210 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I think Shepard deserved to know, yes. For a simple reason: Shepard was the spearhead of the operation to defeat the Reapers and save the galaxy. That is an extreme amount of stress, which we see hit Shepard more and more throughout the game. Thinking that the galaxy's only hope is the Crucible makes them think that if they fail, everyone will die. Knowing about the Andromeda Initiative would show Shepard that not everything is hinging on them, that there will be people who will survive. They may not need to know the details, but knowing of the premise would definitely help with Shepard's mental state which would help with the war effort.

It's not important what anyone deserves. Anyone who isn't actively involved with it is a potential liability, even the great Shepard, who could be in proximity to a Cerberus spy. It's certainly not the responsibility of anyone involved to risk anything just to put someone's mind at ease, which in itself is dubious. I know for certain that I wouldn't feel better knowing that a group of explorers were secretly ducking out before the whirlwind strikes.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think Shepard deserved to know, yes. For a simple reason: Shepard was the spearhead of the operation to defeat the Reapers and save the galaxy. That is an extreme amount of stress, which we see hit Shepard more and more throughout the game. Thinking that the galaxy's only hope is the Crucible makes them think that if they fail, everyone will die. Knowing about the Andromeda Initiative would show Shepard that not everything is hinging on them, that there will be people who will survive. They may not need to know the details, but knowing of the premise would definitely help with Shepard's mental state which would help with the war effort. 

 

I have never seen this line of argument ever used by anyone who actually deal with classified operation as a part of their day-to-day job.

 

Aside that the galaxy might not know if the Arcs survive- if the game starts with an escape from disaster, such as the first hours of ME3 and the Reaper invasion, then people might be under the impression that the Arcs might have been destroyed by the Reapers- classified information is not released merely to provide a placebo effect. It defeats the purpose of it being classified in the first place.

[AlanC9]

Now, maybe you could say that she did know and also chose not to say anything to Shep but especially for a Shep who romanced her, I find that also extremely unlikely (especially give how often Shep can express doubt and despair in LotSB and ME3 and how much Liara is shown to trust him/her). IMO, they'd have to come up with really good explanation for why she apparently didn't hear word one about this project.

Maybe she doesn't know the fleet was successfully launched? No sense telling Shepard about an apparent failure.

Edit: ninja'd.

[sjsharp2011]

Assuming the Ark project was a failsafe in the event that we lose the Reaper war then no, because knowledge of such a project would be on a need to know basis and Shep doesn't need to know.

 

Even if I were in Liara's place as the shadowbroker and thus there was like a 99.99% chance that I knew about it, I'd probably still not tell Shep about it in the event of indoctrination which while it doesn't happen is still something you should be safe against since everybody else who comes into contact with the Reapers ends up that way.

Indeed if I were in Liara's shoes I wouldn't tell Shep about it either besides Shep had enough on their plate dealing with  the reapers I would just keep it to the point and only tell them what they need to know so Shep can keep doing what they're doing. That's assuming Liara knew about it but given her position as the Shadowbroker I'd say there was a good chance she knew. She was the brainy member of the team after all.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Reapers are a secret pre-ME3. Why would most of the people on the Ark know about them? You would only need the main crew to know. The rest could be oblivious until after the Arks leave.

 

It's not that the Reapers are secret, but that the Council discredits Shepard's claims and insists they're not real. There are believers, but they tend to be a minority as the official stance is 'nothing to get worried about.

 

If the Ark is revealed, then that could/would be a tacit admission that the reason for them- the Reapers- are also real. That could cause massive panic, as suddenly the uber threat is real after all and now the question of who gets to survive becomes relevant.

 

 

 

I agree, but it won't stop many, many people from trying to get on for X, Y, and Z reasons.

Won't stop nutters from trying to sabotage it, either.

 

'We could use those resources to try and beat the Reapers conventionally!!1!1!'

[Kabooooom]

He is literally making decisions that can kill entire species and seal the fate of the Milk Way galaxy. Knowing that there is at least some chance of survivor even if he fails seems to be a very pertinent informationf for Shepard to have.

Granted, but in my opinion, it wouldn't be worth the risk. Any info they give to Shep could end up in the Reapers hands (tentacles?). He is too exposed, too vulnerable. It would be strategically a poor decision to tell him.

Does he deserve to know? Yes. Probably more than anyone in the galaxy. But the risk might mean failure of the Ark mission, death of the colonists who may be the last remnants of the Milky Way if Shep and the Crucible fail.

EDIT: I also think Shep would fully understand that he isn't on a need to know.

[dreamgazer]

'We could use those resources to try and beat the Reapers conventionally!!1!1!'

Oh, great. Can't wait for that.

[Unata]

Shep can't keep a secret anyway, breaks down after awhile and tells Garrus about the Wreav deception.

