124 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

I've started this thread because - disastrous OP aside - the TW3 comparison thread spawned a very interest conversation about how one should design a sidequest. DA:I is an oft-cited comparison now, because ME:A will be going open world. 

 

So, in the spirit of keeping this open for discussion, what would you like to see in terms of sidequests?

 

To frame the discussion, I'll state my own view: Bioware is awful at creating "minor" side-quests. Their "minor" quests have always been very uninspired in their design, basically reducing to Kill X or Find Y. In the past, see e.g. KOTOR or DA:O, Bioware hid this design by throwing in a lot of dialogue. A great recent example is DA2 - the quests are awful from a design POV: just waves of mooks to murder, and potentially finding a random item in a tiny recycled map. But bad quest design is not one of the many criticisms of DA2, because Bioware hid it behind oodles of dialogue. 

 

 

[Spooch]

I think ME3 actually handled side quests well. All of the ones where you met former squadmates were pretty fun. Grissom Academy, the rachni one, the Ardat-Yakshi monastery. I'd like to see more of those kind of missions.

[SKAR]

I think ME3 actually handled side quests well. All of the ones where you met former squadmates were pretty fun. Grissom Academy, the rachni one, the Ardat-Yakshi monastery. I'd like to see more of those kind of missions.

so do I.

[Seraphim24]

I still think even if they were somewhat insignificant or kill X they count for a lot.

 

I bet you could measure sales by the quality and quantity of side quests, in some ways.

 

As I stated I believe SWTOR class quests (or zone quests if you prefer) essentially are all side quests and greatly enrich the game.

 

Imagine sidequests for a "Thieves guild" in DA:I or "Mage tower" that completely takes you away from the drumbeat of the main quest? Very cool.

 

Or in ME, "Biotic path" that takes you to a monastery in a remote planet, etc.

[SKAR]

More loyalty missions are going to be in play.

[Addictress]

I think ME3 actually handled side quests well. All of the ones where you met former squadmates were pretty fun. Grissom Academy, the rachni one, the Ardat-Yakshi monastery. I'd like to see more of those kind of missions.

Agreed. I finished a new ME3 playthrough yesterday. Even now after having played all tw3, I was surprised ME3's side missions were actually quite good.  Even the 'dumb' fetch quest ones on the Citadel weren't nearly as bad as the Hinterlands for some odd reason... perhaps because they were all jammed in smaller Citadel floor levels and it didn't seem as much a waste of space. Also, planet-scanning and running away from reaper ships in the galaxy map mini-game was kind of... fun and addicting.... *unpopular opinion*

[Spooch]

Agreed. I finished a new ME3 playthrough yesterday. Even now after having played all tw3, I was surprised ME3's side missions were actually quite good.  Even the 'dumb' fetch quest ones on the Citadel weren't nearly as bad as the Hinterlands for some odd reason... perhaps because they were all jammed in smaller Citadel floor levels and it didn't seem as much a waste of space. Also, planet-scanning and running away from reaper ships in the galaxy map mini-game was kind of... fun and addicting.... *unpopular opinion*

Yeah, I actually kinda liked the scanning in ME3. I liked when I found war assets on the planets because it felt like I was building my army up and they had little bits of lore in their descriptions. Plus having to evade the reapers was kinda intense.

[KirkyX]

As you point out, BioWare have historically hidden relatively formulaic quest design behind stories and dialogue, and while I'd certainly appreciate a little more actual gameplay variety... I'd honestly be totally fine with a return to that 'hide the fetch quest behind characters, dialogue and a story' status-quo. DA: I's preponderance of essentially story-free filler quests is, as I'm sure came up in the other thread, perhaps its greatest flaw.

 

In truth, even if DA: I's filler had been somewhat more interesting from a gameplay perspective - as a (terrible) example, say the shards had run away from you, Assassin's Creed-style, leading to a sick parkour display from Inquisitor Ezio - I still don't think I'd have found them as compelling as a series of more formulaic quests that provided me with the opportunity to talk to characters and experience an actual story--particularly if, as is generally the case in the very best side-quests, that story branched and changed depending upon my actions. This is something a decent amount of BioWare's pre-DA: I side-quests, and - to draw the inevitable comparison - quite a few of The Witcher 3's side-quests, did wonderfully.

 

Environmental storytelling can be good, but DA: I tended to use it in instances where dialogue-and-character-based storytelling would've made more sense. Oh, and the notespam was just awful--there was far too much of it, for one thing, and the notes themselves were almost always utterly uninteresting.

