99 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

Strange, because I felt closer to my companions in DAI than I did in DAO. I mean, I really loved Morrigan, Zevran, and Sten, but I really loved Sera and Dorian and Bull and Blackwall and Cole and-- yeah, you get the point. Felt extremely close to the cast of DA2, also.

I think that feelings of friendship or fellowship are so subjective that it's not much of a case either way. Different people got different things out of different relationships.

[Phoe77]

I agree.  I'm much more attached to most of my companions in Inquisition than most of the ones in Origins.  Even the ones I like the least are still great characters who I never hesitate to recruit.  Conversely, I find Sten and, sometimes, Morrigan to be insufferable in Origins and I might not even notice if Oghren were to suddenly disappear altogether.  The companions and advisers are among the best things in Inquisition and each of them feels like a legitimate person with a range of believable thoughts and feelings rather than just a character that's there to check a box off the list.

 

Anyway, I can kind of agree that Origins did seem somewhat more desolate, but it's also worth noting that a lot of that can be attributed to the story that was being told.  A Blight is pretty much the worst thing that Thedas has to offer, and even the hope that the Grey Wardens provide is bought with an enormous sacrifice, even before you take into consideration what happens to the one that kills the archdemon.  

 

Inquisition, in my opinion, fully intends to evoke a different set of themes than Origins does.  Inquisition is just as much about faith and hope as it is about violence and hubris.  Characters never stop reminding your character that one of the most beneficial things that  they provide is hope and the possibility of setting things right.  I think that the game choosing to also emphasis the positive effects of faith ends up lending the plot a sense of both genuine optimism and a completeness that would have been lacking if faith and religion had only been seen as a negative.

[Big I]

Nor, for that matter, do I remember any real explanation as to how you conveniently only manage to save mages who aren't possessed/blood magic users during Broken Circle.

 

You can save one of the blood mages in Broken Circe. You can either kill them, let them run away to become an apostate, or (if you specced to blood mage, assassin or reaver) recuit them to your army. You can also let a Desire demon escape the tower with a mind controlled templar.

[Big I]

I liked DA:I. I played through it three times. That said, it's by no means my favorite DA game.

 

I thought the first act of the game (everything before In You Heart Shall Burn) was great. Debating with the advisors about the right course of action, no clear leader, desperatley trying to close a hole in the sky, I loved all that. Even Corypheus turning up to wreck your stuff was great. Everything after that fell flat. The optional areas like the Hissing Wastes etc lacked compelling stories. The main quests felt shoehorned in (I was not surprised to learn that the Temple of Mythal was a remnant from the cancelled Exalted March expansion, since I'm still not sure what Corypheus specifically wanted from the Well of Sorrows). And then when I eventually fought Corypheus he was laughably easy.

 

Systems wise, I really enjoyed DA:I. I thought crafting was amazing, and I enjoyed playing a KE mage far more than playing a mage in DA:O or DA2. Story and companion wise, DA:O did it better. And then Trespasser came along and rendered it all meaningless by nerfing the Inquisition and setting up Evil Solas.

[Zero]

My only complaint with DAI is that I felt my choices didn't matter. I can decide to ally with the templars, and it didn't matter because Corypheus will still have his Red Templar army. I can get the mages as my allies, and it won't matter, because the Circles in the end will be restored. In DAO my choices had an effect, even if a small one, in the outcome of the history. I could return Bevin's sword, and he will become a great warrior; or buy it and his sister will marry Teagan. This is even more rewarding in Awakening, as doing stuff like giving the smith some ores will end with the foundation of a whole order of knights.

 

For the rest, I like the improvements DAI had offered to DA as a whole.

[PhroXenGold]

You can save one of the blood mages in Broken Circe. You can either kill them, let them run away to become an apostate, or (if you specced to blood mage, assassin or reaver) recuit them to your army. You can also let a Desire demon escape the tower with a mind controlled templar.

