186 réponses à ce sujet

[DebatableBubble]

Oh, worse than that.

[AlanC9]

I assumed nothing. I simply observed the fact that In Exile believes that it's stupid because Bioware didn't make the Reapers appear to be wrong for "committing space genocide"

Maybe you should discuss it with him, as I've yet to say anything regarding my feelings towards the Reapers or their motivations.

I'll let In Exile speak to his own motivations.

What's your actual position here? Is genocide OK? And where were you going with

Either way you're coming off as a PC zombie. What war are you aware of that didn't involve raping, pillaging, plundering, the typical hate of those not like you and/or a case of genocide? 
 
Bioware handled war with kiddie gloves if you ask me.

[Mcfly616]

I'll let In Exile speak to his own motivations.

What's your actual position here? Is genocide OK?

 He stated them pretty clearly.

 

My position is that I don't believe the writers have an obligation to make any one entity appear a specific way or fail based solely on the means in which they use to achieve the ends they desire. 

 

 

Is genocide okay? Of course not. However, it's been a part of war since wars have been waged. So I'm hardly shocked by its inclusion in a game about the war to end all wars. Would I let one civilization burn over there so that I could save the rest of the galaxy? Seems like a legitimate thing to think about when organic life is facing extinction. 

[In Exile]

 So it was stupid because you didn't like that their means were justified....ok

 

 

  Looks like a bunch of blabbering. Everything you're stating as "fact" is nothing more than your own warped opinion. It's all subjective.

 

Either way you're coming off as a PC zombie. What war are you aware of that didn't involve raping, pillaging, plundering, the typical hate of those not like you and/or a case of genocide? 

 

Bioware handled war with kiddie gloves if you ask me.

 

It's stupid because it doesn't make sense - the goal is nonsense, and the means fail to achieve the nonsense goal. In fact, the means by their very nature and definition achieve the very thing that's supposed to be avoided. It's offensive because it's a story about how the Nazis were right all along. The Reapers don't just kill - they commit an industrialized genocide on a scale that makes the Nazis look like they were running summer camps - they do it in the most awful, gratuitous way. 

 

Your third point is gibberish. The reapers don't rape, pillage, or plunder. Most wars don't involve industrialized genocide. Wars in the 20th century far more rarely involve pillage and rape, and those that do, well, that's not the side that's portrayed as "right all along". 

[In Exile]

 He stated them pretty clearly.

 

My position is that I don't believe the writers have an obligation to make any one entity appear a specific way or fail based solely on the means in which they use to achieve the ends they desire. 

 

 

Is genocide okay? Of course not. However, it's been a part of war since wars have been waged. So I'm hardly shocked by its inclusion in a game about the war to end all wars. Would I let one civilization burn over there so that I could save the rest of the galaxy? Seems like a legitimate thing to think about when organic life is facing extinction. 

 

I don't know what you're on about here. The point of the ME3 ending is to make the Reapers seem justified - they're not absurdly and comically evil monsters, there's an actual reason for their genocide. This is a stupid premise, because the only people you're going to have agreeing with you are lunatics. 

[Mcfly616]

I don't know what you're on about here. The point of the ME3 ending is to make the Reapers seem justified - they're not absurdly and comically evil monsters, there's an actual reason for their genocide. This is a stupid premise, because the only people you're going to have agreeing with you are lunatics. 

 I'm on about exactly what you're stating. You think the fact that they committed genocide is the basis for why they should lose. They're genocidal machines whose motivations weren't so black and white as so many other stereotypical, one dimensional villains have been portrayed...and it seems to bother you.

 

Your reasoning for why it's stupid, is beyond stupid.

[AlanC9]

We should probably disentangle the evil part and the irrational part. I'm more OK with evil than I am with stupid, myself.

[Mcfly616]

It's stupid because it doesn't make sense - the goal is nonsense, and the means fail to achieve the nonsense goal. In fact, the means by their very nature and definition achieve the very thing that's supposed to be avoided. It's offensive because it's a story about how the Nazis were right all along. The Reapers don't just kill - they commit an industrialized genocide on a scale that makes the Nazis look like they were running summer camps - they do it in the most awful, gratuitous way. 

 

Your third point is gibberish. The reapers don't rape, pillage, or plunder. Most wars don't involve industrialized genocide. Wars in the 20th century far more rarely involve pillage and rape, and those that do, well, that's not the side that's portrayed as "right all along". 

 Seems to work just fine. I don't see all life in the galaxy going extinct.

 

 

Not gibberish at all. I never said they did do all of those things. I asked you to point out a war where none of those things happen....seeing as how you're all hung up on them committing genocide. The point being that atrocities are committed in every war. You seemed to think you were gonna get a clean victory. There's no such thing as a clean war.

[In Exile]

I'm on about exactly what you're stating. You think the fact that they committed genocide is the basis for why they should lose. They're genocidal machines whose motivations weren't so black and white as so many other stereotypical, one dimensional villains have been portrayed...and it seems to bother you.

Your reasoning for why it's stupid, is beyond stupid.