 

The way TW3 would frequently blur the line between side-quest and main quest, and even side-quest and Witcher contract - you quickly learn in that game that Witcher contracts are by no means always a matter of, 'take contract, track monster, kill monster' - is another idea worth taking some inspiration from, I think.

 

...

 

I suppose what I'm saying is, I'd generally rather a quest had a more interesting story - told through character interactions, dialogue trees and so on - than a lot of gameplay variety--though, of course, both would be appreciated in an ideal world.

[JamieCOTC]

I think ME3 actually handled side quests well. All of the ones where you met former squadmates were pretty fun. Grissom Academy, the rachni one, the Ardat-Yakshi monastery. I'd like to see more of those kind of missions.

Those were great. Just about every other side or mini quest was weak in ME3. Some were good for some easter eggs I guess, but that's about it. What I would love to see is something like a combination of ME and ME2 N7 quests. ME2 had some interesting ones that really brought a variety of scenery and style creating their own little voiceless stories. ME on the other hand had some good side quests that were marred by the cookie cutter structures and aimless meandering. Throw in one or two missions similar to ME3's N7 missions (horde mode in SP) and that might work.

[In Exile]

As you point out, BioWare have historically hidden relatively formulaic quest design behind stories and dialogue, and while I'd certainly appreciate a little more actual gameplay variety... I'd honestly be totally fine with a return to that 'hide the fetch quest behind characters, dialogue and a story' status-quo. DA: I's preponderance of essentially story-free filler quests is, as I'm sure came up in the other thread, perhaps its greatest flaw.

 

In truth, even if DA: I's filler had been somewhat more interesting from a gameplay perspective - as a (terrible) example, say the shards had run away from you, Assassin's Creed-style, leading to a sick parkour display from Inquisitor Ezio - I still don't think I'd have found them as compelling as a series of more formulaic quests that provided me with the opportunity to talk to characters and experience an actual story, particularly if, as is generally the case in the very best side-quests, that story branched and changed depending upon my actions. This is something a decent amount of BioWare's pre-DA: I side-quests, and - to draw the inevitable comparison - quite a few of The Witcher 3's side-quests, did wonderfully.

 

The way TW3 would frequently blur the line between side-quest and main quest, and even side-quest and Witcher contract - you quickly learn in that game that Witcher contracts are by no means always a matter of, 'take contract, track monster, kill monster' - is another idea worth taking some inspiration from, I think.

 

...

 

I suppose what I'm saying is, I'd generally rather a quest had a more interesting story - told through character interactions, dialogue trees and so on - than a lot of gameplay variety--though, of course, both would be appreciated in an ideal world.

 

I think that's fair. But Bioware has a pretty significant issue here: they have companions. And companions have very expensive voiced and cinematic dialogue requirements that take away from the same resources that would go to quests. Of course, Bioware could just invest more to create the same AAA production values generally as, say, TW3. But that might not be cost-justified. The alternative is to find ways to save costs.

 

In DA:I, they tried to do that by not having cinematic cutscenes all the time, and trying to tell more stories by way of archeology. That was a flop. This is why I think - if they're facing the same cost curve - all they can do is have better design. 

[Malanek]

I think it's essential that if you want to have a lot of successful side quests then you have to have a non-urgent main plot (or at least a lot of periods in which it is non-urgent). I'm not going to want to do anything else if the fate of the galaxy is at stake and needs action.

 

I also don't want to see too many sidequests at once. I can't remember 20 different rapidly changing plots at once. I personally think having no more than 3-4 sidequests of any significant detail is the most you want active at any stage. 

[KirkyX]

I think that's fair. But Bioware has a pretty significant issue here: they have companions. And companions have very expensive voiced and cinematic dialogue requirements that take away from the same resources that would go to quests. Of course, Bioware could just invest more to create the same AAA production values generally as, say, TW3. But that might not be cost-justified. The alternative is to find ways to save costs.

 

In DA:I, they tried to do that by not having cinematic cutscenes all the time, and trying to tell more stories by way of archeology. That was a flop. This is why I think - if they're facing the same cost curve - all they can do is have better design. 

Ah, but I just don't think better (gameplay) quest design would ultimately make all that much of a difference to the kinds of people who were most put-out by DA: I's approach. For us - or, well, me - the issue was simply that it never felt like we'd been given a compelling reason to actually do any of these activities they were putting in-front of us. Even if they address the formulaic gameplay, that issue will remain: if you can't give me a story to follow and characters to interact with, I'm simply not going to feel motivated to complete the activity.