 

I was referring to how none of the ones that survive are secretly blood mages or even worse abominations with the sense to hide their nature until after you've restored the circle. Not that "oh I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been evil" one, but the kind of person who is going to break the Circle again as soon as they have the opportunity. It just happens that none of the mages you rescue at the end was corrupted. After all that exposure to blood magic and demons, they're all fine? None of them fell to temptation? Really?

 

Cullen being right would've made for a far more interesting, darker story....

[PhroXenGold]

My only complaint with DAI is that I felt my choices didn't matter. I can decide to ally with the templars, and it didn't matter because Corypheus will still have his Red Templar army. I can get the mages as my allies, and it won't matter, because the Circles in the end will be restored. In DAO my choices had an effect, even if a small one, in the outcome of the history. I could return Bevin's sword, and he will become a great warrior; or buy it and his sister will marry Teagan. This is even more rewarding in Awakening, as doing stuff like giving the smith some ores will end with the foundation of a whole order of knights.

 

For the rest, I like the improvements DAI had offered to DA as a whole.

 

The problem I have is that none of your choices in DA:O matter in DA:O. They change the epilogues, but nothing actually affects the game in a remotely meaningful way. You get a few different bits of dialogue, maybe a battle where you're on the other side, but that's it. There's no divergent content based on your decisions. At least DA:I has the choice between mages and templars which leads to some genuinely different content, with completely different areas, story and enemies, even if it does reconverge afterwards.

[Zero]

The problem I have is that none of your choices in DA:O matter in DA:O. They change the epilogues, but nothing actually affects the game in a remotely meaningful way. You get a few different bits of dialogue, maybe a battle where you're on the other side, but that's it. There's no divergent content based on your decisions. At least DA:I has the choice between mages and templars which leads to some genuinely different content, with completely different areas, story and enemies, even if it does reconverge afterwards.

 

If I use the Right of Annulment, I get templars instead of mages. If I wiped out the dalish, I get werewolves. If I kill Caridin, I can get golems for the final battle. If I kill Vaughan in the CE origin, I lost a potential vote in the landsmeet. One time I forget to talk with Anora before the landsmeet and she betrayed me. Heck, my HoF's father doesn't give me my mother's dagger if I accept Vaughan's gold. 

 

Granted, isn't a whole new area, or a new storyline, but those decisions had an impact in the game, and I can see those impacts. More than saving the Templars to still see Corypheus commanding Red Templars. Or Grey Wardens. Like, all my efforts didn't matter in the end. Yeah, I have one boss as a rival instead of the other, but the impact that boss had in the story ends when that boss is deal with. Worse still, the other boss disappears without being dealing with. At least in DAO you didn't had loose ends. 

[PhroXenGold]

If I use the Right of Annulment, I get templars instead of mages. If I wiped out the dalish, I get werewolves. If I kill Caridin, I can get golems for the final battle. If I kill Vaughan in the CE origin, I lost a potential vote in the landsmeet. One time I forget to talk with Anora before the landsmeet and she betrayed me. Heck, my HoF's father doesn't give me my mother's dagger if I accept Vaughan's gold. 

 

Granted, isn't a whole new area, or a new storyline, but those decisions had an impact in the game, and I can see those impacts. More than saving the Templars to still see Corypheus commanding Red Templars. Or Grey Wardens. Like, all my efforts didn't matter in the end. Yeah, I have one boss as a rival instead of the other, but the impact that boss had in the story ends when that boss is deal with. Worse still, the other boss disappears without being dealing with. At least in DAO you didn't had loose ends. 

 

Having a different skin on your allies in the final battle pretty much irrelevant. It's trivial changes like this and minor dialogues in terms of in game effects. Nothing more. Your decisions do not affect the course of the game. It still plays out the same every time.

 

And yeah, certainly, for much of the game DA:I suffers from the same issue. But at least it has that one section where your choices actually takes you down a completely different path for a while, which is one more section more than DA:O (or frankly any other BW games as far as I can remember) had.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I think that feelings of friendship or fellowship are so subjective that it's not much of a case either way. Different people got different things out of different relationships.

