319 réponses à ce sujet

[TurianSpectre]

Yeah but Kotor 1 levels of evil or Kotor 2 levels of evil? Because there's a difference:

 

KOTOR 2 all the way

[maia0407]

Some people seem to forget, that biggest atrocities humanity have seen were done by military. Ideology can drown world in blood, piracy can't.

I wouldn't want to play a pirate that was a pirate for no other reason than they enjoyed a criminal lifestyle. Now, if Ryder were put in a situation where she had the choice to raid some rare materials being carried on an alien's ship and kill the crew to get it or let one of our colonies die, that would be interesting.

[Heimerdinger]

Since humans are technically the invaders in this galaxy there should be a renegade option to raid other races. Pay the iron price.

[maia0407]

Since humans are technically the invaders in this galaxy there should be a renegade option to raid other races. Pay the iron price.

Yeah, it could be written as a desperate choice to secure resources for our people since we only have what we brought with us. I'd just prefer to keep raping and vicious murders out of it for the protagonist. Maybe we find out one of the squads is committing atrocities above and beyond the stealing and murdering (ugh, can't believe I'm writing that) we see as necessary for survival and we go after them.

[KirkyX]

KOTOR 2 all the way

 

"What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good deed I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now."

 

KotOR II might actually be my favourite game. It's definitely my favourite Star Wars game. (Hell, it's probably my favourite Star Wars thing, and I love four of those movies, and both major TV shows.)

[Heimerdinger]

Yeah, it could be written as a desperate choice to secure resources for our people since we only have what we brought with us. I'd just prefer to keep raping and vicious murders out of it for the protagonist. Maybe we find out one of the squads is committing atrocities above and beyond the stealing and murdering (ugh, can't believe I'm writing that) we see as necessary for survival and we go after them.

 

Not necessarily desperate. You can't actually build your character as a hero if the good path is automatically chosen for you, you're just along for the ride. You're not building anything. If there are easy but more evil options but you decide not to take that path then you're actively building your character as a hero.

 

And besides, I'm sure a lot of players would pick the evil options for roleplaying reasons, I know i did in DAO.  That game allowed me to create such different protagonists when it came to personality and motivations. One of the reason for that was the existence of these anti-hero choices. Some downright evil, some more grey area.

[In Exile]

"What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good deed I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now."

KotOR II might actually be my favourite game. It's definitely my favourite Star Wars game. (Hell, it's probably my favourite Star Wars thing, and I love four of those movies, and both major TV shows.)

It's a clever deconstruction when it isn't being overly preachy, but it misses the point of Star Wars, which is pure serial pulp.

[UpUpAway]

A VR Sims like game would rake in billions.

 

People would courageously act like who they want to be due to having complete control over their char

 

I didn't say that Med's game vision wouldn't make money... just that Med and every other player would have to essentially write such a game themselves from scratch... everything from the setting to the dialogue to the premise of the situation to the art design of their clothing and appearance (not just selecting from options in a CIC)... otherwise the author (in this case Bioware) retains at least some control of the character... ALWAYS.  There are games that give people more control... but "complete" control is just an illusion.  In addition, Med wants complete predictability. (Something I definitely don't want because I enjoy some plot twists... even if they're a little illogical at times as a result).  Med also wants the entire book written on the book jacket.  Really, he might as well just buy a game engine and go to work.

 

 I really don't see how Bioware can make the plot both looser (allowing for more choice) and tighter at the same time without really expanding the production budget of the game.  How much they spend on each game is their business.  It doesn't matter what profit it might make when it gets to release if the company goes bankrupt before it gets to release.

[ssanyesz]

I wouldn't want to play a pirate that was a pirate for no other reason than they enjoyed a criminal lifestyle. Now, if Ryder were put in a situation where she had the choice to raid some rare materials being carried on an alien's ship and kill the crew to get it or let one of our colonies die, that would be interesting.

 

I'd like to see something similar too. Depending on situation (or leaving condition of the Milky Way galaxy), it sould be the players choice to let Ryder intercept alien ships and/or raid settlements and leaving survivors alive (or not), because we sorely need resources to survive, or simply because Ryder can.

 

 

Yeah, it could be written as a desperate choice to secure resources for our people since we only have what we brought with us. I'd just prefer to keep raping and vicious murders out of it for the protagonist. Maybe we find out one of the squads is committing atrocities above and beyond the stealing and murdering (ugh, can't believe I'm writing that) we see as necessary for survival and we go after them.

 

Ryder could be doing those deeds out of necessity or because he/she can.

 

 

Not necessarily desperate. You can't actually build your character as a hero if the good path is automatically chosen for you, you're just along for the ride. You're not building anything. If there are easy but more evil options but you decide not to take that path then you're actively building your character as a hero.

 

And besides, I'm sure a lot of players would pick the evil options for roleplaying reasons, I know i did in DAO.  That game allowed me to create such different protagonists when it came to personality and motivations. One of the reason for that was the existence of these anti-hero choices. Some downright evil, some more grey area.

