210 réponses à ce sujet

[Gothfather]

Shepard is one cog in the machinery there is little reason to no reason tell Shepard and countless reasons NOT to tell Shepard.

 

1) Shepard is a soldier and soldiers don't need to know about every project in the works. This is why Shepard DISCOVERS Alliance plans as they enter his/her orbit not before you see this in all three games of the trilogy. Usually this revelation is cage in terms of 'Shepard we have a problem we want you to solve.'

 

2) Shepard is a FIELD solder/agent not a FLAG officer ergo Shepard isn't part of the planning process of the greater war effort. Shepard has one order in ME3 and that is to gain support of the other citadel races to help retake earth that is it. Infact we seek out the most experienced Flag officer in the game to actually PLAN the war effort That is the whole start of  the Turin quest arcs.

 

3) Shepard is a FIELD officer and so NO sensitive information that isn't REQUIRED for Shepard to complete his/her orders should ever be given to Shepard as there is a VERY real possibility of capture and/or indoctrination which the Admiralty is aware is possible by ME1.

 

4) Sun Tze talks about how soldiers who believe the only choice is to fight or to die will fight harder. Shepard not knowing there is an ark program means Shepard is more likely to fight harder giving plan A, Shephard's gambit, a better chance of success but also meaning that if it does fail it will cost the reapers more slowing them down giving the ark program a better chance to remain secret and hidden.

 

I think this answers your question.

[Gothfather]

Say what you will about Liara's minor gaps in knowledge during ME3, but there's no way that the Shadow Broker wouldn't have had a dossier of info about the ark ships.

 

The shadow broker is the best informed information broker not an omni-prescient information broker. There are ways to hide a project like this that an information broker might have pieces of but not the whole picture.

 

You create a cover story that is secret but believable that hides the true nature of the project under yet another lair of secrecy, this is how tanks got their name, there was a secret project to build superior water tanks for the war effort. This is what most people in the cogs of the machinery of this project thought they were working on including most of the workers. Thus when it was finish they had a mobile "tank" yet it wasn't a 'tank' it was an armoured vehicle. 

 

The ark project could very well disguise itself in a similar secret project cover story as the tank. A secret project to create multiple large transport ships to evacuate civilians from worlds. It is a plausible reason for the material delivered it doesn't contradict the first few layers of secrets that  would be exposed about the project and it is something the workers on the project would find believable. Since the cover story is secret as well you'd have to have a REASON to look into the project further once you found out the secret project was to create large civilian evacuation ship for transport from threaten worlds to "safer" worlds.

 

 

This also means that many information brokers and spy agencies might 'know' of the secret project but believe the secret cover story. By making the cover story a secret as well you create an additional layer of secrecy that protects the project. And since the cover story has to be uncovered it appears to be the actual reason for the project without actually being the reason.

[Fixers0]

1) Shepard is a soldier and soldiers don't need to know about every project in the works. This is why Shepard DISCOVERS Alliance plans as they enter his/her orbit not before you see this in all three games of the trilogy. Usually this revelation is cage in terms of 'Shepard we have a problem we want you to solve.'

 

2) Shepard is a FIELD solder/agent not a FLAG officer ergo Shepard isn't part of the planning process of the greater war effort. Shepard has one order in ME3 and that is to gain support of the other citadel races to help retake earth that is it. Infact we seek out the most experienced Flag officer in the game to actually PLAN the war effort That is the whole start of  the Turin quest arcs.

 

3) Shepard is a FIELD officer and so NO sensitive information that isn't REQUIRED for Shepard to complete his/her orders should ever be given to Shepard as there is a VERY real possibility of capture and/or indoctrination which the Admiralty is aware is possible by ME1.

 

4) Sun Tze talks about how soldiers who believe the only choice is to fight or to die will fight harder. Shepard not knowing there is an ark program means Shepard is more likely to fight harder giving plan A, Shephard's gambit, a better chance of success but also meaning that if it does fail it will cost the reapers more slowing them down giving the ark program a better chance to remain secret and hidden.

