253 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

Because it is part of what made Mass Effect Mass Effect. It'd be like KOTOR 3 no longer having Light Side/Dark Side meters that can influence the game. 

 

Moral ambiguity is nonsense. An act is either right or it is wrong. The concept of moral ambiguity is just a mechanism for people who commit wrongdoings to convince themselves it wasn't wrong. 

What part of Dragon Age are you talking about? 

I hated Fallout: New Vegas. 

 

I'd wager you haven't made many tough decisions in your life if you think if morality is absolute like that. Sometimes people are pushed to do things they don't want to by circumstances. Sometimes there are misunderstandings or failures to communicate. And sometimes, someone's definition of right and wrong isn't your own.

[ssanyesz]

Sure. A person will get written up if they leave the lights on at the shop they work at. Employee A left the lights on, and will get fired if reported. Do you notify the manager and get the employee fired, losing their livelihood, or do you not mention it and defy your employer?

 

 

Yeah. It was supposed to be a joke but it isn't even funny. I would probably turn the lights off myself and not tell the boss. That would be the paragon option.

 

And there are other options where you blackmail / extort the employer (for keeping quiet), and then have him/her fired (or not). This somehow reminds me some quest on Noveria in ME1.

[In Exile]

Paragon/Renegade was an inconsistent messs that hurt roleplaying. It didn't help that Paragon was sometimes about a kneejerk emotional reaction, not a moral choice.

And Renegade was often pointlessly sadistic - Shepard announcing his pro-genocide stance with the Rachni, for example. It's a silly contrivance that forced the writers to invent point generating options for situations that sometimes shouldn't have them.

[In Exile]

Since covering up Rael's actions is Parago, I'd say the examp;e is indeed Paragon. Incidentally, that's probably the point where I have the strongest disagreement with the game.

I don't think that's the reason for the choice - it seems to be more the nice/douche option in terms of doing what Tali wants versus not.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'd wager you haven't made many tough decisions in your life if you think if morality is absolute like that.

You wager incorrectly. Though that is as far as I wish to go in the realm of personal so please do not pursue this further. 

[ssanyesz]

And Renegade was often pointlessly sadistic - Shepard announcing his pro-genocide stance with the Rachni, for example. It's a silly contrivance that forced the writers to invent point generating options for situations that sometimes shouldn't have them.

 

But wasn't it also realistic? Even if cold, they were silently controlled by the Reapers after all.

[In Exile]

You wager incorrectly. Though that is as far as I wish to go in the realm of personal so please do not pursue this further.

We can keep it to the realm of the abstract - your position is wrong because it assumes that moral systems don't have conflicting duties. That's wrong. We can have the usual deontological conundrum of whether to lie or steal to save lives.

[In Exile]

But wasn't it also realistic? Even if cold, they were silently controlled by the Reapers after all.

I'm talking about ME1.

[ssanyesz]

I'm talking about ME1.

 

About Noveria, no?

[In Exile]

About Noveria, no?

Yes. Shepard has a "stay dead" or whatever type of quote - it's done with a great deal of malice.

[Seraphim24]

I'd wager you haven't made many tough decisions in your life if you think if morality is absolute like that. Sometimes people are pushed to do things they don't want to by circumstances. Sometimes there are misunderstandings or failures to communicate. And sometimes, someone's definition of right and wrong isn't your own.

 

I'm with Hanako, that's an excuse.

 

"Someone's definition of right and wrong isn't your own" is the same thing as saying I'm right even when others contest me, a crass sentiment, to be blunt.

[In Exile]

I'm with Hanako, that's an excuse.

"Someone's definition of right and wrong isn't your own" is the same thing as saying I'm right even when others contest me, a stupid sentiment, to be blunt.

Moral duties conflict. That's moral ambiguity. It's not a controversial idea.

[Seraphim24]

Moral duties conflict. That's moral ambiguity. It's not a controversial idea.

 

No, you just don't get someone else, that's your own problem. That's not "moral ambiguity"

[Seraphim24]

Anyway as to the topic I'd rather it be a more "explicit" morality, clear indications of good and evil, gray is the norm and has been the norm. Bioware innovated by ditching the concept of "normal gray" this would just be retrograde.

