253 réponses à ce sujet

[BraveVesperia]

I'm okay without such a stark Naive Hero/Utter Jerk alignment system. The main thing I'm going to miss if that is removed is interrupts. I really like the spur of the moment reactions and some were just fun. Some were sweet, like Tali's hug. Some were awesome, like a paragon Shep threatening to pistol whip Dr. Archer.

I'm hoping that even if they removed paragon/renegade, they could still incorporate interrupts somehow. Maybe by giving them a tone icon, similar to DAI's reaction wheel? Perhaps things like hitting Archer could have a little fist to incidcate that it's an aggressive option. Hugging could have a little handshake icon to indicate friendliness (or one to indicate compassion?).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just another thing about Mass Effect that they are throwing away.  

 

And this more shades of grey thing probably means more "Morally ambiguous/grey/edgy/dark things are cool" like Bioware has started doing more and more.  

[dreamgazer]

I'll repost my reply:

Just another thing about Mass Effect that they are throwing away.

Why is this a bad thing? Why do you need the blue points and the red points?

And this more shades of grey thing probably means more "Morally ambiguous/grey/edgy/dark things are cool" like Bioware has started doing more and more.

Moral ambiguity is a wonderful thing, as it engages the brain. As for "edgy" and "dark", nah, just take a look at Dragon Age, Fallout: New Vegas, and many other games with less importance placed on simple good vs. bad actions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why is this a bad thing? Why do you need the blue points and the red points?

Because it is part of what made Mass Effect Mass Effect. It'd be like KOTOR 3 no longer having Light Side/Dark Side meters that can influence the game. 

 

Moral ambiguity is a wonderful thing, as it engages the brain. As for "edgy" and "dark", nah, just take a look at Dragon Age, Fallout: New Vegas, and many other games with less importance placed on simple good vs. bad actions.

What part of Dragon Age are you talking about? 

I hated Fallout: New Vegas. 

[dreamgazer]

Because it is part of what made Mass Effect Mass Effect. It'd be like KOTOR 3 no longer having Light Side/Dark Side meters that can influence the game.

Except paragon and renegade aren't functions of ME's lore. They're naive and arbitrary methods of saying something's good or bad.

Moral ambiguity is nonsense.

Why? People have to make tough decisions all the time.

An act is either right or it is wrong.

Then why did both paragon and renegade Shepards succeed in every game of the trilogy?

The concept of moral ambiguity is just a mechanism for people who commit wrongdoings to convince themselves it wasn't wrong.

Interesting way of dismissing a broad range of critical thinking.

What part of Dragon Age are you talking about?

Every part of it.

I hated Fallout: New Vegas.

That's a shame, but it makes sense considering this post.

[afgncaap7]

I just hope that our ability to make decisions is no longer pre-determined according to a stat you build up from completely unrelated circumstances. It's kinda hard for me to believe that I'm playing a renegade Shepard who kills 100 mercs an hour, headbutts Krogans, pushes people out of skyscrapers and shoots hostages to resolve a hostage crisis.........but because I decided to be nice this one time I'm suddenly not "hardcore" enough to intimidate a known scumbag with my SPECTRE status.

And then there's the favoritism. All too often it felt like paragon was always the "right" decision while renegade often seemed like being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. People are not that black and white and morality is not that simple.

[Dr. Rush]

Thank god, I feel like my prayer has been answered.

 

Maybe you guys don't realize how shallow the Paragon/Renegade system was, but it was a terrible morality scale that hindered - not helped ROLEPLAYING.

 

Please Bioware, this is a big step forward, please get this right!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why? People have to make tough decisions all the time.

What does that have to do with moral ambiguity?

Care to give an example of something that fits what you are talking about?

 

Then why did both paragon and renegade Shepards succeed in every game of the trilogy?

People who do evil things can still succeed. Stalin committed some of the worst atrocities in human history, yet he succeeded turning the Soviet Union into a world power. Doesn't mean what he did isn't still evil and wrong. 

 

Every part of it.

I recall Dragon Age having parts that aren't morally ambiguous but plain black and white. Care to give a specific example?  

[Catilina]

I would glad, if removed the Paragon / Renegade system; it was stupid, I think. I want something more differentiated.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Huh, we'll see how "grey" these choices really are. They say that about each Bioware game then one side ends up being full of idiots. 

[Dalinne]

I hope the reputation meter is more focused in Milky Wayers / Andromedians

The key is keep balance within your necessity of colonization and being cooperative with the Andromedians

[dreamgazer]

What does that have to do with moral ambiguity?

Care to give an example of something that fits what you are talking about?

Sure. A person will get written up if they leave the lights on at the shop they work at. Employee A left the lights on, and will get fired if reported. Do you notify the manager and get the employee fired, losing their livelihood, or do you not mention it and defy your employer?

People who do evil things can still succeed. Stalin committed some of the worst atrocities in human history, yet he succeeded turning the Soviet Union into a world power. Doesn't mean what he did isn't still evil and wrong.

We're talking about identical objectives here, though.

I recall Dragon Age having parts that aren't morally ambiguous but plain black and white. Care to give a specific example?

How would you know if it didn't give you little red or blue points?

[iM3GTR]

Sure. A person will get written up if they leave the lights on at the shop they work at. Employee A left the lights on, and will get fired if reported. Do you notify the manager and get the employee fired, losing their livelihood, or do you not mention it and defy your employer?

The employer fires people for leaving the lights on? What a jerk.

