Say what you will about Liara's minor gaps in knowledge during ME3, but there's no way that the Shadow Broker wouldn't have had a dossier of info about the ark ships.
Liara most incompetent shadowbroker she didn't even know where TIM base. I hated it so much I asked her all the time where is Cerberus base use you omnipotent knowledge of everything, come on you know Jack real name but can find stupid base. And Samantha find it come on 
why or why not?
Nope. For the same reason you do not tell the Quarterback "hey we are already planning for when you fail on this two minute drive, but you go out there and fight the good fight buddy."
Even if it's "only" a X hundred year trip, who maintains the ship throughout all this time and how? (as you said, the quarians had issues keeping their ships together for 300 years while constantly repairing stuff and they had the ability to mine resources and trade with other races in the MW)
The fuel issue is a whole other problem though - an almost insurmountable problem. There are stars between galaxies, but too few and far between.
Nope. For the same reason you do not tell the Quarterback "hey we are already planning for when you fail on this two minute drive, but you go out there and fight the good fight buddy."
Because lying to an important asset is the way to win a war. What difference does it make? Do you honestly think Shepard will perform worse when you inform him/her that alternatives are/have been consider. In any case it says more about the people who deceiving Shepard than they do about him/herself.
Suppose Hackett knows about the Arks because he's the head of the Alliance. Does that mean he is his less able to command and coordinate the fleets? That he's lost hope and motivation? That everything he tells Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is just a facade? And if the council is lying as well? And Anderson? Is even Liara actively witholding the information about the Arks?
See, where is going? It's not just about Shepard. By that kind of logic anybody and everybody who has ever been involved or has knowledge about the program has tacticly given hope and is at best winning time. Because really, what can they do else anyway, know that the know about the Arks?
Because lying to an important asset is the way to win a war. What difference does it make? Do you honestly think Shepard will perform worse when you inform him/her that alternatives are/have been consider. In any case it says more about the people who deceiving Shepard than they do about him/herself.
Suppose Hackett knows about the Arks because he's the head of the Alliance. Does that mean he is his less able to command and coordinate the fleets? That he's lost hope and motivation? That everything he tells Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is just a facade? And if the council is lying as well? And Anderson? Is even Liara actively witholding the information about the Arks?
See, where is going? It's not just about Shepard. By that kind of logic anybody and everybody who has ever been involved or has knowledge about the program has tacticly given hope and is at best winning time. Because really, what can they do else anyway, know that the know about the Arks?
However, balance the thought out. "What difference does it make if Shepard knows?" against "Is there really any reason Shepard needs to know?" If the conclusion to the first one is that it would make no difference in Shepard's performance, then it holds that it would also make no difference if he/she doesn't know. The brass is going to try to keep the knowledge of a secret ARK project in the hands of as few people as possible... limit it to the people who really need to know. Why? Because not everyone is going to get to come along for the ride. The ones left behind are being left behind to probably die; and you need the ARKs to be able to leave without a bunch of uninvited passengers rioting to get on board. Helping with the ARK project is not part of Shepard's job. His order are to engage in "interdiction" activities against the reapers and, as part of that, he is authorized to forge alliances with non-humans. Shepard simply does not need to know about the ARKs, so, if I were Hackett, I would not tell him... and IF Liara needed to know, I (Hackett) would clearly direct her not to tell anyone without my (Hackett's) express approval.
If there is a reason why Shepard would need to know (perhaps because the Alliance is absconding with all the resources that Shepard brought into dock in the Normandy (which happens prior to the Alliance knowing about the Crucible alternative), then I (Hackett) would put Shepard under express orders to not discuss or divulge the information to anyone... so there would be no reason for Shepard and company to be loosely talking about ARKs as we (the audience) play through ME3.
This whole discussion is based on the premise that "OMG, Bioware will have to retcon this. Well, duh... yeah, they will because it's pretty much assured that they weren't planning to write ME:A while they were writing ME1 to ME3." The IRL answer is that Shepard didn't know about the ARKs because, at that time, the authors who created Shepard didn't know about the ARKs.
As I understand it, fuel is really only used at sub-FTL speeds, mostly for "local" travel around systems - and perhaps to provide the initial thrust to get to speed.
With indoctrination around I would not let anyone who is not involved in the project know.
Because lying to an important asset is the way to win a war. What difference does it make? Do you honestly think Shepard will perform worse when you inform him/her that alternatives are/have been consider. In any case it says more about the people who deceiving Shepard than they do about him/herself.