 

Game of Thrones is an unethical series and GRRM is despicable for precisely that reason, it's all this banter of "good and evil" being gray all the whilist carry out their neverending chaotic evil shenanigans.,,

[Mr.House]

Anyway as to the topic I'd rather it be a more "explicit" morality, clear indications of good and evil, gray is the norm and has been the norm. Bioware innovated by ditching the concept of "normal gray" this would just be retrograde.

Bioware didn't do ****. They gave a clear black and white with white being heavy favored. DAO did grey better then ME games ever did, even bloody TOR did a better job with grey and that's fricken star wars. If you liked that then cool, but that's not innovation, that's restricting rp.

[In Exile]

No, you just don't get someone else, that's your own problem. That's not "moral ambiguity"

Huh? The first sentence doesn't make sense grammatically. A moral code that has no conflicting duties would be such an intellectual achievement you'd be forever immortalized in philosophy. I'm not saying you haven't stumbled on something every other moral philosopher has failed to do - but let's just say I'd like an illustration.

[In Exile]

Anyway as to the topic I'd rather it be a more "explicit" morality, clear indications of good and evil, gray is the norm and has been the norm. Bioware innovated by ditching the concept of "normal gray" this would just be retrograde.

Game of Thrones is an unethical series and GRRM is despicable for precisely that reason, it's all this banter of "good and evil" being gray all the whilist carry out their neverending chaotic evil shenanigans.,,

You've missed GRRM's point, which is that human's are not morally perfect beings. If you read his work and your take away is that people are shitty and awful to each other - congrats: that's the very thing he wants to convey.

[Seraphim24]

Morality can be way more universal, you just have to look outside of Europe and a few of the prized "centers of learning and achievement" to find it.

[KaiserShep]

Just another thing about Mass Effect that they are throwing away.  
 
And this more shades of grey thing probably means more "Morally ambiguous/grey/edgy/dark things are cool" like Bioware has started doing more and more.  

In what way is the removal of this system a truly bad thing? Do you really need a meter to know whether or not your character is being a jerk? It's not an actual part of the MEverse. It's essentially just an oft inconsistent personality meter that doesn't really have any big impact on the story.

[ssanyesz]

Yes. Shepard has a "stay dead" or whatever type of quote - it's done with a great deal of malice.

Indeed he/she had. Almost sounded proud of him/herself.

[Seraphim24]

You've missed GRRM's point, which is that human's are not morally perfect beings. If you read his work and your take away is that people are shitty and awful to each other - congrats: that's the very thing he wants to convey.

 

And he has to be a despicable person to earnestly just represent that without comment or fighting back, it amounts to enforcement and support of the concept.

 

Like if I just make a character and just have them kill everything in a video game for no reason, that's effectively acknowledging it as valid, or comprehensible or something.

 

Not everyone is like his characters.

 

The reality is if the White Walkers win that would almost arguably be positive for the world he created, which is.... really.... really messed up.

[AlanC9]

The employer fires people for leaving the lights on? What a jerk.

Most morality hypotheticals require someone, sometime, to be a jerk, yes. Sometimes it's God, even.

[Mr.House]

And this ladies and gentlemen is why the bsn is mocked. People have been asking for years for Bioware to remove this crappy system, they are and now people are coming out oft he wood work to defend it. This is the Mako all over again.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In what way is the removal of this system a truly bad thing? Do you really need a meter to know whether or not your character is being a jerk? It's not an actual part of the MEverse. It's essentially just an oft inconsistent personality meter that doesn't really have any big impact on the story.

I'm not referring to just the meters. From what I gathered in the article, the whole thing of Paragon and Renegade choices are being thrown away and being replaced with shades of grey choices. I'm not a fan of now having to choose the least evil choice rather than choosing a genuinely good choice. 

[Seraphim24]

Anyway I'm just over gray, 50 Shades of Gray sucked, all these gray anti-heroic characters suck, it's old hat, bring on the empowered moralities and characters that don't wallow in pity or confusion or project that onto the world.