[MrFob]

If you don't believe they were thinking about ME:A when they wrote ME3 - what choice do they have but to "insert things retroactively" I wonder?  At this stage, we also know the story has been written... and changing it drastically at the last minute to reconsider something a fan brings up is probably a worse situation than just pursuing whatever "course" they've now set for themselves (clever or not).  Changing their minds now isn't suddenly going to make them great writers. (JMO).

 

I am not saying that they have a choice. I am also not saying that I want to change their minds about anything in ME:A (I realize that it's all set in stone by now). All I am saying is that I care about details like that, that I think that details are the hallmark of good writing and I am voicing this opinion here because BW used to be great at details-first writing, they went away from this approach and I do hope that they will go back to it some day. Whether they will do so with ME:A or later (or not at all) remains to be seen. But I think it cannot hurt this hope if fans voice that they are concerned about details in the stories that BW writes.

[Dean_the_Young]

Maybe she doesn't know the fleet was successfully launched? No sense telling Shepard about an apparent failure.

Edit: ninja'd.

 

Or even a success, after the fact. The Crucible was the big shiney thing that people kind of knew about and put their hopes in, but everyone knew that if they failed it wouldn't matter that the Reapers knew of it. But if the Milky Way fails, and the Reapers know of the Arcs and their location, there's not much reason not to expect the Arcs to arrive in Andromedea with a Reaper cohort already there waiting. Like someone else said upthread, this is the sort of project where you burn the records and shoot the workers as soon as you can.

 

 

Of course, there's also the question of when Liara and Shepard should know. When does this occur, and why should it be brought up afterwards?

 

Obviously not during ME1, since no one believes.

 

If it'd during the period of Shepard's death, Shepard's, well, dead.

 

During ME2, no one has an incentive to tell Shepard, who's dead-set on a suicide mission anyway. The Council doesn't trust Shepard, and Cerberus wouldn't want to hint at it's hand if it knows and has a role in the project.

 

Whether it happens before or after Liara becomes the Shadow Broker is relevant. If it's before, then the Shadow Broker may well have known but been paid to help cover up and destroy data. If the Broker colluded and destroyed records on destination, timing, and such, then there'd be nothing for Liara to inherit. And even if she did, if they already left it'd be a distraction to actually addressing the problem as she gets a handle on the Broker's network.

 

If it happens after ME2, then Shepard's in lockdown for Arrival. No one tells him because he's in trouble, even if the project is built between now and then. (Standard Mass Effect building timelines apply.)

 

If the ships leave at the start of ME3, then no one would necessarily know if they succeeded: the Reapers cut off Earth from coms at the start, and the nature of the departure (if any ship is seen attacked and/or destroyed) could indicate the Arks were destroyed. No one would know otherwise.

 

After ME3's start, the survival or escape of the ships becomes irrelevant, and possibly unknown.

[AlanC9]

Oh, great. Can't wait for that.

Hey, that argument was fun the first 487 times we had it.

[Hammerstorm]

What if the ark's are made for exploring the galaxy? I mean instead of open up a Mass Relay (remember the rachni?) they instead have ships that can go to a star cluster and look for civilizations that may be open to join the Citadel races? That would require some kind of cryosleep anyway.

And when they realize that Shepard is right, they start to alter the ships and maybe change some personnel?

 

Does this sound plausible?  Or did I miss something? 

[Para9on So1dier]

Yes, he might need to come save the day.

 

Would be like Goku travelling to Namek, just longer.

[CronoDragoon]

I don't see a reason other than the player's ego for Shepard to know.

[MrFob]

What if the ark's are made for exploring the galaxy? I mean instead of open up a Mass Relay (remember the rachni?) they instead have ships that can go to a star cluster and look for civilizations that may be open to join the Citadel races? That would require some kind of cryosleep anyway.

And when they realize that Shepard is right, they start to alter the ships and maybe change some personnel?

 

Does this sound plausible?  Or did I miss something? 

 

I'm not sure how this would play out. If the ARKs were designed to explore clusters in the Milky Way, I don't see how they would have gotten to Andromeda (especially if we can believe one of the interviews where we heard that 400 years travel time "was not a bad guess"). Would it have been an accident and how did the ships cross dark space if not designed for that?

 

In principle, the idea to use sleeper ships to explore the Milky Way without opening relays would have been a good one at the time of ME1, when the general setup still was that traveling between clusters at FTL was highly problematic. However, since this setup got effectively retconned in ME3 where we learn that traveling between clusters without relays is more of a giant inconvenience than a real barrier to exploration, sleeper ships wouldn't really be required for that.

[Fixers0]

Inventing reasons as to why the Arks' existence is mysteriously hidden from Shepard is just covering for the inevitable Retcon. Especially If it would be revealed that Characters like Anderson, Hackett, Udina and the Council were well aware of the program and were deliberately keeping him/her in the dark.

