on Palaven, not being able to prevent Krogan coming to help from another system, losing the geth on rannoch, proving unable to to easily overcome a well organized colony such a Ilium etc

3. even if shepard chose refusal ending and the crucible is destroyed -> they no longer represent a threat for the next cycle

 

I deduce that the reapers are not countless and invincible.

You can deduce the opposite, of course.

We don't know their exact number, only the minimum (based on how may reapers all together we see during me3 final battle and/or me2 ending) and the maximum (age of the unvivers/medium life span of galactic civilization * medium number of advanced specis per cycle).

Every number in between is valid.



#18
andy6915

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we can discuss sci-fi strategy all day long, could be fun, but useless.
assume whatever you wish.
 
From this three facts
1. they stared this cycle a lot earlier than the previous one
2. they did not attack immediately the citadel and shut down the mass relay network, but they carefully plan the attack, while suffering heavy losses on Palaven, not being able to prevent Krogan coming to help from another system, losing the geth on rannoch, proving unable to to easily overcome a well organized colony such a Ilium etc
3. even if shepard chose refusal ending and the crucible is destroyed -> they no longer represent a threat for the next cycle
 
I deduce that the reapers are not countless and invincible.
You can deduce the opposite, of course.
We don't know their exact number, only the minimum (based on how may reapers all together we see during me3 final battle and/or me2 ending) and the maximum (age of the unvivers/medium life span of galactic civilization * medium number of advanced specis per cycle).
Every number in between is valid.

 
"1. they stared this cycle a lot earlier than the previous one"
 
No they didn't. I assume you mean the Rachni? They were being used by Leviathans to try and strike at the Reapers, the actual Reapers didn't start using them until ME3. Especially considering Rachni queens are immune to indoctrination, if you recall. She hears the indoctrination in ME3, but says they have absolutely no hold. She's not lying, she's never indoctrinated at any point. The Rachni wars weren't Sovereign waging a proxy war on the galaxy, they were the Leviathans waging a proxy war on the Reapers by making the Rachni take the Citadel and do what the Protheans did and disable the Citadel relay. If you try and argue this, I will remind you that Rachni queens are immune to indoctrination. If they're immune, then how did the Reapers control the queen to make her attack the Council races? The answer is that they didn't, only Leviathans can pull off controlling a Rachni queen. Or did you have some other point of evidence for this that isn't the Rachni?
 
"2. they did not attack immediately the citadel and shut down the mass relay network, but they carefully plan the attack, while suffering heavy losses on Palaven, not being able to prevent Krogan coming to help from another system, losing the geth on rannoch, proving unable to to easily overcome a well organized colony such a Ilium etc"
 
Yet attacking the Citadel would have been effortless, they held off on it out of pure confidence. With the Turians held up defending their own world, just a dozen Capital Ships could easily have taken the Citadel. So I don't know why you think them holding off on it is showing weakness, since it actually shows strength to not do the effortless tactical move that would have basically won the war for them.
 
"Heavy losses"... They've lost maybe a dozen, 2 dozen at most, Capital Ships in the battle of Palaven. Impressive? Yes. But they have literally thousands of them, 2 dozen out of thousands is hardly "heavy losses". Themikefest's math is pretty clear and thought out, they had a minimum of 12,000 Capital Ships at the start of ME3. Even if the Turians took out 500, that's still not even breaking the 10% mark. Or even the 5% mark. How the heck can you call losing less than 5% of your Capital Ships "heavy losses"? Not to mention it's not like that's their total number. They also have about 4 or 5 times that number for Destroyers. Are you one of those "we could have won conventionally" people? You're sounding like it.

