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No Renegade or Paragon?


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#226
AngryFrozenWater

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Paragon and renegade options are too simplistic. If the game favors a given action it will be paragon and if not it will be renegade. Renegade options are most of the time just about being rude. Most of these don't reflect real rebellion or pragmatic evil (or variations on that theme). What's even worse is that no matter what you select the outcome will always be the same. Kill the very last rachni queen? No worries, she'll will be replaced by another to make sure that the same mission can be played. Save her and she ends up being a meaningless war asset and the rachni may end up in an epilogue image.

 

Because paragon and renegade options rarely have impact, it results in rationalizations during dialogue. The story suffers from it, because the story may end up like a long chain of vague dialogue.

 

I'm not even sure if grey options are the answer. Does that mean that these grey options suddenly have any meaningful consequences, or does that mean we'll have a third kind of rationalizations?


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#227
Dean_the_Young

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That's not possible.

 

I was going to do the same quote thing you do but I find it exhausting, so I'll go with

 

Well, at least I can take comfort you'll apply the same intellectual rigor to your moral analysis.

 

 

1. Not all artificial moralities are created equal, as stated previous some people are triggered by many things, but have lots of authority.

 

 

Irrelevant to whether people can have unjustified presumptions.

 

 

 

2. You didn't play BG rampaging through the wilderness, murdering Drizzt in cold blood for his swords? BORING MR DEAN. <_<

 

 

Irrelevant to the arbitrariness, and universality, of morality.

 

And why do you assume I'm a Mr?

 

 

Again, if treating artificial moralities is wrong because relativism, then true relativism would mean attacking artificial moralities.

 

That would be antithical to the point of moral relativism, which values the tolerance of, not attack on, other people's seemingly arbitrary moralities and differences.

 

Also, very poor syntax and grammar. You should clarify treating how.

 

 

The truth path through artificial moralities would be to destroy all of them.

 

 

This would be an arbitrary claim, and a false one, as many arbitrary moral codes and philosophies do not require or even desire the destruction of alternative lines of thought.
 

 

Moreover since anyone can invoke their artificial morality as superior to another artificial morality it's literally just majoritarianism, not relativism.

 

 

Majoritarianism would only apply when the person in question is attempting to appeal to a majority. This does not apply to most moral codes (though that does not prevent some from trying- see appeals to 'universal values' or 'universal morality').

 

 

In contrast, many artificial moralities can be subsumed by other, greater ones, with no loss whatsoever to anyone.

 

 

Artificial moralities are arbitrary. This is a synonym, not a contrast.



#228
Seraphim24

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Well, at least I can take comfort you'll apply the same intellectual rigor to your moral analysis.

 

 

Irrelevant to whether people can have unjustified presumptions.

 

 

Irrelevant to the arbitrariness, and universality, of morality.

 

And why do you assume I'm a Mr?

 

 

That would be antithical to the point of moral relativism, which values the tolerance of, not attack on, other people's seemingly arbitrary moralities and differences.

 

Also, very poor syntax and grammar. You should clarify treating how.

 

 

This would be an arbitrary claim, and a false one, as many arbitrary moral codes and philosophies do not require or even desire the destruction of alternative lines of thought.
 

 

Majoritarianism would only apply when the person in question is attempting to appeal to a majority. This does not apply to most moral codes (though that does not prevent some from trying- see appeals to 'universal values' or 'universal morality').

 

 

Artificial moralities are arbitrary. This is a synonym, not a contrast.

 

1. Why on earth are artificial moralities not arbitrary? They usually are very specific and bounded.

2. It's not codes and philosophies require the destruction of alternative lines of thought, it's existence, death, etc, and the inevitably that tolerating all means giving free reign to those that destroy the other ones.

3. I assume Mr. because Dean is a male name.

4. Also it's not irrelevant to whether it's boring or not.

 

Ex X values Intelligence, Y values greater intelligence.

 

Y > X, no need for X as a model, X is redundant in Y's moral scheme. It's not hostile to it either. X can't put in Y's position, because X < Y and is therefore triggered by greater power, thus can't evaluate objectively.