[dreamgazer]

The employer fires people for leaving the lights on? What a jerk.

Leaving the power on overnight uses electricity, losing money for the business.

[jtav]

Paragon/Renegade was an inconsistent messs that hurt roleplaying. It didn't help that Paragon was sometimes about a kneejerk emotional reaction, not a moral choice.

[Monk]

Ah, yeah--I'm pretty sure they did something similar in DA2 with the various personalities.

 

I'm actually going through DA2 now and i'm not seeing those options. Sometimes there are four or more options versus the normal three but that's about it. They maybe more extreme depending on the circumstances but they're not predicated on previous choices like ME3's system that required so much P/R in order to get the more "severe" options.

 

 

I'm okay without such a stark Naive Hero/Utter Jerk alignment system. The main thing I'm going to miss if that is removed is interrupts. I really like the spur of the moment reactions and some were just fun. Some were sweet, like Tali's hug. Some were awesome, like a paragon Shep threatening to pistol whip Dr. Archer.

 

I hope they keep, and if possible, add more interrupts.

 

 

This is from the big survey leak, so it's not official - even if everything we've seen so far has pointed to that leak being pretty genuine - but I still feel like it's worth mentioning with how specifically relevant it is to this topic:

 

"Building upon the rich history of strategic dialogue that has defined the Mass Effect series, you can make meaningful choices in every conversation you have with characters that impact the way your game evolves. The next Mass Effect adds deeper control over your conversations through a greater ability to interrupt and change the course of the conversation as it is happening. During certain conversations, you will be able to take action based choices, such as the option to pull out your gun and force someone to open a door instead of convincing them to do it through conversational guile. Action based choices give you more options for how you approach dialogue with characters in the game and can lead to more extreme outcomes on the story as it evolves around the decisions you make when interacting with a huge cast of NPC characters."

 

So, assuming that's not a load of bollocks, it sounds like they're planning to significantly expand the interrupt system, if anything.

 

Spoiler

Hope your puppy's doing okay! My dog's coming up on ten, which is fairly old for her breed, and it's always ridiculously stressful whenever she has a health problem bad enough to need surgery.

 

Saa-weeet, hope they keep with the interrupts idea.

[iM3GTR]

Leaving the power on overnight uses electricity, losing money for the business.

Yeah. It was supposed to be a joke but it isn't even funny. I would probably turn the lights off myself and not tell the boss. That would be the paragon option.

[dreamgazer]

Yeah. It was supposed to be a joke but it isn't even funny. I would probably turn the lights off myself and not tell the boss. That would be the paragon option.

Would that be the paragon option? You're lying by omission.

[iM3GTR]

Would that be the paragon option? You're lying by omission.

In the original post you said the person being fired would lose their livelihood. Does someone deserve to suffer (and maybe if they had children to support, they would suffer too) because you decided to report them. I would say that if you wanted to make the right decision, it would be to not say anything.

[dreamgazer]

In the original post you said the person being fired would lose their livelihood. Does someone deserve to suffer (and maybe if they had children to support, they would suffer too) because you decided to report them. I would say that if you wanted to make the right decision, it would be to not say anything.

You're not obeying the rules and you're deceiving somebody, though.

[iM3GTR]

You're not obeying the rules and your deceiving somebody, though.

But if obeying one small rule potentially screws someone's life over, is it worth it?

For example, if someone was seriously ill or injured, it would be a better thing to park on a path and get them into hospital. This would break one rule, but it is better than the alternative.

[jtav]

Since covering up Rael's actions is Parago, I'd say the examp;e is indeed Paragon. Incidentally, that's probably the point where I have the strongest disagreement with the game.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think we need some sort of indication, when clicking on a dialogue choice or an interrupt, what exactly is likely to happen. I just wouldn't use paragon/renegade points to lock out dialogue choices, and I'd implement a factional and/or personal approval system similar to what was used in Fallout: New Vegas (for factions) or the Dragon Age games (for other characters), with the approvals driving changes in how people react to you rather than the paragon/renegade ratings.

 

Part of the problem with paragon/renegade is that it variously reflected different and sometimes incompatible contrasts: conciliatory vs. confrontational, principled vs. expedient, and sometimes multilateralist vs. unilateralist in how Shepard relates to other species and organizations. Sometimes being principled and multilateralist requires chewing somebody out, as I usually do to Gerrel for his warmongering in ME3, and yet I ended up getting renegade points for it at one point. (And I didn't punch him, I just yelled at him after he fired on the dreadnought while Shepard's squad was still on board.)

 

Instead of getting morality points for yelling at Gerrel, maybe Shepard would get something like:

 

Legion +5

Koris +2
Tali +1

Gerrel -3

 

Or maybe:

Geth +5

Civilian Fleet +2

Heavy Fleet -3

 

And this in turn would affect the different ways in which Shepard can negotiate geth/quarian peace later, with it becoming impossible if Shepard has negative ratings from most of the key characters/factions at the end of the Rannoch missions.

[Totally Not a Poodle]

Getting rid of Paragon and Renegade... I'm not sure how I feel about that.

What I absolutely do not want though is the Paragon option being complete the quest and the Renegade option being ignore it. That really angered me in Inquisition. I shouldn't have to have a quest log full of unfinished side missions, simply because I want to finish the game as evil as possible.

[Mr.House]

OP's clearly never played other crpgs. FO1/2, NV, wasteland 2, DAO ect all have choices where you can be a complete dick or be evil vwithout the paragon and renegade crap. Using DAI as the definition of grey is silly.