 

Thanks for the headcannon. But surely you don't believes this yourself do you. Considering Shepard at the point of ME3 is pretty much a messia that negotiates on behalf of Humanity, and leads a hyper advanced command ship with constant influx of information regarding thing most admirals don't know . And yet all in the information regarding the ark project conveniently eludes Shepard. That's really poor on the part of the writer if they go that route. 

[Kabooooom]

I agree it wasn't exactly a retcon but it was close in the way space exploration and travel times as well as the difficulty with drive discharge sites is described in ME1 vs. ME3.

In any case, sure, you'd need about 22 years to cross the galaxy just with council races FTL technology but since the point I answered to was about exploration starting from systems with relays (and looking at the density of the relay network on the galaxy map), I'd say that using relays as much as possible and only using FTL for the "last lag", one should be able to reach any accessible point in the MW within a few months tops.
The main problem might rather be to chart a proper course (as it was for e.g. Illos) but sleeper ships won't really help you there.

I agree. It would take approximately 6 months to travel via FTL between two primary relays, but if they are doing it as a mission of exploration, it would take considerably longer as they would frequently stop to explore star systems. Potentially years of exploration. And a sleeper ship would be somewhat pointless for that unless the crew alternated out, otherwise they would be waking up all the time.

This is also what the Gernsback seemed to be doing - it was an exploration ship, they planned for years in deep space and there weren't any indications that they used cryo at all, although I suppose they could have.

But going to Andromeda...man, that would be a different story. You pretty much have two options: cryo or a generation ship. And the latter is logically a much worse choice.

Like I said before...I really hope Bioware thought some of this through. The trailer suggests they use cryo - good choice, Bioware.

[Drone223]

Sure, Shepard knew about the crucible but didn't need know where it was being built the same can done with an ark, tell Shepard that its there but not the exact details. Also Shepard is clearly someone who wouldn't object to the idea of a plan B should the crucible fail instead of putting all their eggs in one basket besides Shepard would've already known about it anyway since we see the ark ships orbiting the earth in the recent E3 "trailer".

[Onuris22]

I guess it'd depend on what info I was privy to. If I knew about indoctrination I'd maybe keep pretty hush hush and there were certainly projects Shepard didn't know about while ME/2/3 were going on until Hackett or Anderson spoke up. Military tends to work on a need to know basis often in order to maintain operational security.

 

Shepard may have even known but we also know so very little about the when, or how of the arks to really know. It has to be a MASSIVE project and keeping that under wraps seems like it'd be very difficult especially as it was a joint venture.

 

I'm not sure what telling Shepard would have really done. He still had to stop the reapers since if he doesn't the arks are doomed regardless unless they were hoping they left in enough time to evade them. His course of action would have been the same especially since if he's victorious the arks aren't needed unless they were designed all along originally for space exploration and not species survival. The latter could have been the plan to maybe buy time in order to stop the reapers later (which I doubt), but it really depends on how they fit it in with the existing story.

[Kabooooom]

Sure, Shepard knew about the crucible but didn't need know where it was being built the same can done with an ark, tell Shepard that its there but not the exact details. Also Shepard is clearly someone who wouldn't object to the idea of a plan B should the crucible fail instead of putting all their eggs in one basket besides Shepard would've already known about it anyway since we see the ark ships orbiting the earth in the recent E3 "trailer".

This is reasonable. Even if the Reapers found out about the Ark...hell, even if they found out that it was going to Andromeda - people don't realize how colossally huge space is. It would be like finding a needle in a haystack with a 200,000 light year diameter. Good luck with that.

But there can be something said about the fact that the Reapers have all the time in the universe. Sure, it would be hard to find them in Andromeda, but they could spend resources on looking if they know they are there. And then they're screwed, eventually. It could be a million years later, but that wouldn't be a big deal for the Reapers. Of course, that's if the Reapers would even care they escaped in the first place.

