319 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Choosing to kill rachni queen is technically genocide. And sabotaging genophage cure is something similar. So the precedent exists.

In my opinion instead of paragon and renegade we should have a choice of being pro-milky way or pro-andromeda. For example you land on the planet and learn that krogans got into conflict with natives over some resources, escalating to full blown violence. You can chose to help krogan or natives, with lasting pros and cons.

The rachi queen is an interesting discussion point because it illustrates that the definition of genocide is actually anthropocentric. It's not well suited to killing the last member of a group (hard to say it's 'systematic') because human groups by their nature don't propagate through a single member. At the same time, the dialogue is pretty clear that Shepard is doing this for genocide reasons.

[Cyonan]

I'm simply declaring them to be lunatics. I do not trust them.

 

That's a useless statement to this discussion unless you're going to make an actual argument as to why.

 

But the reason needs to come before the event, not after. Otherwise we won't be able to experience the consequences from the proper mental state. The rest of the scene would effectively be spoiled for us before we're ready to consume it.

 

We're talking about the player being a prostitute in order to pay off crippling debt. The event never actually happens in-game and you get to decide when it happens and why it happens if we're going to 100% headcanon it even happening in the first place.

 

Which is how it would work in both KotoR and Mass Effect.

 

This isn't a discussion about your personal hatred of the paraphrasing. This is me claiming that if headcanoning that scenario is possible for you in KotoR, it should also be possible in Mass Effect.

[Sylvius the Mad]

They have made clear enough already what our primary objective will be, and they didn't even talk that much about the game, yet.

It might be an objective, but that doesn't necessarily make it the primary objective.

Has BioWare ever actually forced a primary objective on us? I don't think they have.

i think you have, and you'll definitely have more, enough info to determine that our character has determinate goal or goals, which won't fit with your example of being a space pirate.

Now I'm tempted to play MEA just to prove you wrong.

But I won't touch it if I have to aim and fire my weapon in real time.

That's assuming Bioware isn't itneresting non-interactive cinematics, or stuff you don't like. Some members of the DA team stated already that they're going back to DAO/DA2 in certain features, like the non cinematic dialogues, which where things you enjoyed.

I'd really like to go back to the NWN design, with no cinematic dialogue at all. Just put all the dialogue and combat feedback in a text box.

MEA might seem more sandbox compared to the previous ME games, but I think it'd be better if you keep in mind that it might worse, for your type of preference, compared to DAI.

It will almost certainly be worse than DAI. DAI is one of BioWare's best games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That's a useless statement to this discussion unless you're going to make an actual argument as to why.

I have a hard enough time believing that other people exist. When they act as you describe, that only makes it harder.

I'm not trying to persuade you that they are crazy. I'm trying to give them an incentive not to be.

We're talking about the player being a prostitute in order to pay off crippling debt. The event never actually happens in-game and you get to decide when it happens and why it happens if we're going to 100% headcanon it even happening in the first place.

Which is how it would work in both KotoR and Mass Effect.

This isn't a discussion about your personal hatred of the paraphrasing. This is me claiming that if headcanoning that scenario is possible for you in KotoR, it should also be possible in Mass Effect.

And that would be true, except the paraphrasing makes it harder to maintain a coherent character design the writers didn't specifically foresee. In KotOR, the character will only be forced to speak incompatible dialogue option if all of the options are incompatible. In ME, the character might be forced to speak incompatible dialogue at any time.

The design is less likely to succeed in ME because the player can only pick the correct path by chance, and even then could be undone by a non-interactive cutscene.

If it can be done in KotOR, then doing it is simply a matter of choosing to do so and then following the steps. In ME, however, the steps are invisible.

[The Elder King]

It might be an objective, but that doesn't necessarily make it the primary objective.
Has BioWare ever actually forced a primary objective on us? I don't think they have.
Now I'm tempted to play MEA just to prove you wrong.
But I won't touch it if I have to aim and fire my weapon in real time.
I'd really like to go back to the NWN design, with no cinematic dialogue at all. Just put all the dialogue and combat feedback in a text box.
It will almost certainly be worse than DAI. DAI is one of BioWare's best games.

1) I think they have, if you follow the main story to the end. You're forced to stop the Blight, Saren, the Collectors, the Reapers. If you stop during the game in certain situations, you might headcanon that your character didn't want to follow that particular goal, but not if you go through the end.
2) Well, I hope the mechanic will still be here. I'd like to see how you'd fit in the game.
I'm not again headcanon, quite the opposite actually. I just think Bioware games, like many others, have generally limits in how much you can headcanon.
If we want to go technical, there might be some enemy ships or camps we might pillage, so you might follow the game's goal and headcanon you're a space pirate, but you still wouldn't be considered one by people, so you'll have to ignore dialogues.
3)I doubt Bioware is ever going that road again.
4) Based on your values, I agree, it'll be almost certainly inferior.

