186 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Fact; Drew's dark energy ending never made it past the conceptual phase, therefore it is just an idea, not an actual ending.

 

People keep forgetting/ignoring this little detail

 

How does one go from an awful basic concept to a good ending? I suppose Bio could have thrown out the basic concept and substituted a good one, but at that point we're not talking about the same ending anymore even if it shares the "dark energy" name.

But let's test it. You've got the concept. Come up with a non-awful implementation. Or use the concept from the existing endings; that might be more fun.

This reminds me of a story about Jim Butcher.  He got into an argument about whether good writing can take a terrible idea and make it into a good story.  HE asserted it was possible.  He was so confident that he challenged the person to give him not one but two terrible ideas and he'd make a good story out of them.  He was given "The Lost Roman Legion" and "Pokemon" as ideas.

 

The result was the Codex Alera series  

[AlanC9]

I'm not convinced those are terrible ideas, though -- the Lost Roman Legion is kinda fun, and has been used plenty., and I don't have a good grasp of what theidea of Pokemon is. But I'm not familiar enough with Codex Alera to discuss this intelligently.

I don't think anyone's forgetting that dark energy was just a concept. But it was a bad concept; everything you hated about the ending we got is baked into the concept. Unless we're saying that the entirety of the concept is "something something Dark Energy" and the rest is implementation?

[RoboticWater]

This reminds me of a story about Jim Butcher.  He got into an argument about whether good writing can take a terrible idea and make it into a good story.  HE asserted it was possible.  He was so confident that he challenged the person to give him not one but two terrible ideas and he'd make a good story out of them.  He was given "The Lost Roman Legion" and "Pokemon" as ideas.

I think it's possible to make a good story from any concept, good or bad, especially if the concepts are fairly generic tropes. You just need a decent enough writer with enough determination. However, it's significantly more (even prohibitively) difficult to make a decent ending from a terrible concept given the constraints of an existing narrative. Some concepts just can't fit in certain frameworks without needing to alter the plot, tone, and/or themes of that framework.

[Han Shot First]

I don't think anyone's forgetting that dark energy was just a concept. But it was a bad concept; everything you hated about the ending we got is baked into the concept. Unless we're saying that the entirety of the concept is "something something Dark Energy" and the rest is implementation?

The dark energy concept is also responsible for one of the most hated aspects of the shipped endings. The Reapers as slightly misunderstood problem-solvers began there. Mac may have scrapped everything related to dark energy, but he kept that. He also toned it down by having the Reapers only trying to prevent a hypothetical technological singularity, rather than trying to prevent an accelerating heat death of the universe.

I'm not sure how anyone can dislike the shipped endings and yet think the dark energy concept sounds interesting. The dark energy concept is everything that was bad about the shipped endings squared.

[Paul E Dangerously]

The dark energy concept is also responsible for one of the most hated aspects of the shipped endings. The Reapers as slightly misunderstood problem-solvers began there. Mac may have scrapped everything related to dark energy, but he kept that. He also toned it down by having the Reapers only trying to prevent a hypothetical technological singularity, rather than trying to prevent an accelerating heat death of the universe.

I'm not sure how anyone can dislike the shipped endings and yet think the dark energy concept sounds interesting. The dark energy concept is everything that was bad about the shipped endings squared.

 

In the hopes that the other ending was a little more complex than "button press", maybe.

[Spectr61]

How does one go from an awful basic concept to a good ending? I suppose Bio could have thrown out the basic concept and substituted a good one, but at that point we're not talking about the same ending anymore even if it shares the "dark energy" name.
But let's test it. You've got the concept. Come up with a non-awful implementation. Or use the concept from the existing endings; that might be more fun.

I am not saying that the conceptual dark energy ending would have been either better or worse than what was delivered. Only that it was conceptual, not actual. And that an unfinalized, incomplete idea for an ending cannot be either better or worse than an an actual existing ending because it doesn't exist and is therefore impossible to evaluate.

There are obviously many ways Drew's potential dark energy ending could have been finalized, but since in never was, we cannot evaluate it. We can forecast how we think it might have turned out, based on our own assumptions and our evaluations of his past performance, but opinion on what might have been is not factual, merely a subjective opinion.

To state otherwise, as some have done, is confusing subjective opinion for fact.

[Spectr61]

People keep forgetting/ignoring this little detail
 

This reminds me of a story about Jim Butcher.  He got into an argument about whether good writing can take a terrible idea and make it into a good story.  HE asserted it was possible.  He was so confident that he challenged the person to give him not one but two terrible ideas and he'd make a good story out of them.  He was given "The Lost Roman Legion" and "Pokemon" as ideas.
 
The result was the Codex Alera series  

I am no writer,

but if I were to be challenged ( like AlanC9 posted ),

or declared the impossibility of creating a good ending from the dark energy concept ( like Undead Han posted ).

I would find out where Chris L'Etoile is,

and figure out a way to get him to write it.

[Silvos]

Great, another opinion.

Care to weigh in on the discussion. or just troll by casting aspersions?

 

Sure. To argue so adamantly that the quality of the dark energy ending can't ever be compared to the actual ending is head-scratchingly pedantic. Just because the idea was never utilized doesn't mean it's quality is unknowable. It was a terrible idea, full-stop. It's even more irrational than "Yo Dawg" so there is a logical, objective measure of quality to make a comparison.

To give a comparison, the original script for Terminator:Salvation ended with John Conner dying, his face being put on that human-Terminator thing for the purposes of identity theft, and the revelation that Skynet's actual goal was to save humanity from itself. It even had a scene with a select group of humans living in a giant, secret mansion, being pampered and served by Terminators. Now the final movie is not good, but it's a whole hell of a lot better than that. But if we were to accept your logic, Terminator:Salvation's original "Yo Dawg" ending cannot ever be compared to the final product because it didn't make it onto the screen. It's irrational.