 

And if we leave because of the Reaper threat and/or before we know how the war ended, then what would we do to ensure humanity's survivor in an unknown galaxy with limited resoures no way home, no help is coming, as far as we know the Reapers could have wiped out everyone in Milky Way, we're humanity's last remnants, so it is up to us how we deal with it. Or at least it should be.

[Shechinah]

It's a clever deconstruction when it isn't being overly preachy, but it misses the point of Star Wars, which is pure serial pulp.

 

I once heard it described that KOTOR is a reconstruction of Star Wars tropes while KOTOR 2 is a deconstruction of Star Wars tropes.
 

[Nashiktal]

Genocide isn't evil?

Doing evil acts and being an evil character are two separate things.

Shepard committed genocide against the Batarians. He tried to give early warning, tried to do right, but he still did it.

Is Shepard evil?

[Patricia08]

I want choices that allow Ryder to stab his squad mates in the proverbial back.  I'm talking, KOTOR levels of evil here.  Dragon Age Inquisition was sorely lacking in this.  So was Mass Effect 3.   Jade Empire nailed it though.   Can't we back to the good old days? 

 

Make it happen. 

 

Do it. Do it. DO IT. 

 

Uhm i don't want to stab my squad mates in the back but when the game would be like KotOR when it comes to be dark then i would really like that to. I tried that to in Inquisition but i hated it being dark in that game.  

 

So yeah make it happen Bioware.

[Nashiktal]

I should note that I would love to play an evil game. My fantasy game would be one where I could be a necromancer, a necromancer who could raise fallen heroes to be my champions.

Some games brush that dream, but none have reached it yet.

[RoboticWater]

It's a clever deconstruction when it isn't being overly preachy, but it misses the point of Star Wars, which is pure serial pulp.

I listened to an interview of Chris Avellone where he described the thought process that went into writing the game.

 

KoTOR II's story is essentially the writing team's (though mainly Avellone's) reaction to the prequels and other incongruities of the universe. It overcorrected on a narrative that had strayed too far into the serial pulp while loosing the depth–and there was depth–of the original. It was preachy, but that was the result of a Star Wars nerd's insistence that the universe wasn't just pulp.

[Indigenous]

Most Bioware games give the main character a goal they must achieve at any cost or something bad will happen. The main character should be able to do whatever they possible can to achieve their goal. 

 

There is nothing that is objectively evil. I believe, to be evil, someone will have to purposely do something they believe is evil for the sake of being evil and that doesn't really happen. Also that would be a pointless action in a bioware world. Killing a squad mate 'just because' probably won't fit in with the story.

 

Anyway, I will be happy if we are given difficult choices to make. Sacrifice a companion to save millions of people, or a child, or something other than another companion. Sacrificing a child to save a companion is probably the choice most of us would make. It would be nice to see if denizens of that world reacted differently to you.  Or having a companion decide they have had enough of your ruthlessness and decide to stand in your way and you are forced to kill them. 

 

As long as it adds to the story.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I've said it before and I'll say it again... if you want "complete" control over your character, you're just going to have to write your own game from scratch. Otherwise, you're playing Bioware's character and you're being allowed to "modify" him/her within their set parameters. The parameters are set by the amount of voiced dialogue they do and the situations they set up in the first place... and they have to do all of that within a budget and within a narrow enough story that they can, if they want, produce a second installment.

None of that precludes what I said.

But the moment-to-moment decisions of the character are ours to make, and we can't make them is a way that is reliably consistent with the character's personality unless we can control that personality within the available parameters.

No one is asking for complete freedom to have the character be anyone or do anything, and such a thing isn't necessary for us to have perfect control. Control and freedom are not the same thing.

But we do need to know what those parameters are, and we need to know those (as they pertain to the character's personality) in advance. Does the character have to be loyal and duty-bound? That's something they absolutely cannot spring on us during the game. By then we will have made too many choices already which might be incompatible with that design, so we need to know about those limitations at the start.

If you don't want to live within the limitations of a cinematic action RPG, you're going to have to play something else. If you want an explicit description of the game before you buy the game... wait until the YouTubers put up their playthroughs and watch them or wait until after the Wiki gets written and read that... some of us like to be surprised now and then.

I want zero spoilers about the events in the game or the NPCs in the game. I don't think they should tell us anything at all about potential squadmates, for example (not even their names, or how many there are).

But being surprised by the character I'm playing is absolutely never acceptable. In fact, it's not even possible. If the character ever surprises me, that means I'm watching him, not playing him.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sure, if I actively try to make the Warden fail. It's like having everyone, including Shepard, die in the suicide mission. Sure, it's possible, but you have to know exactly how to do it or just be bad at building a character that can fight. If Sten fought my Warden, he'd die full stop or quickly surrender. There's just no way he'd beat my Warden with any weapons or any of his abilities unlocked unless I just let her stand there.

I didn't build my character to fail. But I also didn't build my character to succeed. I built my character in a way that was consistent with his personality, which was cowardly and selfish and completely devoid of meaningful introspection. He had a very high opinion of himself, but it was misplaced, because he never took any useful steps toward his grand plans; he just kept making new ones. He was like an internet troll: he complained about what everyone else did but never did anything himself.