 

Again, regardless of what is true, there will some retroactive introductions, as otherwise It doesn't make much sense either. When it comes down it there are only two possible options:
 

1. Nobody knew about the Ark project (which is lame and unbelievable).

2. Peple did knew but just didn't talk about (Which is also lame, if slightly less absurd).

[Kabooooom]

What if the ark's are made for exploring the galaxy? I mean instead of open up a Mass Relay (remember the rachni?) they instead have ships that can go to a star cluster and look for civilizations that may be open to join the Citadel races? That would require some kind of cryosleep anyway.
And when they realize that Shepard is right, they start to alter the ships and maybe change some personnel?

Does this sound plausible? Or did I miss something?

I guess my objection to this would be the tech involved and their design. When exploring the Galaxy, they wouldn't need to solve the discharge problem, or even a problem of obtaining fuel as they could mine helium-3 from gas giants and ice crack any number of moons or asteroids. They would basically be doing what the Quarians already do, except in deep, unexplored space. But an intergalactic voyage is another story. Drive discharge and fuel becomes a major problem, and the time involved becomes insurmountable unless cryo is used.

Granted, a deep space exploratory mission in the Milky Way may also require cryo - it would take 30 years to fly straight across the MW at 12 ly/day, and realistically longer as you'd have to avoid the galactic core. Obviously they wouldn't just be flying straight across, but the timeline we are talking about for deep exploration of the Milky Way would be decades regardless. And decades =/= centuries, which is what an intergalactic journey would take.

And then there is the little problem of ship breakdown. The Quarian fleet has been doing their thing for 300 years, and Tali says many of their ships are falling apart and in need of constant repair. This would be an issue with any long journey of exploration, but especially so in the middle of intergalactic space.

It's just...not feasible. In my opinion, these Arks would have needed to be built with the specific goal of making it 2.5 million light years to Andromeda, because that's an extremely lofty goal to begin with.

[UpUpAway]

I am not saying that they have a choice. I am also not saying that I want to change their minds about anything in ME:A (I realize that it's all set in stone by now). All I am saying is that I care about details like that, that I think that details are the hallmark of good writing and I am voicing this opinion here because BW used to be great at details-first writing, they went away from this approach and I do hope that they will go back to it some day. Whether they will do so with ME:A or later (or not at all) remains to be seen. But I think it cannot hurt this hope if fans voice that they are concerned about details in the stories that BW writes.

 

I agree... and the fans are, I hope, having some fun while keeping it in perspective that we are only speculating about what Bioware may have done and cannot, in any way, judge the quality of what they have actually done yet.  They can do that (and I'm sure they will) after the game is released.

 

Since Bioware are in a position, most likely, of having to retroactively connect ME:A to the ME Trilogy, they are probably going to need to use whatever "holes" are left in the ME Trilogy plot in order to have some "room" to insert the ME:A story.  Authors of book series do this intentionally... but then they have the ability to keep total control over the story.  They can, for example, misdirect the reader at will and they ultimately make all the character's choices for them.  The reader has no choice but to "go along for the ride."  When I said "it's a video game," I wasn't meaning that it is a blanket excuse for poor writing.  i'm saying that it's "interactive" and in that "interactive environment" the author loses a lot of the control they have over the plot.  IMO, writing an interactive "book" is more difficult than writing a simple novel and continuing a series of "interactive books" is even more difficult... and they might just have to use some of the "cheaper" premises that we find all over the place in popular media... like TV series.  So, in that, if Bioware decides that Liara knew... then Liara may become a character who keeps that info from Shepard.  If Bioware decides that Shepard knew, then it's just that the audience (us, the players) were not informed about everything that Shepard knew.

 

If I were, say, Hackett, and i knew... would I tell Shepard?  No, he/she is just a commander and I'm using (sorry, ordering) him/her to stay behind and get me resources and allies to build a weapon we've just discovered and perhaps ultimately even die fighting the Reapers inside the Milky Way... all while the ARKs travel and get further away from the fight... under the Command of a different Commander.  Commander Shepard doesn't need to know.

[Hammerstorm]

I'm not sure how this would play out. If the ARKs were designed to explore clusters in the Milky Way, I don't see how they would have gotten to Andromeda (especially if we can believe one of the interviews where we heard that 400 years travel time "was not a bad guess"). Would it have been an accident and how did the ships cross dark space if not designed for that?

 

In principle, the idea to use sleeper ships to explore the Milky Way without opening relays would have been a good one at the time of ME1, when the general setup still was that traveling between clusters at FTL was highly problematic. However, since this setup got effectively retconned in ME3 where we learn that traveling between clusters without relays is more of a giant inconvenience than a real barrier to exploration, sleeper ships wouldn't really be required for that.