I have no idea what you're on about here. My point is that Bioware wanted to tell a story about the Reapers not being irredeemable antagonists. But they failed, because they made them worse than the actual Nazis. It doesn't matter what justification they try and use - no one is going to be on the side of "oh, maybe industrialized genocide IS ok".

Whether they use their original stupid idea about dark energy, or their current stupid idea about meat being special, it all suffers from the same problem.

[AlanC9]

I'd just break out the popcorn now, but I'm having a bit of trouble following your point, McFly616. This whole business about there being no clean wars seems to have entered the thread as a non sequitur. Where are you going with that?

[In Exile]

Seems to work just fine. I don't see all life in the galaxy going extinct.


Not gibberish at all. I never said they did do all of those things. I asked you to point out a war where none of those things happen....seeing as how you're all hung up on them committing genocide. The point being that atrocities are committed in every war. You seemed to think you were gonna get a clean victory. There's no such thing as a clean war.

It's gibberish. Apart from the fact that you're wrong about the ACTUAL content of ME - no raping, plundering, or pillaging - you're wrong about wars. While the former three were common - though less so in modern wars - actual genocide is incredibly rare. It's so rare we can actually exhaustively list when it does happen.

And all of this is a red herring, of course, because even if you were 100% right, there's no story that starts with "Let me tell you why it was totally justified to prepretate some mass rapes, steal everything the other side had, and then exterminate them all in a genocide."

Anyway, I've clarified my post so ... I'm going to back away slowly from the thread now.

[Hrulj]

It's stupid because it doesn't make sense - the goal is nonsense, and the means fail to achieve the nonsense goal. In fact, the means by their very nature and definition achieve the very thing that's supposed to be avoided. It's offensive because it's a story about how the Nazis were right all along. The Reapers don't just kill - they commit an industrialized genocide on a scale that makes the Nazis look like they were running summer camps - they do it in the most awful, gratuitous way. 

 

Your third point is gibberish. The reapers don't rape, pillage, or plunder. Most wars don't involve industrialized genocide. Wars in the 20th century far more rarely involve pillage and rape, and those that do, well, that's not the side that's portrayed as "right all along". 

Nazi comparisons are way off the mark. Reapers dont target a specific race, nor do they target someone for degeneracy or whatever. NAZI's targeted specific groups; jews, gays, mentally ill, racially unfit and retarded. Reapers target ALL advanced organic life in order to protect organic life as a whole. Its like culling an invasive species. 

[Mcfly616]

I have no idea what you're on about here. My point is that Bioware wanted to tell a story about the Reapers not being irredeemable antagonists. But they failed, because they made them worse than the actual Nazis. It doesn't matter what justification they try and use - no one is going to be on the side of "oh, maybe industrialized genocide IS ok".

Whether they use their original stupid idea about dark energy, or their current stupid idea about meat being special, it all suffers from the same problem.

 Already told you what I'm on about. I'm just repeating back to you what you're saying....and laughing at how silly it is. You're all bent out of shape because some machines committed genocide and weren't portrayed as irredeemable. And that's why you think the ending sucks.....fascinating

[Hrulj]

I have no idea what you're on about here. My point is that Bioware wanted to tell a story about the Reapers not being irredeemable antagonists. But they failed, because they made them worse than the actual Nazis. It doesn't matter what justification they try and use - no one is going to be on the side of "oh, maybe industrialized genocide IS ok".

Whether they use their original stupid idea about dark energy, or their current stupid idea about meat being special, it all suffers from the same problem.

Its not OK, but it is understandable. And it seems to be working. One has to note that Reapers existed for bilions of years. From now to Dinosaurs is 65 milion, and that isnt even a blip on a timescale of a bilion. Humans are incapable of understanding such numbers and such large scales.

[AlanC9]

Nazi comparisons are way off the mark. Reapers dont target a specific race, nor do they target someone for degeneracy or whatever. NAZI's targeted specific groups; jews, gays, mentally ill, racially unfit and retarded. Reapers target ALL advanced organic life in order to protect organic life as a whole. Its like culling an invasive species.

And advanced inorganic life too. In effect, they target everything that isn't Reapers.

[AlanC9]

Already told you what I'm on about. I'm just repeating back to you what you're saying....and laughing at how silly it is. You're all bent out of shape because some machines committed genocide and weren't portrayed as irredeemable. And that's why you think the ending sucks.....fascinating

Fascinating? I'm pretty sure this is a very common response.

[Hrulj]

And advanced inorganic life too. In effect, they target everything that isn't Reapers.

Exactly. All advanced forms are targeted. I forgot to mention the fact that no synthetic life survived the cycle. 

[In Exile]

Nazi comparisons are way off the mark. Reapers dont target a specific race, nor do they target someone for degeneracy or whatever. NAZI's targeted specific groups; jews, gays, mentally ill, racially unfit and retarded. Reapers target ALL advanced organic life in order to protect organic life as a whole. Its like culling an invasive species. 