Suppose Hackett knows about the Arks because he's the head of the Alliance. Does that mean he is his less able to command and coordinate the fleets? That he's lost hope and motivation? That everything he tells Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is just a facade? And if the council is lying as well? And Anderson? Is even Liara actively witholding the information about the Arks?
See, where is going? It's not just about Shepard. By that kind of logic anybody and everybody who has ever been involved or has knowledge about the program has tacticly given hope and is at best winning time. Because really, what can they do else anyway, know that the know about the Arks?
Who said anything about lying. Need to know basis. Shep does not need to know. Him knowing does nothing. Shep is also under more stress than anyone else as far as the task laid before him. He is trying to make peace and unify all the races in the galaxy. He already has enough weight on his shoulders.
BSN crybabies are responsible for that. When the script leaked a vocal minority shrieked and wailed that Liara was getting too much content, so when the game released an entire scene that had been written for Liara was shifted to Traynor. Originally it was Liara that tracked Cerberus. The amusing part is many of these same people later complained that Liara didn't do enough as Shadowbroker.Liara most incompetent shadowbroker she didn't even know where TIM base. I hated it so much I asked her all the time where is Cerberus base use you omnipotent knowledge of everything, come on you know Jack real name but can find stupid base. And Samantha find it come on
BSN crybabies are responsible for that. When the script leaked a vocal minority shrieked and wailed that Liara was getting too much content,
Is that why?
so when the game released an entire scene that had been written for Liara was shifted to Traynor. Originally it was Liara that tracked Cerberus.
How would Liara of tracked Cerberus when she was on Thessia and the scene where Traynor mentions tracing Leng happens shortly after the mission is completed. Or would it be glyph that is the one that tracks Cerberus, but it wouid be Liara that would take the credit since she's the broker?
The amusing part is many of these same people later complained that Liara didn't do enough as Shadowbroker.
For her to do more as a broker, I would not of made her a squadmate in ME3
While I don't like how her role as Shadowbroker was pushed entirely to the background in ME3, I do think all the various intelligence operations should have been portrayed as a little less omniscient than they were.
I don't see why Bioware made her the broker. If anything, I would've kept the broker ship for her to use in ME3. After Mars she goes back to the ship to help gather resources for the crucible and gathering information about fighting the reapers. When the player decides to do the Ashes dlc, Shepard heads to the broker ship to pick up Liara and at the same time receives any updates she might have. The same with Thessia.
Liara most incompetent shadowbroker she didn't even know where TIM base. I hated it so much I asked her all the time where is Cerberus base use you omnipotent knowledge of everything, come on you know Jack real name but can find stupid base. And Samantha find it come on
(and yes, Bioware chose to make Traynor seem useful as she was a character nobody asked for).
And nobody asked for a character to take Shepard's armor and display it like its a trophy.
Liara most incompetent shadowbroker she didn't even know where TIM base. I hated it so much I asked her all the time where is Cerberus base use you omnipotent knowledge of everything, come on you know Jack real name but can find stupid base. And Samantha find it come on
I think people really don't understand what the Shadow broker is/was. The Shadow broker trades and sells information. The number one key is SELLS, for profit, this means you set up your network to gather secrets but the priority of secrets isn't based on how important they are but how easy it is to monetize the secret. Secrets that the military find valuable are not going to be the secrets that are the most profitable.
1) The military/government always tries to do things on the cheap which means they are not going to be high paying customers. So secrets governments want are not a priority per say.
2) Companies will pay extreme amounts of money to get an advantage in the market place. So secrets corporations find valuable will be priorities.
3) Extortion can be a lucrative side business for the Shadow Broker and more importantly it allows leverage to obtain more valuable secrets.
4) Liara obtained the Shadow brokers network she did not build it herself, any major shift in the current network will expose agents and harm revenue which is required to sustain and grow the network. This mean changing the focus of the network takes time.
5) The loss of the Shadow Broker's ship is a major infrastructure blow to the network meaning change will come about even more slowly.
The shadow broker wasn't an all knowing spymaster, he was an information broker and this means that there will ALWAYS be secrets that the shadow broker doesn't know or doesn't care about knowing because it isn't deemed profitable which will influence where network is at its strongest. Military installations are not the most profitable secrets to acquire and yet they represent the most risk. So why do players think that the Shadow broker's network should know all these secrets and because Liara doesn't she is an idiot?
And Damn you for making me defend Liara a character i can't stand.