 

Well, I was more thinking that they hadn't start exploring, only that they was planned for that purpose. But before they got everything done they got new info about the reapers and decided to use this expedition as a cover for sending people to andromeda.

 

But you are right that it is not the best explanation.  

[Hammerstorm]

I guess my objection to this would be the tech involved and their design. When exploring the Galaxy, they wouldn't need to solve the discharge problem, or even a problem of obtaining fuel as they could mine helium-3 from gas giants and ice crack any number of moons or asteroids. They would basically be doing what the Quarians already do, except in deep, unexplored space. But an intergalactic voyage is another story. Drive discharge and fuel becomes a major problem, and the time involved becomes insurmountable unless cryo is used.

Granted, a deep space exploratory mission in the Milky Way may also require cryo - it would take 30 years to fly straight across the MW at 12 ly/day, and realistically longer as you'd have to avoid the galactic core. Obviously they wouldn't just be flying straight across, but the timeline we are talking about for deep exploration of the Milky Way would be decades regardless. And decades =/= centuries, which is what an intergalactic journey would take.

And then there is the little problem of ship breakdown. The Quarian fleet has been doing their thing for 300 years, and Tali says many of their ships are falling apart and in need of constant repair. This would be an issue with any long journey of exploration, but especially so in the middle of intergalactic space.

It's just...not feasible. In my opinion, these Arks would have needed to be built with the specific goal of making it 2.5 million light years to Andromeda, because that's an extremely lofty goal to begin with.

 

Well, that just show that I won't start writing stories.   

[Kabooooom]

I'm not sure how this would play out. If the ARKs were designed to explore clusters in the Milky Way, I don't see how they would have gotten to Andromeda (especially if we can believe one of the interviews where we heard that 400 years travel time "was not a bad guess"). Would it have been an accident and how did the ships cross dark space if not designed for that?

In principle, the idea to use sleeper ships to explore the Milky Way without opening relays would have been a good one at the time of ME1, when the general setup still was that traveling between clusters at FTL was highly problematic. However, since this setup got effectively retconned in ME3 where we learn that traveling between clusters without relays is more of a giant inconvenience than a real barrier to exploration, sleeper ships wouldn't really be required for that.

They didn't really retcon anything with respect to that, it was problematic always because it was inconvenient and dangerous. Primary relays, per the lore,are separated from each other by an average of several thousand light years. That would be a 6 month journey with FTL through uncharted and/or unexplored space which would...massively suck.

Even in ME1, they discuss this - several universities planned to chart an FTL course and travel to Ilos, but this always fell through because it would be a major pain and there were fears of pirate attacks.

[Silvery]

It seems like Shepard and/or Liara should know. They let Shepard know about the Crucible, as well as everything else and Liara is the Shadow Broker so it seems like she would find out about it. 

 

Maybe the arks left went Shepard was in Alliance custody for the 6 months between ME2 and ME3 and that's why he did not know? 

[Kabooooom]

Well, that just show that I won't start writing stories.

Sorry, didn't mean to be overly critical. These are the problems that we've always discussed with the Ark Theory. Many of the people here have come up with some rather brilliant lore-friendly solutions to pretty much every problem. If Bioware is clever, they would take some of their ideas.

Hopefully Bioware will address these major issues with an intergalactic Ark....but I'm not getting my hopes up.

[Hammerstorm]

Sorry, didn't mean to be overly critical. These are the problems that we've always discussed with the Ark Theory.

Hopefully Bioware will address these major issues with an intergalactic Ark....but I'm not getting my hopes up.

 

No worry, I don't take it so bad. 

 

You are right that there is some problem that will require some really good gymnastic to explain.

 

(Now where did I hid my stash of Ryncol?)

[MrFob]

They didn't really retcon anything with respect to that, it was problematic always because it was inconvenient and dangerous. Primary relays, per the lore,are separated from each other by an average of several thousand light years. That would be a 6 month journey with FTL through uncharted and/or unexplored space which would...massively suck.

 

I agree it wasn't exactly a retcon but it was close in the way space exploration and travel times as well as the difficulty with drive discharge sites is described in ME1 vs. ME3 (and especially with some things the devs said in the aftermath of the endings when suddenly relays weren't all that important anymore).

 

In any case, sure, you'd need about 22-30 years to cross the galaxy just with council race FTL technology but since the point I answered to was about exploration starting from systems with relays (and looking at the density of the relay network on the galaxy map), I'd say that using relays as much as possible and only using FTL for the "last lag", one should be able to reach any accessible point in the MW within a few months tops.

The main problem might rather be to chart a proper course (as it was for e.g. Illos) but sleeper ships won't really help you there.