But time frame is important as well,in DAII you get to remain closer to the companions for many years.

[Toasted Llama]

His personal quest has nothing to do with being gay? Really?

 

If Tevinter wasn't obsessed with the lineage, the conflict would not exist. Whereas if Dorian were straight, he could STILL refuse to father a child or marry random noble lady x.

[mgagne]

 

Then there is the political correctness that DA:I is trying to shove down our throats. The gay and trans characters and their conflicts about acceptance. I mean looks guys, I am not a homophobic but these characters are clearly shoehorned into the game just to please the SJWs and not because these elements would naturally flow into the setting its part of.

 

 

 

*sigh*

 

 

It would have taken you as much time to uninstall DAI as it did to write this troll - why didn't you go for the former since you clearly aren't pleased with the game?

[vbibbi]

Strange, because I felt closer to my companions in DAI than I did in DAO. I mean, I really loved Morrigan, Zevran, and Sten, but I really loved Sera and Dorian and Bull and Blackwall and Cole and-- yeah, you get the point. Felt extremely close to the cast of DA2, also.

I think that feelings of friendship or fellowship are so subjective that it's not much of a case either way. Different people got different things out of different relationships.

 

While I liked more of the companions/advisors in DAI than in DAO overall, I felt the relationship was stronger in DAO. I like Alistair, Leliana, and depending on mood Morrigan and Zevran. I think Shale is funny but one note, Oghren is annoying, Sten is a good introduction to the Qun but not much as a character, Wynne is a bit preachy. But if we gain high friendship with all of them, they feel like close companions who are following the Warden not just to stop the Blight but because the believe in the HOF.

 

In DAI, I like Cassandra, Dorian, Varric (but not nearly as much as in DA2), Sera when my mood is right, and the advisors. Cole is okay but sometimes annoys me, Solas brings up too much irritation on a meta level with his story being split between games and his stupidity in giving Cory the orb. Vivienne is well written but unlikable. I don't like IB or Blackwall.

 

But even when I have high friendship with everyone, they feel like employees whom the boss gets on well with. Most of them have ulterior motives for joining the Inquisition and did so before the PC actually becomes Inquisitor. So their reason for joining is the Inquisition, not the Inquisitor.

 

Combine this with the fact that several of the characters are from previous games and I automatically associate them with the PCs of the previous games, it dilutes the relationship. Varric will always be friends with Hawke first and keep the Inquisitor at arms length. Leliana always seems fairly neutral and professional when dealing with the Inquisitor, whereas she could have been the HOF's lover. Even Cole I think was closer to Rhys in Asunder than his relationship to the Inquisitor. Rhys was his first friend, the Inquisitor was the person who showed him how to live in the physical world.

[vertigomez]

While I liked more of the companions/advisors in DAI than in DAO overall, I felt the relationship was stronger in DAO. I like Alistair, Leliana, and depending on mood Morrigan and Zevran. I think Shale is funny but one note, Oghren is annoying, Sten is a good introduction to the Qun but not much as a character, Wynne is a bit preachy. But if we gain high friendship with all of them, they feel like close companions who are following the Warden not just to stop the Blight but because the believe in the HOF.
 
In DAI, I like Cassandra, Dorian, Varric (but not nearly as much as in DA2), Sera when my mood is right, and the advisors. Cole is okay but sometimes annoys me, Solas brings up too much irritation on a meta level with his story being split between games and his stupidity in giving Cory the orb. Vivienne is well written but unlikable. I don't like IB or Blackwall.
 
But even when I have high friendship with everyone, they feel like employees whom the boss gets on well with. Most of them have ulterior motives for joining the Inquisition and did so before the PC actually becomes Inquisitor. So their reason for joining is the Inquisition, not the Inquisitor.
 
Combine this with the fact that several of the characters are from previous games and I automatically associate them with the PCs of the previous games, it dilutes the relationship. Varric will always be friends with Hawke first and keep the Inquisitor at arms length. Leliana always seems fairly neutral and professional when dealing with the Inquisitor, whereas she could have been the HOF's lover. Even Cole I think was closer to Rhys in Asunder than his relationship to the Inquisitor. Rhys was his first friend, the Inquisitor was the person who showed him how to live in the physical world.