This is not entirely correct, fuel is absolutely used at FTL speeds in most cases, which is why you need to refuel the Normandy. In Mass Effect (and this isn't shown for gameplay reasons), the vessels apply electricity to eezo in a mass effect drive to create a mass effect field around the starship, and then they apply thrust to the engines. The vessel actually accelerates for 1/2 of the trip, turns around and then apply thrust in the opposite direction to decelerate for the other half. Once down to a safe enough speed, the mass effect field is shut off.A lot of the quarian's ships were worn-out salvaged derelicts repaired and enhanced with salvaged parts though, right? They left Rannoch in a big hurry, and did not start out with a fleet of brand spankin' new ships built specifically for long-term travel.
As I understand it, fuel is really only used at sub-FTL speeds, mostly for "local" travel around systems - and perhaps to provide the initial thrust to get to speed. Bear in mind, too, that once they reach full operating speed, the only thing they'd need to do is maintain the mass effect field to continue moving - and that field is created by applying power to an eezo core.
It's possible that once they're moving, they could shut down everything except life-support, nav, monitoring systems and just continue to travel at whatever speed that would give them.
So I don't know that they'd need to take on fuel until they arrive and are doing more localized travel.
The Codex says that ships use thrust continually, only reaching peak velocity at turnover. However, this is not coherent with having a standard FTL speed. Since the games contradict themselves here, Bio could go either way.
Who said anything about lying. Need to know basis. Shep does not need to know. Him knowing does nothing.
Shepard is quite literally the most important person in this war. Actively witholding information from such a person comes essentialy down to decieving him/her. Especially because of significant the implications the Ark project would have for the Crucible project, In which Shepard is heavily involved. Whoever is not telling Shepard is basically declaring they have not fate in him/her given their status.
In other words: The Ark is a major development in course the Reaper war and Shepard is the main force behind ending the war. Shepard's credentials alone warrent a right know of such huge developments.
Though I suppose we have to settle for an agree to disagree.
Shepard is quite literally the most important person in this war. Actively witholding information from such a person comes essentialy down to decieving him/her. Especially because of significant the implications the Ark project would have for the Crucible project, In which Shepard is heavily involved. Whoever is not telling Shepard is basically declaring they have not fate in him/her given their status.
In other words: The Ark is a major development in course the Reaper war and Shepard is the main force behind ending the war. Shepard's credentials alone warrent a right know of such huge developments.
Though I suppose we have to settle for an agree to disagree.
ME3 makes it clear that Shepard has enough stress on their plate when it comes to fighting the Reapers, so now imagine being told;
"Oh by the way, we're working on a Plan B in case you fail and get everyone killed. So y'know... no pressure."
Frequent exposure to Reaper tech makes Shepard a potential security risk when it comes to indoctrination. The unknown means that Cerberus brought Shepard back to life and some of their actions (the destruction of Bahak) further could makes Shepard's loyalties suspect to some in the Alliance.
Despite being aware of the Crucible project, we're told by Anderson and Hackett that they won't let Shepard know where the Crucible was being constructed in secret for security purposes. If that was seen as need to know and Shepard didn't need to know, why do we think they'd let them know about the Ark Project that was also going on?
In comparison, the Crucible was a (supposedly) Prothean weapon that the Reapers might already have known about, a top secret project Shepard was already privy to because they were present for when the plans were discovered. Shepard had no such exposure to information to necessitate bringing them into the loop on the Ark project, nor did the brass feel they needed to.
Just out of curiosity do ya'll think the Reapers would care about the Arks if they knew what they were for? Their directive is galaxy specific isn't it? So if a bunch of ships were aiming to go to a different galaxy would they stop them?
Nope the directive "Preserve life at any cost" As stated by both the Catalyst and the Leviathans
Limiting it to this galaxy is pure headcanon.
As I understand it, fuel is really only used at sub-FTL speeds, mostly for "local" travel around systems - and perhaps to provide the initial thrust to get to speed. Bear in mind, too, that once they reach full operating speed, the only thing they'd need to do is maintain the mass effect field to continue moving - and that field is created by applying power to an eezo core.
You'd have to go at FTL speeds to get between systems or the trip would take years.
BSN crybabies are responsible for that. When the script leaked a vocal minority shrieked and wailed that Liara was getting too much content, so when the game released an entire scene that had been written for Liara was shifted to Traynor. Originally it was Liara that tracked Cerberus. The amusing part is many of these same people later complained that Liara didn't do enough as Shadowbroker.
Doesn't Liara still track teh Cerberus base if you pretty much ignore Traynor throughout the game?
At any rate, the whole being clueless about the krogan females on Sur'Kesh thing was another laughable "Shadow Broken" moment. Even Wrex gets a dig at her.