#229
nfi42

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Paragon and renegade options are too simplistic. If the game favors a given action it will be paragon and if not it will be renegade. Renegade options are most of the time just about being rude. Most of these don't reflect real rebellion or pragmatic evil (or variations on that theme). What's even worse is that no matter what you select the outcome will always be the same. Kill the very last rachni queen? No worries, she'll will be replaced by another to make sure that the same mission can be played. Save her and she ends up being a meaningless war asset and the rachni may end up in an epilogue image.

 

Because paragon and renegade options rarely have impact, it results in rationalizations during dialogue. The story suffers from it, because the story may end up like a long chain of vague dialogue.

 

I'm not even sure if grey options are the answer. Does that mean that these grey options suddenly have any meaningful consequences, or does that mean we'll have a third kind of rationalizations?

 

 

We'll that does assume Bioware write meaningful consequences to the hard grey decisions.  No point in changing anything if decisions have no consequence.

 

ME3 had at least 2 meaningful consequences, so there is hope.


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#230
In Exile

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I don't like it either. To expand on this, imo if the choice of response picked in a dialog. Actually resembled what comes out of the protagonists mouth, emotion icons wouldn't be necessary either. It would also make me as a player think more about what dialog option I chose.

I like thinking, emotion icons dumbs it down as does paragon/renegade.


That's totally untrue. Google pragmatics - it's an entire branch of speech that can't be properly conveyed in writing.

#231
nfi42

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That's totally untrue. Google pragmatics - it's an entire branch of speech that can't be properly conveyed in writing.

 

What?

 

Iirc,  I think I posted after this that I was remembering another game, ie quite probably wrong.



#232
In Exile

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What?

Iirc, I think I posted after this that I was remembering another game, ie quite probably wrong.


I might not have been clear. Even if the dialogue showed you the literal line, you don't know how it will be delivered without a tone cue. The information isn't the same.

#233
AngryFrozenWater

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We'll that does assume Bioware write meaningful consequences to the hard grey decisions.  No point in changing anything if decisions have no consequence.

 

ME3 had at least 2 meaningful consequences, so there is hope.

You've found two? Enlighten me. Ghehe. ;)



#234
nfi42

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I might not have been clear. Even if the dialogue showed you the literal line, you don't know how it will be delivered without a tone cue. The information isn't the same.

 

Message clear and accept as true.



#235
nfi42

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You've found two? Enlighten me. Ghehe. ;)

 

Fate of the Krogan.  Fate of the Geth/Quarians. 

 

But now that I mention it, it doesn't make any diff to the ending.


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#236
AngryFrozenWater

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Fate of the Krogan.  Fate of the Geth/Quarians. 

 

But now that I mention it, it doesn't make any diff to the ending.

Exactly. :P


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#237
dreamgazer

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Fate of the Krogan.  Fate of the Geth/Quarians. 
 
But now that I mention it, it doesn't make any diff to the ending.


Sure, it does. Both decisions completely change the context of the final decision.

For example, Control might look pretty darn good if you decided to cure the genophage and allowed the geth to stick around.
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#238
nfi42

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Sure, it does. Both decisions completely change the context of the final decision.

For example, Control might look pretty darn good if you decided to cure the genophage and allowed the geth to stick around.

 

Yes,  I just meant it doesn't change the final ending.

 

I'm still very happy with having those 2 decisions in the game.



#239
Dean_the_Young

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1. Why on earth are artificial moralities not arbitrary? They usually are very specific and bounded.

2. It's not codes and philosophies require the destruction of alternative lines of thought, it's existence, death, etc, and the inevitably that tolerating all means giving free reign to those that destroy the other ones.

3. I assume Mr. because Dean is a male name.

4. Also it's not irrelevant to whether it's boring or not.

 

Ex X values Intelligence, Y values greater intelligence.

 

Y > X, no need for X as a model, X is redundant in Y's moral scheme. It's not hostile to it either. X can't put in Y's position, because X < Y and is therefore triggered by greater power, thus can't evaluate objectively.