That's what I mean, though - it's so subjective. Your experience is very different from mine. Sure, I felt like by the end of the game Wynne and Oghren and Sten were all with you because they wanted to be with you, and they wanted you to succeed on a personal level as much as they wanted to see you end the Blight.

But I didn't feel as distant from my companions in DAI as others apparently did, even with the "work" relationship in place. Tal-Vashoth Bull telling my Inquisitor that whatever he regrets, he's exactly where he wants to be, and hearing him reminisce in Trespasser about how glad he is to be kicking *** with you again... that meant a lot to me. Blackwall finding forgiveness and purpose through your actions and possible friendship, Sera finally feeling like she belongs somewhere, inviting you to the Jennies, worrying about you in her journal and trying to cheer you up...

I didn't mind that Varric would always be BFFs with Hawke before the Inquisitor or that Leliana kept a professional distance. Not anymore than I minded Cullen being closer to the Inquisitor than he ever was to the Warden. Different people, different relationships. I wouldn't expect to run into Fenris in DA4 and have him treat me like Hawke, either.

As far as ulterior motives go, I honestly don't see much difference. In DAO, Sten wants to report back to the Arishok. Leliana wants to GTFO of the Chantry. Morrigan wants a baby, Oghren wants to find Branka and maybe regain his honor, Zevran wants to not be assassinated by his former employers. They stick with you because there's a Blight on the horizon and they become close to you, but their reasons for joining you in the first place are as varied as the motivations of DAI's crew.

*shrug* That's what I mean by it being subjective. At the end of the day it's about which relationships with which characters affected the player most, and that could be any of them.

[vertigomez]

But time frame is important as well,in DAII you get to remain closer to the companions for many years.

Sure, but DAO and DAI span roughly the same amount of time, right? About a year or so? Different from DA2.

[GoldenKapparino]

I like how I put 3 lines about the political correctness and suddenly we have 2 pages just about that, with people calling me a troll and what not. Shows how easy it is to rustle some jimmies.

[BSpud]

I like how I put 3 lines about the political correctness and suddenly we have 2 pages just about that, with people calling me a troll and what not. Shows how easy it is to rustle some jimmies.

 

Well, it was a pretty dopey thing to write. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[vbibbi]

That's what I mean, though - it's so subjective. Your experience is very different from mine. Sure, I felt like by the end of the game Wynne and Oghren and Sten were all with you because they wanted to be with you, and they wanted you to succeed on a personal level as much as they wanted to see you end the Blight.

But I didn't feel as distant from my companions in DAI as others apparently did, even with the "work" relationship in place. Tal-Vashoth Bull telling my Inquisitor that whatever he regrets, he's exactly where he wants to be, and hearing him reminisce in Trespasser about how glad he is to be kicking *** with you again... that meant a lot to me. Blackwall finding forgiveness and purpose through your actions and possible friendship, Sera finally feeling like she belongs somewhere, inviting you to the Jennies, worrying about you in her journal and trying to cheer you up...

I didn't mind that Varric would always be BFFs with Hawke before the Inquisitor or that Leliana kept a professional distance. Not anymore than I minded Cullen being closer to the Inquisitor than he ever was to the Warden. Different people, different relationships. I wouldn't expect to run into Fenris in DA4 and have him treat me like Hawke, either.

As far as ulterior motives go, I honestly don't see much difference. In DAO, Sten wants to report back to the Arishok. Leliana wants to GTFO of the Chantry. Morrigan wants a baby, Oghren wants to find Branka and maybe regain his honor, Zevran wants to not be assassinated by his former employers. They stick with you because there's a Blight on the horizon and they become close to you, but their reasons for joining you in the first place are as varied as the motivations of DAI's crew.

*shrug* That's what I mean by it being subjective. At the end of the day it's about which relationships with which characters affected the player most, and that could be any of them.