[General TSAR]

You can passively commit genocide and shoot the daughter of someone who just killed herself.

 

How can you get more "evil" than that?

[Jedi Comedian]

You can passively commit genocide and shoot the daughter of someone who just killed herself.

How can you get more "evil" than that?

IMO DAO is better in that regard, but of course it's a completely different game.

[NUM13ER]

I have no problem with outwardly villianous options, provided anyone stupid enough to actually take them finds themselves under a mutiny, executed or abandoned on a lifeless rock by their allies. Their reward a nice Game Over screen or better yet just the credits.

The majority of people wanting to be evil don't really want realistic consequences.

[Arcian]

it's not even the best written KoTOR. 

People are just too easily impressed by a few dialogues with a little more depth. 

And Kreia is a subtle as a punch to the face. I hope there are no characters like that in Andromeda.

>Kotor 1
>Best written Kotor

[Arcian]

You can passively commit genocide and shoot the daughter of someone who just killed herself.

 

How can you get more "evil" than that?

Besides playing as Ramsay Snow IN SPACE?

[AlanC9]

At the end - anything but a "destroy" decision requires a Shepard who is, in fact, not completely loyal. Hackett's orders are clear "Destroy the reapers" - to do anything else is to disobey orders. If you, the player, decides that Shepard is not a loyal soldier and you select the action of either controlling or synthesizing or refusing to act, you, the player, are acknowledging that your decision is "important" enough to your Shepard to warrant him/her commtting treason to accomplish it.

I don't think this works if the geth are still around and Shepard believes them to be sentient beings. An order to commit genocide as collateral damage wouldn't be a legitimate order in the first place; in fact, Shepard would be required to disobey it.

I'm also not quite sure what current doctrine says about obeying orders whose premises turn out to be divorced from reality.

[In Exile]

I don't think this works if the geth are still around and Shepard believes them to be sentient beings. An order to commit genocide as collateral damage wouldn't be a legitimate order in the first place; in fact, Shepard would be required to disobey it.

I'm also not quite sure what current doctrine says about obeying orders whose premises turn out to be divorced from reality.

Yeah - "don't commit war crimes" tends to be basic. But more to the point Shepard is a Spectre at that point: it doesn't matter what Hackett orders.

[Cyonan]

I have a hard enough time believing that other people exist. When they act as you describe, that only makes it harder.

I'm not trying to persuade you that they are crazy. I'm trying to give them an incentive not to be.

 

Unless the person has some kind of personal interest in you not thinking them a lunatic, you've offered no incentives either.

 

And that would be true, except the paraphrasing makes it harder to maintain a coherent character design the writers didn't specifically foresee. In KotOR, the character will only be forced to speak incompatible dialogue option if all of the options are incompatible. In ME, the character might be forced to speak incompatible dialogue at any time.

The design is less likely to succeed in ME because the player can only pick the correct path by chance, and even then could be undone by a non-interactive cutscene.

If it can be done in KotOR, then doing it is simply a matter of choosing to do so and then following the steps. In ME, however, the steps are invisible.

 

It merely makes it a bit more difficult to do(which RPing in general is more difficult to do in Mass Effect), but it doesn't make it outright impossible. Headcanoning such a scenario is still viable in both Kotor and Mass Effect.

 

I'd probably have a harder time explaining why my character has this crippling debt they're resorting to prostitution to solve when I'm running around with far more money than I actually need that I'm certainly not spending on equipment or anything else.

 

but that would hinder the whole thing in both KotoR and Mass Effect.

[Hammerstorm]

You can passively commit genocide and shoot the daughter of someone who just killed herself.

 

How can you get more "evil" than that?

 

Send a unarmed and untrained volus that have is on a biotic trip to fight the evil biotic boss of a mercenary group? that is being "evil just for the lol". 

 

 

Off topic:

Am I the only one that suspect that Sylvius is an AI? 

[KaiserShep]

That sort of character design would havewould have totally worked in KotOR.
Headcanon FTW.
If we were worried about zots we'd stop wasting them on non-interactive cinematics.

I can't speak for KOTOR, but the possibilities are never endless no matter how the game is designed. Cut the cinematic bits, dump audible dialogue and reduce everything to an isometric relic and you'd still have limitations. It'd at least save BW a lot of money, but it would have to since it would probably tank commercially.

[dreamgazer]

You can passively commit genocide and shoot the daughter of someone who just killed herself.
 
How can you get more "evil" than that?

Actively committing genocide and shooting both the mother and the daughter?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Shepard knew the Batarians would die if he destroyed the relay.

But fine; then what about mindful massacre? Informed Annihilation of innocent men, women, and children? (Plus the rest of the Batarians there.) Preinformed but regretful butchery?


Shepard caused an extinction event so massive that planet is dead. And he was aware of this when he activated the project.

What planet? The planet, and the entire star system, is gone. A Mass Relay being destroyed causes a destructive force equivalent to a supernova. That star system is nothing but dust and echoes now. 