 

1. That is the exact opposite of what I said- that artificial moralities are arbitrary. You are now arguing with your own point that I was disputing- as you had claimed the artificial was in contrast to the arbitrary.

 

Do kindly not change my argument into your own just so that you can disagree.

 

/

 

2. Now you are changing the goal posts, and the parameters of what your previous objections have been. You have simultaneously condemned making moral judgements of others and made moral judgements yourself. You have criticized enforcing moral norms, and are now criticizing a lack of enforcing moral norms.

 

/

 

3. 'Dean' is only masculine if it's a first name. It can also be a family name, the head of a college faculty department, or the head of the chapter of a cathedral or church.

 

 

Why do you assume that Dean is my first name? Wouldn't this be an example of an unfouded presumption?

 

/

 

4. Boredom is irrelevant to morality.

 

/

 

5. Incorrect- because objectivity doesn't derive from persons X and Y being equal in experience and perspective. The closer two people are in experience =/= the more objective the evaluation, as closeness brings with it personal emotional biases (self-identification with one party or the other) and the limitations to perspective (losing sight of a forest for the trees).

 

Relative power imbalance does not preclude a loss of objectivity. In some cases, only a relative power imbalance can allow objectivity, as otherwise a person is too invested in a particularly group or outcome to be impartial. Any representative of a beuracracy is very unlikely to advocate diminished resources for his agency- any proponent of an ideology is unlikely to admit or even acknowledge the shortcomings of their proposals. Similarly this comes from scenarios of mutual dependence or influence as well- a politician who knows he needs to raise taxes, but also knows he would lose office if he does, is similarly biased the closer he is held to the people's experiences.

 

 

Hence the frequent need for outside arbitrators who the considered have minimal influence over, but who are also not beholden to an outcome and so can be objective. This inherently requires a power difference- the arbitrator can affect the judged far more than the judged can affect the arbitrator.

 

 

 

Your appeals to 'triggering' are so ill-defined and nebulous that they're hard to evaluate. In your favor I will assume you are not referring to the modern college trend which conflates intellectual discomfort with trauma and encourages people to claim the later than overcome the former. That definition, which is the dominant usage of it in the modern society, brings with it a lot of ethical backage you haven't even come close to unpacking, such as how 'triggering' is called to condemn the person providing the trigger and to avoid the experience, rather than provide psychological therapy to the triggered so that they build mental and emotional endurance. It's a concept that validates continued harm and trauma, rather than heals it- little different than saying 'that person has a broken leg- he can't run,' but then avoiding actually applying a cast or healing.

 

Since I will assume that is not your intended use, I recommend you better define it.



#240
iM3GTR

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Fate of the Krogan. Fate of the Geth/Quarians.

But now that I mention it, it doesn't make any diff to the ending.

The Geth/Quarian decision is completely rendered pointless, imo anyway, considering making them best buddies is shown as the best outcome.

#241
Seraphim24

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1. That is the exact opposite of what I said- that artificial moralities are arbitrary. You are now arguing with your own point that I was disputing- as you had claimed the artificial was in contrast to the arbitrary.

 

Do kindly not change my argument into your own just so that you can disagree.

 

/

 

2. Now you are changing the goal posts, and the parameters of what your previous objections have been. You have simultaneously condemned making moral judgements of others and made moral judgements yourself. You have criticized enforcing moral norms, and are now criticizing a lack of enforcing moral norms.

 

/

 

3. 'Dean' is only masculine if it's a first name. It can also be a family name, the head of a college faculty department, or the head of the chapter of a cathedral or church.

 

 

Why do you assume that Dean is my first name? Wouldn't this be an example of an unfouded presumption?

 

/

 

4. Boredom is irrelevant to morality.

 

/

 

5. Incorrect- because objectivity doesn't derive from persons X and Y being equal in experience and perspective. The closer two people are in experience =/= the more objective the evaluation, as closeness brings with it personal emotional biases (self-identification with one party or the other) and the limitations to perspective (losing sight of a forest for the trees).