You'd have to go at FTL speeds to get between systems or the trip would take years.
Doesn't Liara still track teh Cerberus base if you pretty much ignore Traynor throughout the game?
At any rate, the whole being clueless about the krogan females on Sur'Kesh thing was another laughable "Shadow Broken" moment. Even Wrex gets a dig at her.
Of course I would.
Screw saving the entire Milky Way. Let's just let Shepard and Friends hop in the Ark and retire to some beautiful alien planet, living a long happy life together. Call it, "Secret Ending 5"
Shepard warned the Council about the Reapers.
Without Shepard (and his/her team, and Liara's help as well) there would be no knowledge about an incoming galactic-wide invasion. The Council, the Alliance, and no one else would have known about it, and everyone - just like the Protheans - would have been taken by surprise. The entire POINT of the Mass Effect trilogy's main story (especially ME1's) is to show that someone (Shepard) "found out about it" and saves the galaxy from the Reapers invasion via their usual directly-through-Citadel route.
The REASON why the Arks ARE being made to start with SHOULD be in direct relation to the warning (at the very least) given by Shepard. It shows (going by Andromeda's canon view, at least from what I understand out of it for now) that SOMEONE out there important enough to take pretty big decisions believed that warning to such an extent as to prepare / organize a species-wide effort in building ships together that would ultimately be able to leave the Milky Way for Andromeda, to escape an impending doom.
So... in my view anyway:
1) Shepard probably does not actually KNOW about it...
but
2) He/she SHOULD have been told about it...
and
3) Even if he/she doesn't know about the Arks then we (well, I do) understand that they were created BECAUSE of Shepard to start with. So I'm conforting myself that Andromeda's ultimate 'connection' or homage / 'nod' to Shepard (or the original trilogy) is exactly the fact that the very reason why there were Arks being built was essentially because of - at the very least - ME1's events.
Also, I don't think that the " This is commander Shepard, signing off " Andromeda teaser was merely figurative or just symbolic. It wasn't just Shepard saying farewell to the fans of the original trilogy (and the Mass Effect's universe as a whole). I think that that exact speech in that teaser could very well have been given almost literally by him/her to the crews of the Arks before they departed (well not necessarily the very minute before they were put in stasis mode, but it could have been a speech prepared by Shepard days, weeks or heck even months ahead of time for the future crews, who knows).
If anything, in MY head canon, Shepard knew about it, and delivered that speech to the Arks' crews.
Between Soverign, Collector ship/base, human reaper, and a mass relay Shepard has a tendency to blow up large metal objects, so no I would not tell Shepard about the arks.
Nope the directive "Preserve life at any cost" As stated by both the Catalyst and the Leviathans
Limiting it to this galaxy is pure headcanon.
False. The context of your paraphrase of the quote in leviathan is wrong.
I assume you know that context can change the meaning of words, in fact context can take a group of words and actually have them mean the exact opposite. "Joe is so smart," sounds like someone is saying a person named Joe is intelligent, but the context could be that the person means the exact opposite. Joe claims that a tin foil hat will keep the aliens from reading his mind. So Cindy says in a mocking tone, "Joe is so smart." Context is "everything" to meaning.
CONTEXT is as vital if not more vital to a determine a conversations meaning than just the text.
Here are some pieces of evidence that we know about the situation of the galaxy with regards to the Leviathans, the catalyst and the other races in the galaxy at the time catalyst was created.
Leviathan were the apex of life in the GALAXY. Lesser life forms were in our thrall, serving our needs. (This establishes that the other races there servitors to the leviathans and note makes this statement in the context of THIS galaxy only. This single statement provides the context of what SCOPE the leviathan is speaking of for the entire conversation.)
Source: https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=2m26s
Leviathans grew more powerful but the servitor races could not be saved from themselves. "Over time, the species,"(note the plural), "created machines that then destroyed them. TRIBUTE does not flow from a DEAD race." (The problem is not races are dying or killing themselves off, the problem is you get no tribute from a dead people. This is the second piece of evidence for the CONTEXT of what the leviathan is telling you.)