 

They didn't prevent the Krogan because they didn't care that much. Again, another sign of confidence. They could have just sent about 100 Capital Ships to Tuchanka and utterly destroyed the entire world from orbit (easy considering Krogan are demilitarized and have no fleet or warships to even protect themselves from a orbital assault) with nary an effort. Instead, they sent a single Destroyer with a gimmick of poisoning the atmosphere. They didn't consider them enough of a threat to even bother sending a real force to Tuchanka, they didn't even consider them worth a single Capital Ship. This isn't a sign of fear, it's a sign of them not seeing Tuchanka and Krogan to be threatening enough to even bother putting in real effort. Real effort is Palaven, sending literally hundreds of Capital Ships at once. Not caring is Tuchanka, sending a single Destroyer and not even really caring when that plan failed. If they cared, they would have just glassed the planet as soon as the Destroyer failed. Instead, they basically decided that they'll take care of them later and that they weren't worth the effort of killing... A prospect that would tick Krogan off pretty bad considering their worst insult is saying someone isn't worth killing, but that's exactly how the Reapers see them. A few dozen ground forces and a single Destroyer is not the Reapers being afraid or taking them seriously, and not taking them seriously means they didn't even see them as a real threat.

 

...Same for the Quarian Destroyer, actually. They saw Quarians pointless to bother putting much effort against either. The Quarians could easily have been wiped out, the Reapers weren't "afraid" of them. Hell, the very idea is laughable. The Quarians can't even take out a single Geth dreadnaught, so a single Capital ship would have decimated them. A single Capital Ship can be spared, they have over 12,000 of them. Them not sending even one tells you how much of a threat they considered the Quarians. Like the Krogan, they figured they weren't worth much effort since they were a non-threat. 'Take them out with a gimmick if possible, since they're not worth even a flexing of our military strength.' is how the Reapers saw them and the Krogan.

 

The only reason for Ilium is that they're trying to not just destroy the whole world. It's a massive population center, they don't want to just glass it. So they try to take it gently, in a way that lets them harvest the population. Do you not get this? You seem to be missing a lot of factors in your analysis here.

 

"I deduce that the reapers are not countless and invincible."

 

And I declare that you're objectively wrong.

 

"You can deduce the opposite, of course."

 

I think you meant "prove the opposite", which I did.

 

"We don't know their exact number, only the minimum (based on how may reapers all together we see during me3 final battle and/or me2 ending) and the maximum (age of the unvivers/medium life span of galactic civilization * medium number of advanced specis per cycle)."

 

We know how long they've been at it, how many Reapers they make per cycle, word of god telling us how many Reapers are typically lost during a harvest of the galaxy. That's more than enough to get a really goddamn close estimate.

 

The Reapers only failing, as you might surmise from this post, was their overconfidence. The only reason the galaxy won is because the Reapers kept considering different races as not worth real effort and not bothering to wipe out things and people that they didn't think would make a difference in the scheme of things. They were cocky, arrogant, overconfident. If they had taken us seriously, it would have been over.



#19
Iakus

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1) How many Capital ships exist

 

2) With how much force does the reaper beam hit? (I read its 125-450 kiloton) 

 

3) How are destroyers made?

 

4) Reaper damage inconsistency... So in the last battle for earth a turian and an alliance dreadnought/cruiser are seen dismantling a reaper in seconds... But on rannoch the ENTIRE quarian fleet took like 4 pricision strikes on a 150m destroyer! Hell he even survived for a bit after that... And in ME1 sovereign is seen brushing off attacks from the entire fith fleet and what was left of the citadel fleet... Hell he even colided with a turian cruiser and took NO DAMAGE... 

1) potentially as many as 20,000.  Assuming 50,000 years is an "average" for a cycle, and one capital ship is made per cycle, and they've been doing this for a billion years.  They do occasionally lose one, and it's possible that not every cycle results in a Sovereign-class Reaper.  Plus there is every indication that the Reapers have been around more than a billion years (the Leviathan of Dis was estimated to be that old, and it wasn't the oldest Reaper; Harbinger is)

 

Even so, 10,000 Sovereigns is not, I think, a bad guess

 

2) The codex says they can one-shot a dreadnought, so I guess the answer is "as hard as the plot demands"

 

3) Destroyers are made from the "lesser" races in a cycle.  One is made into a Sovereign, the rest destroyers.

 

4) Putting too much thought into ME3 just causes headaches and grumpiness.

 

What'll rally bake your noodle is how repeated shots to the surface of Rannoch not only didn't kill Shepard, but didn't create an environmental catastrophe comparable to the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs.


