319 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Wait a second, but if it's not different, then why not play GTA?

What's making ME so special, if they are "equally evil" and heinous.

I didn't say it isn't different. I said it isn't necessarily (or automatically) less awful. Even if I agreed - and I don't - that GTA is similar to ME in how you can be bad relatively, you're not bad in the same way. And even if you were bad in the same way, the actual style of game is totally different. I'm not sure what you're really arguing here to be honest - you started by saying you're against games that offer "grey" choices because those are really "evil" choices since you think morality is basically binary and the moral answers is obvious. You then praised Bioware for making games where you're the hero. My point is that the ME series is a bad example, because you're often not the hero.

[Seraphim24]

I didn't say it isn't different. I said it isn't necessarily (or automatically) less awful. Even if I agreed - and I don't - that GTA is similar to ME in how you can be bad relatively, you're not bad in the same way. And even if you were bad in the same way, the actual style of game is totally different. I'm not sure what you're really arguing here to be honest - you started by saying you're against games that offer "grey" choices because those are really "evil" choices since you think morality is basically binary and the moral answers is obvious. You then praised Bioware for making games where you're the hero. My point is that the ME series is a bad example, because you're often not the hero.

 

Yes but this topic is about "bad" and how you are "bad."

 

I said ME offered "traditional heroism" in greater dosage than a lot of series, because that's kinda true. I didn't say, you aren't ever bad in ME.

 

But I'm not sure why you haven't answered my question, which is well then what is the difference between GTA and ME? Not literally, substantively.

[Cyonan]

I re-edited it so it's better.

 

You guys told me, that ME is different from GTA because you kill people because you hate them racially, whereas GTA is just wanton killing.

 

Now you are saying, they are the same thing.

 

Pick.

 

What I said was that:

 

1. GTA is mass murder, not genocide. Mass Effect allows for genocide.

2. Mass Effect as a franchise isn't all that heroically oriented when you can still do a bunch of evil stuff. Only the third game can you really make an argument for this since you're forced to unite the galaxy against the Reapers.

 

I never said mass murder and genocide are the same thing. My point was specifically that they aren't the same, but they're both incredibly evil.

 

At no point have I ever claimed that Mass Effect lets you be more evil than GTA. Other people might have, but I haven't.

[Seraphim24]

What I said was that:

 

1. GTA is mass murder, not genocide. Mass Effect allows for genocide.

2. Mass Effect as a franchise isn't all that heroically oriented when you can still do a bunch of evil stuff. Only the third game can you really make an argument for this since you're forced to unite the galaxy against the Reapers.

 

I never said mass murder and genocide are the same thing. My point was specifically that they aren't the same, but they're both incredibly evil.

 

At no point have I ever claimed that Mass Effect lets you be more evil than GTA. Other people might have, but I haven't.

 

Still didn't answer my question.

[Cyonan]

Still didn't answer my question.

 

Yes I did.

 

GTA evil and Mass Effect evil are two different things.

[Seraphim24]

Yes I did.

 

GTA evil and Mass Effect evil are two different things.

 

HOW and why are they different substantively, you say technically, I say fine, but why does that matter?

[Cyonan]

HOW and why are they different substantively, you say technically, I say fine, but why does that matter?

 

They're different because of the context of the killing.

 

It matters because Mass Effect is still at least partially a RPG. Context matters when roleplaying, as is your character's reasons for doing things.

[Seraphim24]

They're different because of the context of the killing.

 

It matters because Mass Effect is still at least partially a RPG. Context matters when roleplaying, as is your character's reasons for doing things.

 

That's just technical again, of course the context is different they are defined differently you are citing technical reasons.

 

So your reasons matters yes? So I go back to what I said before, according to (some) of you guys

 

1. ME is more evil than GTA because the reasons for killing are racially motivated.

2. GTA is less evil because the killings are wanton and can be literally anyone.

[Cyonan]

That's just technical again, of course the context is different they are defined differently you are citing technical reasons.

 

So your reasons matters yes? So I go back to what I said before, according to (some) of you guys

 

1. ME is more evil than GTA because the reasons for killing are racially motivated.

2. GTA is less evil because the killings are wanton and can be literally anyone.

 

A lot of the reason why things matter in a RPG is for technical reasons like that. It goes hand in hand with roleplaying, which is a crucial element in those games.

 

I've told you like half a dozen times now that I don't think ME lets you be any more or less evil than GTA, so I have no idea why you're even reiterating those points to me.

 

I disagree with the idea that "90% of games let you participate in mass murder/genocide", but GTA isn't part of that disagreeing because it does let you do specifically that.

[Seraphim24]

A lot of the reason why things matter in a RPG is for technical reasons like that. It goes hand in hand with roleplaying, which is a crucial element in those games.

 

I've told you like half a dozen times now that I don't think ME lets you be any more or less evil than GTA, so I have no idea why you're even reiterating those points to me.