Source: https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=2m33s
"To solve this problem,..." (Note you are specifically told right after, "tribute does not flow from a dead race." that this is the problem. So the REASON the catalyst is created is NOT to preserve life. It is created to keep tribute flowing by preserving the life of the servitor races. This is a non subtle difference. In one case the mandate is to preserve life in another the mandate to maintain tribute by preserving life. It is this "distinction" that allows for the harvests. The harvests don't make any sense if the mandate is to preserve life period. They make perfect sense if the mandate is to preserve life for tribute, because the harvests become the ultimate representation of the tribute system. The reapers take all of a race's knowledge, technology, genetic material, resources and history and "preserves" it in the form of a new reaper under the command of harbinger the first reaper who was created from harvested Leviathans. When the preservation of life is to maintain the tribute system, creating "organic living goo" for the next set of reapers to serve the Leviathan reaper Harbinger makes sense. Yet if the mandate is just to preserve life for its own sake then the solution makes no sense.
let us continue...
"To solve this problem, we created an intelligence with the mandate to preserve life at any cost." In fact you use this quote but you have removed the first part of the sentence, 'To solve this problem," A very important piece of information as it explains what the reapers are, because the entire context of what the mandate is, is in reference to the statement, "Tribute does not flow from a dead race.To solve this problem,..." Context is so vital for meaning.
Source: https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=2m51s
"As the intelligence evolved, it studied the development of civilizations. Its understanding grew until it found a solution." A solution to what? The "problem." Which was what?
"Tribute does not flow from a dead race."
There can be no misinterpretation as to what the problem is and to what the solution is for. The solution isn't to preserve life for life's sake it is to preserve life to keep tribute flowing.
Source: https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=3m1s
We are then told that the catalyst "betrayed" the leviathan race and that they were the first race harvest creating the first reaper harbinger. This further strengthens the argument that tribute is the key to the entire reaper cycle.
https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=3m10s
Again we get a FURTHER confirmation that the scope of the Leviathan's perspective on the problem was galactic not larger.
"You cannot conceive of A GALAXY that bends to your will."
This statement reaffirms the context of what scope the entire conversation is about, what scope they created the catalyst to preform within. How do we know this? Because this is telling us what perspective the Leviathans are viewing their situation and problem from. And it is clearly GALACTIC.
https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=3m29s
"There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose."
And that purpose it to keep tribute flowing. We know this because this was already identified as the PROBLEM in the conversation and that the catalyst was created for this solution. So if the catalyst is doing what it was programmed to do we can infer that the entire harvesting cycle is to provide tribute to the Leviathans in the form of Harbinger.
https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=3m52s
Further into the conversation we actually see that the scope of the catalyst itself is LIMITED to the Galaxy created yet a third piece of evidence that the catalyst was looking to create a solution on the GALACTIC scale.
"To find a solution, it required information--physical drawn from organic life in the cosmos. It created an army of pawns that searched the GALAXY, gathering this data."
If the catalyst had a mandate that spans beyond the milky way galaxy then it would have search beyond just our galaxy for a solution but it does not. Why? because again we can CLEARLY see from the conversation the entire content of the catalyst's scope is within out galaxy. We are give very explicit limitations to its scope in this conversation we constantly have the scope commented on within a galactic context.
https://youtu.be/lEqlG6bhZ80?t=4m54s
Everything the Leviathan tells us about the reapers and the "intelligence" is within the context of the above. When it talks about preservation of life it is within the context of that being a solution to the problem of tribute not flowing from a dead race. With this core context the idea that preservation of all life outside the milky way makes no sense when everything about the conversation was talked about on a galactic scale.
Did the reapers have the capability to reach other galaxies? Yes but their mandate was limited to the Galaxy and this is confirmed multiple times in the conversation and once specifically speaking about what the catalyst does to solve the problem.
Here is the evidence. Is it proof? No but i always said "evidence (not proof)" when stating there is evidence that the reapers are confined to the milky way.
What evidence do you have that the reapers are extra galactic in scope?
Despite being aware of the Crucible project, we're told by Anderson and Hackett that they won't let Shepard know where the Crucible was being constructed in secret for security purposes.
I don't recall either of them saying that in the game. Can you post a video with them saying that?
If that was seen as need to know and Shepard didn't need to know,
Shepard may not of needed to know, but she/he did know. If the genophage is sabotaged, Shepard passes the coordinates to Mordin so he can help with the project
why do we think they'd let them know about the Ark Project that was also going on?
I agree that Shepard doesn't need to know, and I posted in this thread that I wouldn't let him/her know.
Doesn't Liara still track teh Cerberus base if you pretty much ignore Traynor throughout the game?
No.
The edibot will speak up instead of Traynor, but credit is still given to Samantha
You raise a good question. Part of me feels like there will be a small link to ME:A where some part of the Normandy crew, or perhaps Hackett or Anderson , know about the ARK. Now, would I tell Shepard? no...Having said that SOMEONE from the trilogy probably knows something
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