 

If BioWare can't deliver that, a massive open world, and a squad of developed companions with the resource constraints of modern video game development - a perfectly understandable issue - then I'd suggest that one of the three has to go. And I don't think it should be the companions or the more developed storytelling. I'd have absolutely no issue with a return to the old BioWare formula of giving us a map with four or five 'hub' locations that we can visit in whichever order we like, with one main story thread and a variety of side-quests per hub. Of course, we know Andromeda very much won't be doing this, but this debate is largely hypothetical, right?

 

To be clear, I'm not pulling the whole, 'Do it the way I like it, or else!' thing here--I just want to explain my position, what matters to me in a BioWare game - in RPGs generally, to be honest - and what doesn't. In all honesty, as my having jumped from BioWare franchise to BioWare franchise over the years demonstrates, I'm really not that fussed by the gameplay in general provided that it's functional--from Baldur's Gate onwards, they've gone through at least three or four almost completely different basic gameplay systems, but I've kept coming back because it wasn't any of those systems that drew me to BioWare in the first place.

[Malanek]

Ah, but I just don't think better (gameplay) quest design would ultimately make all that much of a difference to the kinds of people who were most put-out by DA: I's approach. For us - or, well, me - the issue was simply that it never felt like we'd been given a compelling reason to actually do any of these activities they were putting in-front of us. Even if they address the formulaic gameplay, that issue will remain: if you can't give me a story to follow and characters to interact with, I'm simply not going to feel motivated to complete the activity.

 

I agree. To be immersed, I need a purpose. I have no interest in wandering around a bigass map looking for new quest icons, especially when I have actually been given something else to do by a character. I suspect I only saw about 10% of the DAI content because unless I needed to I wouldn't even visit a region.

[Sanunes]

Overall aside from the "scan a planet return to quest giver" quests I didn't mind the ones in Mass Effect 3.  I would like to have to land on a planet and do something to complete a quest instead of only taking a moment or two to get the item I need.  Like the ones in Mass Effect 2 that were not part of the companion quests, but you had a small area to clear and then looted an item, I guess that would also be like the quests that used the multiplayer maps in Mass Effect 3 as well.

 

Honestly the side quests I had issues with in Dragon Age: Inquisition weren't even quests in my opinion they were gathering tasks such as collecting all the shards. Mass Effect 1 was guilty of this as well with the Asari Writings, minerals, and dog tag quests it just wasn't as bad since there was only four of them.

 

My favorite type of quest involves the entire zone you are in and dynamically changes are you are working your way through the zone such as the main quest in Emprise du Lion in Dragon Age: Inquisition and if there are a lot of planets that aren't going to be part of the main storyline that would be nice to have as well.

[10K]

Because this is going to be an expansive universe and exploration will be a huge factor in Andromeda. I hope they have lots of side things to fill those spaces; not just collecting elfroot. I don't know what EAware should do, I could say just do what Witcher does because it works. But Eaware is a different team with different talents. I just hope whatever they do, it doesn't turn out like Inquisition; sidequest were dull, exploration was meaningless, and the environments were empty.

[Spooch]

Do you know what would be cool? Quest chains that are separate stories that run alongside the main plot. Say you hear about some space pirates holding some people hostage, you go free the hostages but some of the pirates get away. A couple of main story missions later you hear a report that the pirates are up to no good again. I think it would help the side quests be even more memorable than if they were completely separate from every other mission.

[goishen]

I'm gonna toss out a real popular opinion.  ME2 planet scanning wasn't that bad.   All you do is go to rich planets, scan them till they drop in resource level, move on.  I'm also in favor of bringing back loyalty quests for your squad mates. 

[Spooch]

I'm gonna toss out a real popular opinion.  ME2 planet scanning wasn't that bad.   All you do is go to rich planets, scan them till they drop in resource level, move on.  I'm also in favor of bringing back loyalty quests for your squad mates. 

Scanning wasn't that bad, it was just kinda boring. Also yeah, loyalty missions rock!

[KirkyX]

I agree. To be immersed, I need a purpose. I have no interest in wandering around a bigass map looking for new quest icons, especially when I have actually been given something else to do by a character. I suspect I only saw about 10% of the DAI content because unless I needed to I wouldn't even visit a region.