EDIT: I submit for consideration that the Andromeda colonists could advance so much in that time that they could actually become a technological threat to the Reapers.

[Fozee]

I think it's important that Shepard knows if his/her favorite shop on the Citadel made it onto the arks. 

[MrFob]

But going to Andromeda...man, that would be a different story. You pretty much have two options: cryo or a generation ship. And the latter is logically a much worse choice.

Like I said before...I really hope Bioware thought some of this through. The trailer suggests they use cryo - good choice, Bioware.

 

To me, even the cryo story leaves a lot of question marks:

Did they go with FTL? If so, how about drive discharge points in dark space? What about fuel? (not necessarily to maintain speed, which might just be maintained after an initial burst of acceleration but to keep the cryo units powered and in case of FTL travel to keep pumping juice into the ME core)

If they didn't go with FTL then the 400 year guess should be way off.

Even if it's "only" a X hundred year trip, who maintains the ship throughout all this time and how? (as you said, the quarians had issues keeping their ships together for 300 years while constantly repairing stuff and they had the ability to mine resources and trade with other races in the MW)

 

I really hope they can come up with half way decent explanations for this. I really don't want to start the game on the next BS "you are there, don't think about how" explanation. It's about the only thing that could sour the entire experience for me,e even if the rest of the game is good.

[Drone223]

To me, even the cryo story leaves a lot of question marks:

Did they go with FTL? If so, how about drive discharge points in dark space? What about fuel? (not necessarily to maintain speed, which might just be maintained after an initial burst of acceleration but to keep the cryo units powered and in case of FTL travel to keep pumping juice into the ME core)

If they didn't go with FTL then the 400 year guess should be way off.

Even if it's "only" a X hundred year trip, who maintains the ship throughout all this time and how? (as you said, the quarians had issues keeping their ships together for 300 years while constantly repairing stuff and they had the ability to mine resources and trade with other races in the MW)

 

I really hope they can come up with half way decent explanations for this. I really don't want to start the game on the next BS "you are there, don't think about how" explanation. It's about the only thing that could sour the entire experience for me,e even if the rest of the game is good.

Unfortunately given Bioware's recent history of being unable to give plot devices good explanations and what we've seen so far it looks like its going to be yet another BS explanation comparable to the Lazarus project and synthesis. 

[TurianSpectre]

No because then the whole building an army to destroy the reapers would then be a waste of time... unless sheperd was told in secret and even the player didnt know but the battle for earth was like a diversion to give people time to flee and then the crucible was a way of stopping the reapers from following after everyone had fled

[Dean_the_Young]

To me, even the cryo story leaves a lot of question marks:

Did they go with FTL?

Yes.
 

 

If so, how about drive discharge points in dark space?

 

 

Technology. (It works for the Reapers.)
 

 

What about fuel? (not necessarily to maintain speed, which might just be maintained after an initial burst of acceleration but to keep the cryo units powered and in case of FTL travel to keep pumping juice into the ME core)

 

Fuel isn't used to maintain speed or systems in the ME universe. Power is, and enduring power systems for ships and installations are well established.

 

 

 

Even if it's "only" a X hundred year trip, who maintains the ship throughout all this time and how? (as you said, the quarians had issues keeping their ships together for 300 years while constantly repairing stuff and they had the ability to mine resources and trade with other races in the MW)

 

Automated systems and VI, same as every other long-enduring system in the series.
 

 

I really hope they can come up with half way decent explanations for this. I really don't want to start the game on the next BS "you are there, don't think about how" explanation. It's about the only thing that could sour the entire experience for me,e even if the rest of the game is good.

 

Stuff that's already constant throughout the series would sour the experience for you?

[ZipZap2000]

I'd give him his own damn Ark and an Army of clones to command if we're being honest.

[Gothfather]

Thanks for the headcannon. But surely you don't believes this yourself do you. Considering Shepard at the point of ME3 is pretty much a messia that negotiates on behalf of Humanity, and leads a hyper advanced command ship with constant influx of information regarding thing most admirals don't know . And yet all in the information regarding the ark project conveniently eludes Shepard. That's really poor on the part of the writer if they go that route. 