 

Yeah it's all interpretation and subjective. I am definitely glad that Varric wasn't just as best buds with the Inquisitor, that wouldn't make sense and would retroactively spoil his friendship with Hawke. Ditto with Leliana.

 

For me, IB always calling me "boss" reinforced that he would always see me as a commanding officer first, friend second (I haven't done his romance so don't know if he uses kadan or something instead). It reminds me that he has the strict Qunari mindset of roles rather than individuals. It gets better when he is tal vashoth, but I don't really recall much dialogue variation in his conversations that occurs after his personal quest. Most of his dialogue with the Inquisitor is before the quest.

 

I interpreted Leliana in DAO as believing the HOF was sent by the Maker and she wanted to help their cause, not that she wanted to leave the Chantry. Yes, that still means that her motivations are based on a dream/vision rather than her friendship with the Warden, but I like her more personal reason rather than just wanting to leave her old life.

 

Oghren joins us to find Branka, but once we've done that, he chooses to stay with us because he has nowhere else to go and the Warden is the only friend he has. Theoretically, he could have tried to stay with Felsi and start a life with her, but thought the Warden's mission was too important.

 

Morrigan is an interesting case because she doesn't even want to join us, but eventually becomes a friend/lover and when her original motivation of the dark ritual becomes apparent, it's seen as a betrayal. Because she had developed a relationship with the HOF by that time.

 

 

What cemented this dynamic between companions and Inquisitor was Trespasser. This all takes place two years after the crisis is over, so the relationships we have with the characters are going to be stripped clear of the urgency of stopping Corypheus and focus more on the actual friendships (at least at the start before the Qunari attack).

 

Sera is lovely with her journal and invitation to the Red Jennies. She was surprisingly the most touching friendship to me.

 

Dorian was nice with his cell phone crystal.

 

Cassandra was still a friend but was a bit distant by being Divine or rebuilding the Seekers.

 

Varric was fairly formal. Giving us the key to Kirkwall was nice but seemed very political rather than a close buddies gesture. I've said before, he gave the Inquisitor the key to the city, he would have told Hawke the secret entrance to the throne room.

 

IB will always be closer to the Chargers than he is to a non-romanced Inquisitor, IMO. His scenes in Trespasser were about his friendship with them.

 

Blackwall came across as a friend of a friend. We caught up on small talk and then awkwardly stood around for a bit before pretending we heard someone calling for us.

 

Vivienne was nice in her own special way. A spa day is her idea of treating us, but it's not very personal. We're surrounded by spa attendants the whole time and as she's either Divine or First Enchanter, she's still a politician first, friend second.

 

Cullen was okay. Josephine was focused on work again. Leliana actually felt a bit cold to me. Maybe she was just focused on work, but she seemed removed. Cole was Cole (and possibly in a new relationship).

 

One of my favorite parts of the entire DAI game though was Dorian's going away party. This is one of the few times where I saw genuine comradery with the companions. Much more so than the Wicked Grace scene, IMO.

 

 

Note, I'm not arguing with your opinion/interpretation of the characters, since it's subjective and no one is right or wrong. I'm just providing my personal thought process behind why I see the characters as I do. Not trying to start a fight

[vertigomez]

Naw vbibbi, I understand where you're coming from! Like I said, everyone interprets the friendships differently. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

(Though about Bull's use of "boss" - I never felt it was a distancing thing, but that's mostly 'cause I have him at high approval and it sounds much warmer and more fond, so it's a term-of-respect-turned-nickname, like how Krem calls him Chief. He's his boss, sure, but he's also a dear friend.)

[Reznore57]

I agree with Vbibbi , Inquisition felt "professional" , companions (and advisors especially) were like people you work with at the office.(ok maybe not Sera...)

That something even if it fits Inquisition , I did not care for.

I much prefer DA2 companions who imho started to feel like a dysfunctional family at the end.I can easily imagine those all together at Aveline wedding or drinking at the Hanged Man ...but in DAI the drinking and card game felt awkward and out of place.And of course some people weren't there Leliana , Solas and Vivienne.