I made a point of visiting absolutely everywhere, in the resolute hope that I'd eventually stumble across something meaningful out there... Sadly, I can't recall any particularly notable instances of such, with the possible exception of some of the stuff in the Jaws of Hakkon DLC. Ultimately, almost all the worthwhile quests and characters in that game could be found/launched from Skyhold/Haven.

 

goishen, on 21 Jun 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'm gonna toss out a real popular opinion.  ME2 planet scanning wasn't that bad.   All you do is go to rich planets, scan them till they drop in resource level, move on.  I'm also in favor of bringing back loyalty quests for your squad mates. 

 

 

I found the planet scanning pretty tedious, to be honest, but I'd like to echo your appreciation for the loyalty (and recruitment) quests. Mass Effect 2's my favourite game in the trilogy, in spite of the planet scanning and the (mostly) go-nowhere main plot, purely because it's the game that devoted the most time to compelling, character-driven story-telling. I'm fairly sure it's actually been confirmed - or leaked? I forget - that loyalty missions are coming back for Andromeda, which is just fantastic news.

 

(Oh, and irritating Paragon/Renegade persuasion system aside, ME2 had by far the best dialogue wheel/roleplay system. It suffered from neither ME1's unfortunate habit of having two options on the wheel lead to the same dialogue, nor ME3's problem with... Well, having pared the dialogue wheel down to such an extreme that actually roleplaying Shepard as you'd been able to in the previous two games became pretty much impossible. Seriously, it felt like Shepard had more autodialogue than some of the NPCs in that game, and that autodialogue would frequently have Shepard express set opinions on issues that we'd been able to choose her stance on in previous games. Genuinely, my biggest problem with that game by far - well beyond the ending, Cerberus, Kai Leng and everything else - was that shitting dialogue wheel.)

[AlanC9]

I think that's fair. But Bioware has a pretty significant issue here: they have companions. And companions have very expensive voiced and cinematic dialogue requirements that take away from the same resources that would go to quests. Of course, Bioware could just invest more to create the same AAA production values generally as, say, TW3. But that might not be cost-justified. The alternative is to find ways to save costs.

My pick for cost reduction would be a shorter, smaller gam, pretty much along the lines of what KirkyX is saying above. But it looks like that one's off the table for the moment.

[Addictress]

I kind of want less reliance on guns for literally everything. Like how Shepard had to... shoot? the viral infection in the Geth consensus was kind of lame. Also the fact that Shepard had to shoot the destroy or control columns on the Citadel at the very end.... seemed an unnecessary forcing of using guns just because.

[Red Panda]

Why not go with radiant quest design from Skyrim? It has all that narrative with infinite story. After all, it revolutionized sidequest design.

 

In less sarcastic terms, fewer longer, well-written sidequests can be just as powerful as many sidequests.

[Sanunes]

I kind of want less reliance on guns for literally everything. Like how Shepard had to... shoot? the viral infection in the Geth consensus was kind of lame. Also the fact that Shepard had to shoot the destroy or control columns on the Citadel at the very end.... seemed an unnecessary forcing of using guns just because.

 

As would I, but unfortunately the people that buy games seem to be focused on combat and until people show they are interested in more then that I just don't see a change in direction.  Games like Gone Home or even the Telltale games don't reach a market that Mass Effect would need to, maybe a game like No Man's Sky will show there is an interest until there is a major acceptance of people I can't see it happening.  Even looking at the idea of Watch Dogs playing a hacker you still gain all the powers of a super spy by being able to hack/stealth/shoot/drive instead of focusing on the role of being a hacker.

[Addictress]

As would I, but unfortunately the people that buy games seem to be focused on combat and until people show they are interested in more then that I just don't see a change in direction. Games like Gone Home or even the Telltale games don't reach a market that Mass Effect would need to, maybe a game like No Man's Sky will show there is an interest until there is a major acceptance of people I can't see it happening. Even looking at the idea of Watch Dogs playing a hacker you still gain all the powers of a super spy by being able to hack/stealth/shoot/drive instead of focusing on the role of being a hacker.

Card mini-games, Mako racing mini-games, solving riddles like in the temple of sacred ashes in DA:O, swimming and finding the gold fish in tw3 b&w.....these are examples of not using the weapon primarily.

[Sanunes]

Card mini-games, Mako racing mini-games, solving riddles like in the temple of sacred ashes in DA:O, swimming and finding the gold fish in tw3 b&w.....these are examples of not using the weapon primarily.

 

Fair enough.