[Spectr61]

Sure. To argue so adamantly that the quality of the dark energy ending can't ever be compared to the actual ending is head-scratchingly pedantic. Just because the idea was never utilized doesn't mean it's quality is unknowable. It was a terrible idea, full-stop. It's even more irrational than "Yo Dawg" so there is a logical, objective measure of quality to make a comparison.
To give a comparison, the original script for Terminator:Salvation ended with John Conner dying, his face being put on that human-Terminator thing for the purposes of identity theft, and the revelation that Skynet's actual goal was to save humanity from itself. It even had a scene with a select group of humans living in a giant, secret mansion, being pampered and served by Terminators. Now the final movie is not good, but it's a whole hell of a lot better than that. But if we were to accept your logic, Terminator:Salvation's original "Yo Dawg" ending cannot ever be compared to the final product because it didn't make it onto the screen. It's irrational.

OK, same story -

It was never finished. How do you know it wouldn't have been changed before finalization?

And I'm not quite sure what "Yo Dawg" has to do with anything. Unless you are a fan of American Idol.

[Silvos]

OK, same story -

It was never finished. How do you know it wouldn't have been changed before finalization?

So you took "irrationally pedantic" as a challenge?
 

And I'm not quite sure what "Yo Dawg" has to do with anything. Unless you are a fan of American Idol.

[AlanC9]

In the hopes that the other ending was a little more complex than "button press", maybe.

It's conceivable, but I don't remember anybody complaining that the main problem with ME3's ending was the simplicity. You could make that case against the whole final mission, maybe, although it's no simpler than the ME1 final mission.

[AlanC9]

Great, another opinion.

That's what we're here for, isn't it? That and rational discussion.

[AlanC9]

I am not saying that the conceptual dark energy ending would have been either better or worse than what was delivered. Only that it was conceptual, not actual. And that an unfinalized, incomplete idea for an ending cannot be either better or worse than an an actual existing ending because it doesn't exist and is therefore impossible to evaluate.

I think this is, bluntly, nonsense. Unless the basic concepts of the proposed Dark Energy ending were thrown out, they'd cause the implemented ending to be bad.

And if the basic concepts were thrown out, the result would be a different ending. But... that's what you're talking about, right? The vague hope that Drew K. might have ended up writing something you liked better than what you got. It's got nothing to do with the idea he actually had, it's about an idea he might have had.

[AlanC9]

And I'm not quite sure what "Yo Dawg" has to do with anything. Unless you are a fan of American Idol.

Haven't been here long, huh? Just google "yo dawg ME3" and you'll be up to speed pretty quick.

[Spectr61]

I think this is, bluntly, nonsense. Unless the basic concepts of the proposed Dark Energy ending were thrown out, they'd cause the implemented ending to be bad.
And if the basic concepts were thrown out, the result would be a different ending. But... that's what you're talking about, right? The vague hope that Drew K. might have ended up writing something you liked better than what you got. It's got nothing to do with the idea he actually had, it's about an idea he might have had.

I take it you don't like the idea of dark energy. So much so that it could never, in any incarnation, lead to anything good.

My own thoughts are that there are an innumerable number of possibilities, limited only by writer imagination, and I am optimistic enough to think that I might like some.

[Spectr61]

Haven't been here long, huh? Just google "yo dawg ME3" and you'll be up to speed pretty quick.

Eternity would not be long enough.

[Sartoz]

People keep forgetting/ignoring this little detail

 

This reminds me of a story about Jim Butcher.  He got into an argument about whether good writing can take a terrible idea and make it into a good story.  HE asserted it was possible.  He was so confident that he challenged the person to give him not one but two terrible ideas and he'd make a good story out of them.  He was given "The Lost Roman Legion" and "Pokemon" as ideas.

 

The result was the Codex Alera series  

                                                                                    <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

Codex Alera are good stories. Guess Jim was right, though I prefer his Dresden files.

[DebatableBubble]

Aria T'Loak. Possibly the most cringe-inducing, tryhard character BioWare has ever written.

She's so bad. And the fact you can't say anything to her is worse. I don't expect to actually pull a gun on her but at least give us the option to tell her off.

[AlanC9]

I take it you don't like the idea of dark energy. So much so that it could never, in any incarnation, lead to anything good.

I'm only talking about the actual idea Drew K. had, not all possible endings that we could put the "dark energy" label on.

If we want to fantasize about different endings that we've never heard of, I don't see why we should confine our fantasies to just endings labelled "dark energy," nor just endings written by Drew K. Why not fantasies about a better ending written by Mac and Casey?

[dreamgazer]

How does one go from an awful basic concept to a good ending?

You can't. That's all that really needs to be said further about that.

And the basic concept of Drew's dark energy ending was well and truly awful, one that doubled down on issues people had with the shipped ending.

[dreamgazer]

People keep forgetting/ignoring this little detail

What's the phrase a few folks on this board were using about ME3's ending? "You can't polish a turd"?

Well, the working parts of the dark energy ending would be diarrhea: it may be unformed, but ...

[Xilizhra]

She's so bad.

Like the Power Glove?

[Mcfly616]

I thought it was because the means were silly, counterproductive, and needlessly destructive.

You're assuming that the war is necessary. What's necessary about it?

I assumed nothing. I simply observed the fact that In Exile believes that it's stupid because Bioware didn't make the Reapers appear to be wrong for "committing space genocide"

 

 

Maybe you should discuss it with him, as I've yet to say anything regarding my feelings towards the Reapers or their motivations.

[DebatableBubble]

Like the Power Glove?

Come again?

[Xilizhra]

Come again?