And again when there's the toast to Dorian departure in Trespasser , you have Bull , Varric , Sera , and perhaps Cole , the rest had better stuff to do.

[BourbonDingo]

I like how I put 3 lines about the political correctness and suddenly we have 2 pages just about that, with people calling me a troll and what not. Shows how easy it is to rustle some jimmies.

 

When it comes to writing a persuasive argument, the last point you argue is meant to be the most powerful point of your argument.  Not to mention that you followed those lines with 'This is one of the main reasons...'.  When people counter arguments, they are most likely going to counter the last part of your argument.

 

There are problems with the game, mechanically.  Tonally, though?  That's subjective.

[vbibbi]

Naw vbibbi, I understand where you're coming from! Like I said, everyone interprets the friendships differently. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

(Though about Bull's use of "boss" - I never felt it was a distancing thing, but that's mostly 'cause I have him at high approval and it sounds much warmer and more fond, so it's a term-of-respect-turned-nickname, like how Krem calls him Chief. He's his boss, sure, but he's also a dear friend.)

 

The Qun-loyal Bull's betrayal in Trespasser with "bas" does make me wonder about things   It was a really cool moment (according to YouTube, I didn't import a Qun Bull into Trespasser) and well written I thought. It demonstrates his abilities as a spy.

 

I don't think he consciously thinks of the Inquisitor as bas if he's tal vashoth, but I do think it's always going to be subconscious. He's too conditioned to permanently abandon all Qunari thinking. It's not going to influence his relationship with the Inquisitor, but I personally don't think I could get over that nagging that he'll always remember the Qun.

 

I agree with Vbibbi , Inquisition felt "professional" , companions (and advisors especially) were like people you work with at the office.(ok maybe not Sera...)

That something even if it fits Inquisition , I did not care for.

I much prefer DA2 companions who imho started to feel like a dysfunctional family at the end.I can easily imagine those all together at Aveline wedding or drinking at the Hanged Man ...but in DAI the drinking and card game felt awkward and out of place.And of course some people weren't there Leliana , Solas and Vivienne.

And again when there's the toast to Dorian departure in Trespasser , you have Bull , Varric , Sera , and perhaps Cole , the rest had better stuff to do.

 

I mean, I think the professional tone worked for DAI, since we are the leader of the Inquisition. We maybe could have had a bit more friendship from some (Varric, Sera, Blackwall) in Haven when we weren't yet a leader, but I guess we were still a messiah figure.

 

I prefer the family feel of DA2's cast, as well, and again that makes sense because that game takes place over 7 years and you'd expect a closer bond.

 

I will say that I'm glad the toast to Dorian didn't have everyone. It would have felt artificial and cheesy. As it was, it was the people Dorian considered his closest friends from the Inquisition. It's a group of friends going to a nice dinner rather than the middle school birthday party where your parents make you invite the whole class.

 

(I'm still irked that he calls the Inquisitor his only friend. Pretty insulting to Cole, Sera, Varric and IB).

[mgagne]

I like how I put 3 lines about the political correctness and suddenly we have 2 pages just about that, with people calling me a troll and what not. Shows how easy it is to rustle some jimmies.

 

 

I'm sorry but when I read the trite argument about BW trying to force the gay/LGBT agenda down the player's throat, peppered here and there with SJW references, I get annoyed.  I enjoyed W3 and appreciated all the things they did right but I never identified that much Geralt, because he is and can never be anything other than a rough cut ladies' man.  However you won't see me haunt the CDPR forums to bemoan that fact.  Now the OP might be new here but there's a vocal minority that recycle and belabor these arguments like broken records.  It got old after the first 97 times - and there are still years to go before D4.

[Catilina]

[...] Cullen being closer to the Inquisitor than he ever was to the Warden. [...]

(I would have happy if he comes even closer to my Inquisitor... )

[Catilina]

My Problem with the Inquisition is that because of the many goofy boring trash "quests" and stupid gathering I lost my interest to everything quickly.