 

Relative power imbalance does not preclude a loss of objectivity. In some cases, only a relative power imbalance can allow objectivity, as otherwise a person is too invested in a particularly group or outcome to be impartial. Any representative of a beuracracy is very unlikely to advocate diminished resources for his agency- any proponent of an ideology is unlikely to admit or even acknowledge the shortcomings of their proposals. Similarly this comes from scenarios of mutual dependence or influence as well- a politician who knows he needs to raise taxes, but also knows he would lose office if he does, is similarly biased the closer he is held to the people's experiences.

 

 

Hence the frequent need for outside arbitrators who the considered have minimal influence over, but who are also not beholden to an outcome and so can be objective. This inherently requires a power difference- the arbitrator can affect the judged far more than the judged can affect the arbitrator.

 

 

 

Your appeals to 'triggering' are so ill-defined and nebulous that they're hard to evaluate. In your favor I will assume you are not referring to the modern college trend which conflates intellectual discomfort with trauma and encourages people to claim the later than overcome the former. That definition, which is the dominant usage of it in the modern society, brings with it a lot of ethical backage you haven't even come close to unpacking, such as how 'triggering' is called to condemn the person providing the trigger and to avoid the experience, rather than provide psychological therapy to the triggered so that they build mental and emotional endurance. It's a concept that validates continued harm and trauma, rather than heals it- little different than saying 'that person has a broken leg- he can't run,' but then avoiding actually applying a cast or healing.

 

Since I will assume that is not your intended use, I recommend you better define it.

 

I'm just going to focus solely on the points about power and objectivity.

 

Like people concede and use more powerful people as benchmarks and guides to their life all the time, although to be fair, they sometimes use less powerful people as references as well.

 

The point is all these things can be measured, and no one lesser should judge someone greater. Besides, my point was that relative power imbalance is often essentially objectivity, which is I think you doing what you said I was doing, "taking the point and turning it around."

 

So why would anyone say the world is filled with shades of gray, when no one actually uses such a concept of relativity in life?

 

Moreover, if a power deficiency causes people not to see the forest from the trees, or judge things improperly, why is that permitted? Also, you didn't say whether my presumption was unfounded regarding "Dean," so I wouldn't know whether it was or wasn't, strange question, to say the least... 

 

Like Hitler felt inferior to some kinds of Jewish people, or a certain sort of personality, yet he judged many of them and wrongly, that's why we pin him as a supervillain. Did he feel inferior to "German people?" No, in contrast, he saw himself as the ultimate member of this one segment of the population. By some logic, he was "abusing" the "German people" to do all kinds of things, fight his wars, die for him in battle, get shot and be paralyzed for the rest of their life, starve in a trench somewhere in Russia, yet no one really questioned his ability to act in that respect, because they were the people who elected him consensually (or by some extension agreed to live according to some representative system, etc)

 

All state systems are inferior in similar ways because they enforce pecuniary cultural norms, not saying the world is perfect. States should not be able to exercise power as a default rule as to everyone within those borders, because of logic of power.



#242
Dean_the_Young

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I'm just going to focus solely on the points about power and objectivity.

 

Like people concede and use more powerful people as benchmarks and guides to their life all the time, although to be fair, they sometimes use less powerful people as references as well.

 

The point is all these things can be measured, and no one lesser should judge someone greater. Besides, my point was that relative power imbalance is often essentially objectivity, which is I think you doing what you said I was doing, "taking the point and turning it around."

 

Why say you're focusing on the points about power and objectivity if you aren't actually going to address what I posted? Nothing you wrote actually addresses, compliments, or refutes what I posted. Nor does it actually explain anything about what your moral system actually stands for, or against, in any way.

 

And why are you countering your own previous criticisms? Besides the obvious answer, I mean.

 

Previously you claimed power differences made objectivity impossible. Now you're claiming it's 'essentially' objectivity. Power difference is neither incompatible or synonymous with objectivity.