 

I disagree with the idea that "90% of games let you participate in mass murder/genocide", but GTA isn't part of that disagreeing because it does let you do specifically that.

 

If it's no more or less evil, than why doesn't GTA satisfy you?

[Cyonan]

If it's no more or less evil, than why doesn't GTA satisfy you?

 

I never said it doesn't?

 

but GTA doesn't offer the roleplaying choices that Mass Effect does. It's just a big sandbox to go play in.

[Jedi Comedian]

I never said it doesn't?

but GTA doesn't offer the roleplaying choices that Mass Effect does. It's just a big sandbox to go play in.

One of the reasons why I never liked it.

[Jedi Comedian]

GTA is more evil because the killings are wanton and can be literally anyone.

And that would be the other reason.

[Dean_the_Young]

There's no such thing as a good moral dilemma, because there's no such thing as a moral dilemma. If you understand your own moral system, making moral decisions should be simple arithmetic.

The only confusion ever is when we're not given enough information about the choices we're making (such as the option to reprogram the geth in ME2), but I would argue that this simply removes any moral component from the decision.

And I still think saving Redcliffe is an idiotic thing to do.

 

You also use peculiar definitions of commonly understood words unique to you and admit to failing to grasp basic and broadly understood social and logical constructs.

 

So, the question becomes, so what?

[Sylvius the Mad]

HOW and why are they different substantively, you say technically, I say fine, but why does that matter?

It matters if your morality says it does, but those differences are never substantive, because morality is always a baseless construct anyway.

Whenever you see a moral difference, you've made it up.

[AlanC9]

Or somebody else made it up and you're copying him, though that's not much of a difference.

[The Twilight God]

I want choices that allow Ryder to stab his squad mates in the proverbial back.  I'm talking, KOTOR levels of evil here.  Dragon Age Inquisition was sorely lacking in this.  So was Mass Effect 3.   Jade Empire nailed it though.   Can't we go back to the good old days? 
 
Make it happen. 
 
Do it. Do it. DO IT.

A little late in the game to be making requests they're not even going to look at anyway even if develop was starting next week.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Or somebody else made it up and you're copying him, though that's not much of a difference.

And then you'd still be making up the reason to listen to the other guy.

[Pasquale1234]

HOW and why are they different substantively, you say technically, I say fine, but why does that matter?

One key difference you might note in BioWare games versus sandbox games is that BioWare games have a specific "combat mode" that you shift into when the game presents enemies in your vicinity. These enemies will invariably kill you and your team if you don't kill them first. Any civilian bystanders in the area are usually not harmed. Outside of that "combat mode", you're not allowed to run around attacking people.

The sandbox games I've played allow you to run around killing "innocent bystanders" if you so choose. They don't generally differentiate between civilians and combatants.

[Sylvius the Mad]

One key difference you might note in BioWare games versus sandbox games is that BioWare games have a specific "combat mode" that you shift into when the game presents enemies in your vicinity. These enemies will invariably kill you and your team if you don't kill them first. Any civilian bystanders in the area are usually not harmed. Outside of that "combat mode", you're not allowed to run around attacking people.

I've never liked that. I prefer how BG handled it, where the game was basically always in combat mode and it was totally possible to kill bystanders by accident.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, but the way BG handled that is by having a terribly weak consequences mechanism. There's a tradeoff.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yeah, but the way BG handled that is by having a terribly weak consequences mechanism. There's a tradeoff.

It wasn't that weak. Guards became instantly hostile if you hurt civilians. That was a severe consequence, and typically sufficient to discourage one from doing it.

My goal here is to eliminate this metaphysical divide between combat and non-combat. The game should work the same all the time. What this also means is that if you think there are some bad guys in the next room, you can toss a grenade in there without first having to walk into their ambush.

We need to be able to initiate combat, and not just when the devs expect us to.

[Draining Dragon]

I'd love it if the game let us kill absolutely anyone, like in Morrowind. When you killed an essential NPC, you received the message:

"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."

Granted, allowing you to continue playing after ruining the storyline might not work as well in the Mass Effect series, but non-standard game overs are always fun.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I'd love it if the game let us kill absolutely anyone, like in Morrowind. When you killed an essential NPC, you received the message:

"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."

Granted, allowing you to continue playing after ruining the storyline might not work as well in the Mass Effect series, but non-standard game overs are always fun.

 

At least Bethesda left a back door option into the main plot, but that required some actual, y'know, work and thought on the player's part. At least at launch, these days they'd just read a walkthrough.

[Neon Rising Winter]

I'd love it if the game let us kill absolutely anyone, like in Morrowind. When you killed an essential NPC, you received the message:

"With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created."

Granted, allowing you to continue playing after ruining the storyline might not work as well in the Mass Effect series, but non-standard game overs are always fun.

 

We could go all retro. Sure you can do things that will irrevocably mess up the game and make you unable to complete it. Go right ahead. What, you want to be warned when you've done that? Oh no, you just keep going and in a few hours it should become apparent.