 

What do you mean? This isn't headcannon it is actual cannon. We CONSTANTLY get missions for aspects of the war effort that we has ZERO foreknowledge of before the mission briefing. What Shepard the messiah suddenly forgot because...? Shepard knows things other people do not but that doesn't mean Shepard knows all things. No soldier or officer know every fraking plan or project in a war. It amazes me that people actually think a COMMANDER suddenly has total knowledge of every aspect of the war. 

 

Preliminary secret projects are often not even known all the way up, let alone down the chain of command. First it is how you keep things a bloody secret and second secret projects often go no where and the top echelons of command don't need to know about every project BEFORE it bares fruit. They DELEGATE things to their subordinates who delegate. This allows them to concentrate on specifics.

 

Who in their right mind actually thinks Shepard knows about every factory, ship, soldier, officer in the Alliance? Hell Shepard probably doesn't even know about where ever roll of toilet paper is in the Normandy. Why? Because of Delegation. You think every project in the Alliance let alone all of Citadel space gives Shepard a status update?

 

"Hey Shepard you know that m-1234 septic tank pump we are working on for a mako?"

 

"Err No why would I know about that?"

 

"Well you are Space jesus so why don't you know everything?"

 

"I'm pretty bloody busy trying to convince, coerce and cajole the Council Races into helping us retake earth."

 

"Well yeah but you know stuff Admirals don't so how could this escape you?"

 

"Ahh No. I know Some things Admirals don't know that i have obtained on my mission I do not have constant feeds of every aspect of the alliance war machine being fed to me."

 

"Sure you must have. You have an advance command ship."

 

"Well yes I have a command ship to co-ordinate the fleets of the other races to help liberate earth. That isn't the only front in the war. That isn't the only operation. It isn't like Admiral Nimitz had intimate knowledge of the the D-Day operations even though he was the theatre commander for the Pacific."

 

"But this is a super secret really important thing how could you not know."

 

"If it isn't germane to my mission WHY would I know? For what possible reason would people tell me things that have nothing to do with my mission?"

 

"But you are important how could you not know..."

 

 

It makes zero sense for Shepard to be told and every reason for Shepard NOT to be told.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Assuming the Ark project was a failsafe in the event that we lose the Reaper war then no, because knowledge of such a project would be on a need to know basis and Shep doesn't need to know.

 

Even if I were in Liara's place as the shadowbroker and thus there was like a 99.99% chance that I knew about it, I'd probably still not tell Shep about it in the event of indoctrination which while it doesn't happen is still something you should be safe against since everybody else who comes into contact with the Reapers ends up that way.

If Shepard is considered a security risk, because he is at the front, then why didn't Liara retreat? She is at that same front and more or less exposed to the same risks.

[Fixers0]

What do you mean? This isn't headcannon it is actual cannon. We CONSTANTLY get missions for aspects of the war effort that we has ZERO foreknowledge of before the mission briefing. What Shepard the messiah suddenly forgot because...? Shepard know things other people do not but that doesn't mean Shepard knows all things. No soldier or officer know every fraking plan or project in a war. It amazes me that people actually think a COMMANDER suddenly has total knowledge of every aspect of the war. 

 

Considering Shepard is principly in charge of uniting all the races and doing all the negotiations, even going so far as representing humanity on the war Summit. Furthermore the Ark project is as big if not bigger than the Crucible project. Constructing Multiple station-sized carriers is not something you at your leisure on a backwater colony. It will drain resources and manpower, and it will leave pretty big mark. And Shepard, the most important asset to the Galaxy, somehow doesn't know because...There simply was no Ark project when ME3 was written, but now that is retconnend so we come with the must ridiculous reason as to why the existence of the Arks conveniently is hidden from Shepard.

[Blueblood]

Maybe Shepard did know, maybe that speech in the trailer was the speech Shep recorded to the volunteers.