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#20
themikefest

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The reapers win by numbers alone.



#21
themikefest

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I will just quote myself.

 

Here is the number how many reapers there might be at the start of ME3. I also put a link to this same post in the post I made above

 

Spoiler

 

Here's a post explaining how many casualties the reapers may of suffered before Shepard used the crucible.

 

Spoiler


#22
kal_reegar

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"1. they stared this cycle a lot earlier than the previous one"
 
No they didn't. I assume you mean the Rachni?

 

no, I mean that the protehan tech was far more advanced than in this cycle, rachni war or not

the species of this cycle barely understand what a mass relay is.

the prothean build a mass relay on Ilos. The also made star explode... there is no comparison. Javik confirmed that they were far more advanced, they reached far higher level of knowledge and learning (see genetic memory etc)

 

It's like attacking a tech-level civilization like modern united states, and after that attacking a tech-leve civilization like 1800 British Empire.

 

 

 

 

 
Yet attacking the Citadel would have been effortless, they held off on it out of pure confidence. With the Turians held up defending their own world, just a dozen Capital Ships could easily have taken the Citadel. So I don't know why you think them holding off on it is showing weakness, since it actually shows strength to not do the effortless tactical move that would have basically won the war for them.
 
"Heavy losses"... They've lost maybe a dozen, 2 dozen at most, Capital Ships in the battle of Palaven.

 

 

reapers are made from harvest species. Capital ships are made from the "best" species (so each cycle they can create... let's say 3-4 new capital ships? The other lesser specis becamo destroyers). Sometimes, no capital ships are made (see prothean).

If they star to lose dozen of capital ships (in single battles, like Palaven), and each cycle is more and more "prepared" to receive them (see liara's beacon, eden prima beacon, the crucible, thanix etc) they will be unable to turn the tide.

 

They need to be very careful about numbers, and avoid useless losses (a frontal attack to the citadel is out of discussion, for example). They could also damage the catalyst, but that's another issue.

 

 

 

"I deduce that the reapers are not countless and invincible."

 

And I declare that you're objectively wrong.

 

"You can deduce the opposite, of course."

 

I think you meant "prove the opposite", which I did.

 

:D

 

 

We know how long they've been at it, how many Reapers they make per cycle, word of god telling us how many Reapers are typically lost during a harvest of the galaxy. That's more than enough to get a really goddamn close estimate.

 

 

1. I've probably  missed this information... how long? How old are the Leviathans?

2. word of god? tweets from casey Hudson? Irrelevant. Only in game info are relevant.

 

 

 

The Reapers only failing, as you might surmise from this post, was their overconfidence. The only reason the galaxy won is because the Reapers kept considering different races as not worth real effort and not bothering to wipe out things and people that they didn't think would make a difference in the scheme of things. They were cocky, arrogant, overconfident. If they had taken us seriously, it would have been over.

 

 

I'm perfectly ok with this interpretation, but sorry, you cannot prove it.

The numbers of the reapers, the number of their losses through time, the difference between harvesting a ready cycle and harvesting an unready cycle etc. is unkown.



#23
andy6915

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no, I mean that the protehan tech was far more advanced than in this cycle, rachni war or not

the species of this cycle barely understand what a mass relay is.

the prothean build a mass relay on Ilos. The also made star explode... there is no comparison. Javik confirmed that they were far more advanced, they reached far higher level of knowledge and learning (see genetic memory etc)

 

It's like attacking a tech-level civilization like modern united states, and after that attacking a tech-leve civilization like 1800 British Empire.

 

 

 

 

 

reapers are made from harvest species. Capital ships are made from the "best" species (so each cycle they can create... let's say 3-4 new capital ships? The other lesser specis becamo destroyers). Sometimes, no capital ships are made (see prothean).

If they star to lose dozen of capital ships (in single battles, like Palaven), and each cycle is more and more "prepared" to receive them (see liara's beacon, eden prima beacon, the crucible, thanix etc) they will be unable to turn the tide.

 

They need to be very careful about numbers, and avoid useless losses (a frontal attack to the citadel is out of discussion, for example). They could also damage the catalyst, but that's another issue.