 

No, they're not. You've missed the point. It's not about racism. The Nazis weren't awful just because they were racists - we've had plenty of racist regimes in human history. The Nazis are horrible because of their industrialized genocide, and their actual death camps. The reapers have taken these ideas and improved them on a scale that would make the Nazis jealous. They wage war directly by targeting and mutilating civilian populations, and their main shock troops are the mutilated and tortured corpses of the dead. 

 

It's not like culling an invasive species at all - we don't do it by vivisecting them all and pissing inside their still living corpses just so it hurts more. 

And I'm not getting into the idiocy that is "organic life". Cyano bacteria are organic life. The way to "preserve" organic life is to exterminate every single life bearing planet and maintain a colony of bacteria. What the writers mean is a certain kind of sapient meat that thinks like humans. It's just stupid. 

[Mcfly616]

It's gibberish. Apart from the fact that you're wrong about the ACTUAL content of ME - no raping, plundering, or pillaging

Considering I never said those things occurred in ME, no, I'm not wrong about anything.

 

 you're wrong about wars. While the former three were common - though less so in modern wars - actual genocide is incredibly rare. It's so rare we can actually exhaustively list when it does happen.

 You're clearly just uneducated or simply in denial. If by rare you mean "happens once or twice a decade"....sure...."rare"

[Mcfly616]

Fascinating? I'm pretty sure this is a very common response.

 I've heard plenty of reasons why the ending sucks. His is downright juvenile....for lack of a better term. Comes off like someone that can't handle hearing that atrocities take place and sometimes there's a reason behind them.

[o Ventus]

Looking back at the trilogy, ME2 was the odd one out, with less serious attitude, and a change in tone when it comes to story. Everything seemed cheesy, not in a bad way, but just a bit over the top. Which got me thinking; it came after the success of ME1, and I had to wonder, is the tone and style of ME2 the original idea for ME? Is it what designers always wanted to make of the series, or is it an attempt to "casualise" the franchise, which was later rectified? And do you think MEA will have the serious tone of ME1 and 3, or be a bit over the top like ME2?

 

"Less serious"? The game about mutated cyborg alien zombies who kidnap people and liquefy them while they're still alive is the "less serious" one in the series now? The game where your allies are assassins, vigilantes, or otherwise violent sociopaths? Which alternate reality did I step into where ME2 is the lighthearted game in the trilogy?

[Hrulj]

No, they're not. You've missed the point. It's not about racism. The Nazis weren't awful just because they were racists - we've had plenty of racist regimes in human history. The Nazis are horrible because of their industrialized genocide, and their actual death camps. The reapers have taken these ideas and improved them on a scale that would make the Nazis jealous. They wage war directly by targeting and mutilating civilian populations, and their main shock troops are the mutilated and tortured corpses of the dead. 

 

It's not like culling an invasive species at all - we don't do it by vivisecting them all and pissing inside their still living corpses just so it hurts more. 

Nazis are defined by policy of targeting "racial inferiors" and non aryans. If today America decided to kill off all socialists in American continent, they wouldnt be Nazies. Nazi is not a catch-all-term for any ammount of large scale slaughter or genocide.

 

Really? We are already planing on using genetic engineering to fight against invasive species. 

If we had a capability to ingineer a carp that will kill other invasive carps and its eggs we would do so, and probably will do so. In human terms that is a person taken somewhere and then modified in order that its primary instinct and function is to kill babies and target civilians. 

[Hrulj]

 The way to "preserve" organic life is to exterminate every single life bearing planet and maintain a colony of bacteria. What the writers mean is a certain kind of sapient meat that thinks like humans. It's just stupid. 

 

The harvest is not a final solution, the synthesis or something else is. For that reason advanced organic life is needed since synthesis cant be forced. If it is not achived by the time next cycle comes around, too bad, restart the project and try again

[Iakus]

I don't think anyone's forgetting that dark energy was just a concept. But it was a bad concept; everything you hated about the ending we got is baked into the concept. Unless we're saying that the entirety of the concept is "something something Dark Energy" and the rest is implementation?

The entirety of the concept is "something something "Dark Energy"  It sounds like it never got past the spitballing stage.

 

Take any two ideas on anything:  time-travel, human cloning, alien abductions, whatever.  You can make good or bad stories based on these concepts.  But I'm not going to judge Dark Energy (and notice I have never said I actually like it)  because we have no idea how it was going to be implemented.

 

What's the phrase a few folks on this board were using about ME3's ending? "You can't polish a turd"?

Well, the working parts of the dark energy ending would be diarrhea: it may be unformed, but ...

If you want to be truly accurate, Dark Energy is barely digested and never had time to work its way through the intestinal tract.

[Mcfly616]

"Less serious"? The game about mutated cyborg alien zombies who kidnap people and liquefy them while they're still alive is the "less serious" one in the series now? The game where your allies are assassins, vigilantes, or otherwise violent sociopaths? Which alternate reality did I step into where ME2 is the lighthearted game in the trilogy?

 Yeah, you know....the one where you spend 40 hours babysitting those so-called assassins, vigilantes and violent sociopaths and helping them solve their mommy/daddy/family issues til they're finally ready to attack that lone base. Seriously serious.