[Urizen]

Even if it's "only" a X hundred year trip, who maintains the ship throughout all this time and how? (as you said, the quarians had issues keeping their ships together for 300 years while constantly repairing stuff and they had the ability to mine resources and trade with other races in the MW).

 

As to who, the answer is simple. We´ve already seen a Krogan and an Asari. It´s not unreasonable to assume that they are not the only ones. But given the Krogans aggressive nature, it´s safe to assume that they were in Cryo as well. That leaves the Asari with a 1000 year lifespan. Throw VI into the mix and you don´t need that many to begin with, making sure that food supplies last for a very long time, even more so if the arks have their own hydroponics section. Water simply gets recycled. That leaves the how. Small replaceable parts were manufactured en gross before departure and stored on the arks. Leaving the hull. Again large quantities of raw materials were stored on the arks and are shaped in form on the arks. Storage space should be ample on an ark actually. Cryo pods are quite compact and you can pack them together quite nicely.

[BloodyMares]

Arks are a gamble so there's not really a need to know about them for a military. It is unknown if they will reach Andromeda or not. And during the war you can't rely on "maybe". Although Crucible was a gamble as well...

[UpUpAway]

Arks are a gamble so there's not really a need to know about them for a military. It is unknown if they will reach Andromeda or not. And during the war you can't rely on "maybe". Although Crucible was a gamble as well...

 

You go to war with whatever you have.  I think the ARK tech came from the Prothean Archives at Ilos (and that was kept secret from Shepard).  They did not find the Crucible plans until just after the Reapers attacked earth.  So, Plan A (which was the only plan available to them) was to use the ARK tech they found.  That plan is well under construction with a number of ARKs completed (but not all) when the Reapers are spotted on Earth's long-range sensors and whatever ARKs are finished are mobilized.  Some are left behind, still under construction.  When the plans for the Crucible are found, it's see as a plan that could conceivable save more of the rest of the people that the ARKs couldn't take on.  Construction is begun and Shepard is order to collect the necessary resources and allies to fight the Reapers inside the Milky Way galaxy... but there is no point in recalling the ARKs that left just before the attack since there is still a strong probability that the Crucible plan will fail.  The ARKs therefore continue on their journey, leaving the galaxy prior to the end of ME3 and beginning an FTL journey that lasts several hundreds of years.  As for the maintenance of the ships - that is done by AI (patterned off of Vigil whose job it was to maintain the Ilos facility for thousands of years) while the Protheans slept.   Also, let's not forget that it was the Prothean scientists at Ilos who also figured out how to 'reprogram" the keepers so they wouldn't respond to the Reaper signal, but the keepers are obviously still very talented at looking after technology over a long period of time... so perhaps, the ARK project kidnaps a few of them to look after the ARKs.

[Iakus]

 

Technology. (It works for the Reapers.)
 

What technology?  How was it learned?(especially if they leave before ME3)

 

 

 

Fuel isn't used to maintain speed or systems in the ME universe. Power is, and enduring power systems for ships and installations are well established.

 

So what were all those fuel depots for?

 

 

 

Stuff that's already constant throughout the series would sour the experience for
you?

It would for me, they soured the ME experience the first time around.

[dreamgazer]

It would for me, they soured the ME experience the first time around.

 

I'd bail now, then, because this is a continuation of the same franchise. 

[wright1978]

Shep has no need to know about any arks. There's no upside to his/her knowing and very high negative risks.

[Iakus]

Shep has no need to know about any arks. There's no upside to his/her knowing and very high negative risks.

What risks?  Ships can't be tracked in ftl, so it's not like the Reapers are going to find them.

[AlleyD]

I see no reason that the ARKs have to be constructed within the Alliance or Council. For me, it is more likely that the ARK was built by corporations that are already in the colonization business for the last few decades than it would be constructed by political or military factions that might involve Shepard.

 

If the Alliance etc is involved at some level, I see no reason to tell Shepard at any point.