 

 

 

:D

 

 

1. I've probably  missed this information... how long? How old are the Leviathans?

2. word of god? tweets from casey Hudson? Irrelevant. Only in game info are relevant.

 

 

 

 

I'm perfectly ok with this interpretation, but sorry, you cannot prove it.

The numbers of the reapers, the number of their losses through time, the difference between harvesting a ready cycle and harvesting an unready cycle etc. is unkown.

 

Paragraph by paragraph

 

1.That makes no sense. You said the Reapers started their cycle early this time, as in they didn't wait as long as usual before starting their harvest. Correct? People that say this always use the Rachni as proof.

 

2. Letting there be multiple CSs per cycle is actually more generous than the math I used. Are you trying to hurt your own point? It is true though that each cycle has done better. I didn't dispute that. What I dispute is you thinking that means the Reapers aren't as much of a threat as the game makes them out to be, when they really are the near invincible and seemingly infinite enemy we expected.

 

3 ...The Leviathans are older than the Reapers. Do I really need to explain how the Leviathans are older than their own creations?

 

As for the rest, you clearly haven't checked the math I referenced. It was linked earlier, but you seem to have no read it. It's pretty rock-solid reasoning and math to me.

 

http://forum.bioware...4#entry19018526

 

edit: I'll just save you the trouble and quote it directly.

 


Yes they have a lot. I would also include processing ships and troop transport ships. The scene showing the reapers approaching the Milky Way, after the suicide mission, shows what looks to be processing ships and troop transport ships along with other reaper ships
 
A post on the first page mentions that Casey Hudson says that only a few destroyers are lost each cycle while one  capital ship is lost every few cycles.
 
I will use the number 3 to represent few.
 
That means that 6 667 capitals ships have been destroyed if I use the 50 000 year cycle over 1 billion years and 60 000 destroyers are destroyed in the last 1 billion years.
 
So when the reapers arrive at the beginning of our cycle they have about 13 333 capital ships plus destroyers, processing ships and troop transport ships
 
Of course I have no idea how long the 50 000 year cycle has been happening. Leviathan mentions that the intelligence directed the reapers to build the relays so the number from above most likely would be lower. If the reapers have been around longer than 1 billion years, then the number above most likely would be higher. At the moment its just guessing until Bioware says how long the 50 000 year cycle has been happening
 
With that many destroyed over that period of time I would say more of them would've been discovered in space. As far as I know the only two that are discovered  is the one the Batarians found and the one Shepard boards to get the IFF.
 
Here's some possibilities. The reapers destroy whatever is left of the dead reaper so no one will find it and  study it. The reapers reuse them to replenish whatever losses they encountered during the harvest. Or they could just rebuild the dead reaper
 
Lets say Shepard picks refuse letting the reapers harvest us. It would take them a fair amount of time to replenish their losses.
 
If using the 13 333 number from above, there is no way we have a chance to defeat them without the crucible. Had the reapers not been stupid in ME3, the crucible wouldn't of been built. With that number the reapers have, the only way to defeat them is to find the plans for the crucible, build it and then use it before the reapers enter the galaxy


#24
Jukaga

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I would've preffered there to only be about 50 reapers or so to be honest, with a big emphasis on indoctrination as a way for the reapers to win. This makes it make more sense that Sovereign didn't open the citadel relay early on by using a regular relay: He wanted the Rachni and Krogan armies to use in order to help the reapers as there weren't enough reapers to just let them attack so quickly, and that Shepard destroying the projects on Noveria and Virmire pressured Sovereign into using the conduit too soon.

I don't really like the idea of the reapers using the "best" races to create one more reaper each cycle, because it led to the "humans are special" narrative.

 

Only 50 means a conventional victory is more than possible, it becomes likely at that point.



#25
iM3GTR

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Only 50 means a conventional victory is more than possible, it becomes likely at that point.


Maybe a couple hundred then, although that would allow the theory that vigil said to come true; when he says something like "Saren maybe just the most visible pawn of Sovereign. He may have been planning this for centuries..."