 

 

 

 

So why would anyone say the world is filled with shades of gray, when no one actually uses such a concept of relativity in life?

 

People use relativity all the time when they accept things they don't agree with as valid positions. That's most of human socialization, since societies are composed of people who don't actually agree on everything.

 

They also use it when they dwell on morally complex issues in which competing moral priorities are pitted against eachother. Not everyone shares the same prioritization of morals, and sometimes there are no clear answers or even good solutions to problems. When there are only bad outcomes to a delimma- such as events in Syria- it doesn't mean anyone trying to deal with that situation is bad people.



#243
Seraphim24

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Why say you're focusing on the points about power and objectivity if you aren't actually going to address what I posted? Nothing you wrote actually addresses, compliments, or refutes what I posted. Nor does it actually explain anything about what your moral system actually stands for, or against, in any way.

 

And why are you countering your own previous criticisms? Besides the obvious answer, I mean.

 

Previously you claimed power differences made objectivity impossible. Now you're claiming it's 'essentially' objectivity. Power difference is neither incompatible or synonymous with objectivity.

 

 

 

People use relativity all the time when they accept things they don't agree with as valid positions. That's most of human socialization, since societies are composed of people who don't actually agree on everything.

 

They also use it when they dwell on morally complex issues in which competing moral priorities are pitted against eachother. Not everyone shares the same prioritization of morals, and sometimes there are no clear answers or even good solutions to problems. When there are only bad outcomes to a delimma- such as events in Syria- it doesn't mean anyone trying to deal with that situation is bad people.

 

Right, power difference is neither incompatible or synonymous with objectivity.

 

People can't accept things they don't agree with as valid positions, not internally, fundamentally, at any rate, that's one of your recurring mistakes here, twas the mistake that led to Brexit, something I anticipated months ago simply based on differences, etc.

 

Also societies are composed primarily of people who agree on everything, that's how they arose to begin with, that's why minority positions in societal systems are such a big issue.

 

So you brought up Syria... yes people trying to deal with the outcome badly are bad people. If you can't solve a problem (or at least, help, or something) you don't deserve to try and address it. 

 

The only people who deserve power are the ones who already have power. With their power, they should be able to convince people of their position, etc.

 

Your points about competing moral complexities and problems and such are just projection on your part.



#244
Seraphim24

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1. That is the exact opposite of what I said- that artificial moralities are arbitrary. You are now arguing with your own point that I was disputing- as you had claimed the artificial was in contrast to the arbitrary.

 

Do kindly not change my argument into your own just so that you can disagree.

 

/

 

2. Now you are changing the goal posts, and the parameters of what your previous objections have been. You have simultaneously condemned making moral judgements of others and made moral judgements yourself. You have criticized enforcing moral norms, and are now criticizing a lack of enforcing moral norms.

 

/

 

3. 'Dean' is only masculine if it's a first name. It can also be a family name, the head of a college faculty department, or the head of the chapter of a cathedral or church.

 

 

Why do you assume that Dean is my first name? Wouldn't this be an example of an unfouded presumption?

 

/

 

4. Boredom is irrelevant to morality.

 

/

 

5. Incorrect- because objectivity doesn't derive from persons X and Y being equal in experience and perspective. The closer two people are in experience =/= the more objective the evaluation, as closeness brings with it personal emotional biases (self-identification with one party or the other) and the limitations to perspective (losing sight of a forest for the trees).

 

Relative power imbalance does not preclude a loss of objectivity. In some cases, only a relative power imbalance can allow objectivity, as otherwise a person is too invested in a particularly group or outcome to be impartial. Any representative of a beuracracy is very unlikely to advocate diminished resources for his agency- any proponent of an ideology is unlikely to admit or even acknowledge the shortcomings of their proposals. Similarly this comes from scenarios of mutual dependence or influence as well- a politician who knows he needs to raise taxes, but also knows he would lose office if he does, is similarly biased the closer he is held to the people's experiences.

 

 

Hence the frequent need for outside arbitrators who the considered have minimal influence over, but who are also not beholden to an outcome and so can be objective. This inherently requires a power difference- the arbitrator can affect the judged far more than the judged can affect the arbitrator.