And he never learned any combat skills, because he wanted an excuse not to engage in combat. Up to the point when Sten killed him, he'd never even fallen in battle, because he didn't fight in battles. He backed down, or let other people fight for him. He was a city elf, and he was so excited when Vaughan offered to pay him to go away rather than fight him.

That was a great character to play.

[Arcian]

 

"What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good deed I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now."

 

KotOR II might actually be my favourite game. It's definitely my favourite Star Wars game. (Hell, it's probably my favourite Star Wars thing, and I love four of those movies, and both major TV shows.)

It is certainly the best written Star Wars game. The confrontation with the Jedi Council in the ruins of Dantooine (assuming one played Light Side) remains one of my favorite scenes in gaming. Chris Avellone truly is a god with the pen, and it's such a shame he's left Obsidian. What I wouldn't give to see what he could do with Mass Effect...

[UpUpAway]

None of that precludes what I said.

But the moment-to-moment decisions of the character are ours to make, and we can't make them is a way that is reliably consistent with the character's personality unless we can control that personality within the available parameters.

No one is asking for complete freedom to have the character be anyone or do anything, and such a thing isn't necessary for us to have perfect control. Control and freedom are not the same thing.

But we do need to know what those parameters are, and we need to know those (as they pertain to the character's personality) in advance. Does the character have to be loyal and duty-bound? That's something they absolutely cannot spring on us during the game. By then we will have made too many choices already which might be incompatible with that design, so we need to know about those limitations at the start.
I want zero spoilers about the events in the game or the NPCs in the game. I don't think they should tell us anything at all about potential squadmates, for example (not even their names, or how many there are).

But being surprised by the character I'm playing is absolutely never acceptable. In fact, it's not even possible. If the character ever surprises me, that means I'm watching him, not playing him.

 

In that context then, we were explicitly told that Shepard was, in fact, duty bound - He is an Alliance Soldier from the outset with the lowly rank of Commander only.  In ME2, he goes rogue, but in ME3, he's reinstated at the same rank.  He still fully answers to both Hackett and Anderson.  Nothing in Hackett's reinstatement email tells Shepard that he does not still answer to Hackett.  The boundaries of his duties are clearly set out there and re-iterated several times in his subsequent conversations with Hackett.  If you somehow don't think this was explicit enough - that's a problem originating within you... not the writing of the series.  Simply put - Some individuals are simply more easily surprised than others... what I find "explicit," you obviously do not.

[Monk]

I should note that I would love to play an evil game. My fantasy game would be one where I could be a necromancer, a necromancer who could raise fallen heroes to be my champions.

Some games brush that dream, but none have reached it yet.

 

There's a way, though it's mainly head canon. When in a fight, just lead your squadmates to their deaths then bring them back as soon as you reach them. And figure that with every new rise, they're just a little deader inside until, towards the end of the game, they're just talking automatons doing your will. Tah-dah! You're a necromancer!

[Arcian]

Doing evil acts and being an evil character are two separate things.

Shepard committed genocide against the Batarians. He tried to give early warning, tried to do right, but he still did it.

Is Shepard evil?

Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire race. Shepard caused the deaths of less than 0.1% of the total galactic batarian population, as collateral damage. They weren't even the main target.

[TurianSpectre]

Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire race. Shepard caused the deaths of less than 0.1% of the total galactic batarian population, as collateral damage. They weren't even the main target.

Yeah i agree with that, you cant condemn someone for genocide when they gave an early warning to evacuate

[Nashiktal]

Genocide is the systematic destruction of an entire race. Shepard caused the deaths of less than 0.1% of the total galactic batarian population, as collateral damage. They weren't even the main target.

Actually no, that is not the definition of genocide.

"gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre; annihilation, extermination, elimination, liquidation, eradication, decimation, butchery, bloodletting; pogrom, ethnic cleansing, holocaust."

Shepard committed genocide.

Eve if that is a small number for the overall Batarians race, it was the complete annihilation of that planets population.

Thus genocide.

[Sylvius the Mad]

People often will surprise themselves with what they'll do, so it's not a true statement to say that your own behaviour should always be predictable by you.

Those people are lunatics.

I'd rather not play a lunatic. I know what I'm going to do moment-to-moment. If you don't, I'm legitimately afraid of you.

(let's be honest - in real life I'm afraid of everyone)

When people get desperate they do desperate things, which is easy enough to use to explain away any "inconsistency" in a character.

What about when they're not desperate?

And shouldn't the player be the one to decide when the character is desperate? Even if the character were to act in a way that he couldn't have predicted in advance, the player should still know what's going to happen because the player is the one pressing the buttons. The player should have better knowledge about the character than the character has about himself.

I often see you seemingly willfully misunderstanding me or flat out ignoring my argument points. I figured I would give it a try.

That's not helpful.

[Patricia08]

 

I really don't like this woman what a b*tch always snooping around in my head.