 

Shepard committed a holocaust. There is no question about that. 

Holocaust: destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war.

[Sylvius the Mad]

1) I think they have, if you follow the main story to the end. You're forced to stop the Blight, Saren, the Collectors, the Reapers.

But that doesn't mean it was your character's primary objective. It just means your character did it. Not why, nor whether it was just a stepping stone on the way to do something else.

4) Based on your values, I agree, it'll be almost certainly inferior.

But it could end up being the best ME game, a crown I think is currently held by the first one (and it's not close).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Off topic:
Am I the only one that suspect that Sylvius is an AI?

There's a non-zero chance I would fail a Turing test.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Unless the person has some kind of personal interest in you not thinking them a lunatic, you've offered no incentives either.

I suspect they would prefer that I think them real, as that would be a necessary condition for me to grant them moral worth or throw them a rope when drowning.

It merely makes it a bit more difficult to do(which RPing in general is more difficult to do in Mass Effect), but it doesn't make it outright impossible.

It might make it impossible without foreknowledge, which is typically only available across multiple attempts.

But otherwise you are correct.

Headcanoning such a scenario is still viable in both Kotor and Mass Effect.

If you're willing the metagame, perhaps.

I'd probably have a harder time explaining why my character has this crippling debt they're resorting to prostitution to solve when I'm running around with far more money than I actually need that I'm certainly not spending on equipment or anything else.

That's easy. The debt might not be monetary.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I can't speak for KOTOR, but the possibilities are never endless no matter how the game is designed. Cut the cinematic bits, dump audible dialogue and reduce everything to an isometric relic and you'd still have limitations.

Again, no one is asking for zero limitations. Just to know what they are before they break your character.

[Nashiktal]

If that's the case, would that also apply to Hackett and his team, if the dlc isn't completed?

Yes, but with the added bonus of war crimes.

I'm also reminded of the heretic geth. Depending on whether you classify the geth as alive, you commit genocide against the heretics. Or mass "brainwash" them.

Mass Effect had some dark moments now that I think about it.

[Drakoriz]

some of the ideas i read here about how much freedom some ppl want for games, first dont fit on a ME game (if i focus on how the first and only trilogy was)

 

And second it fit more a writing story or a pen and paper RPG that a video game.

 

By the way Open world dont mend freedom to do whatever you want.

[UpUpAway]

I don't think this works if the geth are still around and Shepard believes them to be sentient beings. An order to commit genocide as collateral damage wouldn't be a legitimate order in the first place; in fact, Shepard would be required to disobey it.

I'm also not quite sure what current doctrine says about obeying orders whose premises turn out to be divorced from reality.

 

I'm not saying the whole thing isn't a moral dilemma... it obviously is.  (There is a theme of moral questioning going on about just what a soldier's duty entails throughout the 3 games.  This is touched on, for example, when EDI asks Shepard if he/she believes people under his/her command should be able to disobey orders on moral grounds.)  The player is being asked to decide for themselves... if they think that makes Shepard the evil character they claim to want to be allowed to play, so be it... their choice.  It's not a choice without consequence; and if Shepard does decide to disobey Hackett's orders, he/she would presumeably have to defend that decision in a courts martial hearing (That is, it would not just be arbitrarily declared to have been an illegal order).

 

The fact remains, Shepard in ME3 is "duty bound" - he serves in the Alliance and Bioware has obviously set up the game that, even though Shepard is a Spectre, he still answers to Hackett as long as he has an official rank in the Alliance (which he does in ME3, but not in ME2).  In ME2, it is possible that he is still a Spectre (duty bound to the Council), but it is clear that he is not, at that point in time, in the Alliance.  In ME3, when Sporatus either upholds or re-instates Shepard as a Spectre, it is very clear what the boundaries of that are.  The Council is just making "certain resources" available to Shepard and the Council will otherwise "turn a blind eye" - They are not removing Shepard from the Alliance.

 

When Shepard first receives his Spectre status in ME1, it's a bit muddled... reflecting a disagreement among the Alliance brass as to what degree Shepard is still duty bound to the Alliance after becoming a Spectre.  We see that reflected in several ways - e.g. When Anderson says, "you don't answer to me," compared to when Mikhailovich says "just remember that when I ask you to jump." (or something similar).  Hackett acknowledges that Shepard may not be as duty bound to his orders as he would be without being a Spectre, but falls back on the position that Shepard is "still human."  Still, explicitly before buying the game... Shepard IS duty bound as he is explicitly described as being a Commander in the Alliance.

[The Elder King]

But that doesn't mean it was your character's primary objective. It just means your character did it. Not why, nor whether it was just a stepping stone on the way to do something else.
But it could end up being the best ME game, a crown I think is currently held by the first one (and it's not close).

That's fair, though I don't think every game gives the same degree of freedom about this.