 

 

 

Your appeals to 'triggering' are so ill-defined and nebulous that they're hard to evaluate. In your favor I will assume you are not referring to the modern college trend which conflates intellectual discomfort with trauma and encourages people to claim the later than overcome the former. That definition, which is the dominant usage of it in the modern society, brings with it a lot of ethical backage you haven't even come close to unpacking, such as how 'triggering' is called to condemn the person providing the trigger and to avoid the experience, rather than provide psychological therapy to the triggered so that they build mental and emotional endurance. It's a concept that validates continued harm and trauma, rather than heals it- little different than saying 'that person has a broken leg- he can't run,' but then avoiding actually applying a cast or healing.

 

Since I will assume that is not your intended use, I recommend you better define it.

 

Ok as to this

 

"Morality" is an arbitrary label for an objective phenomenon.

 

You can criticize poor enforcement of moral norms, whilst simultaneously criticizing a lack of norms in another direction.

 

I think I already made the point about "Dean" you are drinking the contrarian Kool-Aid so hard you failed to inform me of a basis for rejecting my own presumption and conforming with yours.

 

Boredom is not irrelevant to morality, especially now people like things because they are "cool" and support/gravitate towards them, or maybe because they are sexually attracted to someone in that industry or something, are these not valid reasons for describing people's moral preferences?



#245
Seraphim24

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So you say in your story corner you have a character where the black tar is "race," well, ok, so race is some of a limitation, you can't judge things that are afflicted by your trigger.

 

You can judge the **** out of everything else though, that isn't your "black tar." Kind of waiting for you people, someone, to do so, matter of fact.

 

Hitler, in alternate universe recognizing his shortcomings with respect to Jewish people, certain racial categories, whatever those things were, full acceptance of his moral failings as a person, and thus invokes nothing towards those people or groups one way or another, while still tearing into the rest of the problems of the world that he actually understood, would have my vote... er... or support or... something, because it would be support with respect to that specific group of people that there is a consensual understanding.

 

Likewise, people who are triggered by Hitler-esque personalities would then have to respect their own limitations, Americans and Barack Obama, etc, are highly passive aggressive and triggered by people who are not (LGBTs, gamers, etc), and thus should divorce any sense of responsibility towards such people. So long as they continue to do so, they are as bad as Hitler was, as far as I'm concerned, just towards a different group of people, and he or anyone else like him most definitely never has my vote.

 

The world since didn't stop having Holocausts, American passive aggression, which is ultimately just as sinful as actual aggression, has been for instance powerfully destructive and harmful towards LGBT, on into the present.

 

We reached the apex several years ago, I believe it is about the time (through... just... economy... movement of public thought) that there is a leveling out though for that incredible mound of sin.



#246
In Exile

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This thread went into a weird direction.

#247
KaiserShep

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This thread went into a weird direction.


Weird would suggest that this doesn't happen often.

#248
dreamgazer

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This thread went into a weird direction.


I like how matter-of-factly you stated that.

Just chalk up another one.

#249
Seraphim24

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Anyone who is not triggered by "any known living being" can lay claim to the title of "god" or "Yahweh" or "Universal morality"

 

Or maybe, Terra morality? Earth morality? Could still be triggered by Aliens... perhaps.

 

Simple test...... billions of failures... at that test.

 

Also, billions of cheaters, fakes.

 

Does not make that ultimate failures, ultimate failure to ignore results of test.

 

I don't see anyone through any media/history that meets test.. besides possibly a historical "god." I'm just saying, some closer than others.....



#250
Dean_the_Young

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This thread went into a weird direction.

 

Boring, too. I was about to stop bothering even before she invoked Godwin.

 

It wasn't even an interesting Godwin. It was more like playdough- lacking any real form or substance or texture.

 

I like how matter-of-factly you stated that.

Just chalk up another one.

 

Eh, it's a boring time in the forum. Might as well make it interesting, even if it is incoherant quasi-trolling.


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