47 réponses à ce sujet

[Zero]

The only thing I know is that to ancient elves "magic came as easily to them as breathing". Can't say if that means every ancient elf was a mage. We know, however, elves are more attuned to magic that other races.

[Aren]

Because she's a stupid that underestimates any risk but overestimates her mother.

"Bond to the will of an ancient God? No problem, Kieran would be fine if this goes out of my hands"

"Turne to be that the God is my mother? No! Leave me alone and leave my child alone!"

I noticed that attitude as well.

She tends to underestimate every danger but at the same time to incredibly fear Flemeth.

[Almostfaceman]

That line implies that magic has something to do with their immortality. Not the cause, but is related to it. Elves, after all, are more attuned to magic than humans or Qunari. 

 

No, it says directly that their nature brings a subtle beauty to their magic. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

He's a well travelled mage that frequently walks the Fade. Now, his knowledge may be considered not 100% accurate due to the nature of the Fade, but he has heard more stories than any non-Fade walker.

His stories can be taken with as much seriousness as any Dalish story teller.
 

He is telling you details about the elves,about Arlathan and to what their immortality was,details about their magic..

In other dialogues he took genuinly offense at asking to be the carrier of the well of sorrow....please that far beyond of knowldge simply built upon memories of spirits...he is telling you details...not just the past..

[Daerog]

He is telling you details about the elves,about Arlathan and to what their immortality was,details about their magic..
In other dialogues he took genuinly offense at asking to be the carrier of the well of sorrow....please that far beyond of knowldge simply built upon memories of spirits...

Morrigan is just a human mage and discovered how to use the mirrors and about a realm between the Fade and material world. She also isn't known to walk the Fade specifically to find lost knowledge. She also has opinions on the Well and other things. She comes off as more knowledgeable or just as knowledgeable as Solas, except on elf history.

The Inquisitor stumbles upon lost knowledge a lot.

It's not a stretch to think yet another elf thinks they know it all just because they went solo searching in ancient ruins and checking out memories in the Fade. Dalish story tellers tell a lot of tales they think are completely true.

Solas can be perceived to be a Dalish Morrigan at first, thinking he is always in the right just because he knows some stuff few others know and feels confident in filling in the gaps. He pretty much is the Morrigan of Inquisition. His words are only used in discussion because it turned out he was the Dread Wolf. Morrigan's words can still be dismissed as biased opinion based more on ego than facts.

One can still view the PC as stupid, but I just wish to offer an opposing view, that the Inquisitor thinks Solas knows some stuff based on his old adventures and is probably making more conclusions based on guesses than evidence.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Morrigan is just a human mage and discovered how to use the mirrors and about a realm between the Fade and material world. She also isn't known to walk the Fade specifically to find lost knowledge. She also has opinions on the Well and other things. She comes off as more knowledgeable or just as knowledgeable as Solas, except on elf history.

The Inquisitor stumbles upon lost knowledge a lot.

It's not a stretch to think yet another elf thinks they know it all just because they went solo searching in ancient ruins and checking out memories in the Fade. Dalish story tellers tell a lot of tales they think are completely true.

Solas can be perceived to be a Dalish Morrigan at first, thinking he is always in the right just because he knows some stuff few others know and feels confident in filling in the gaps. He pretty much is the Morrigan of Inquisition. His words are only used in discussion because it turned out he was the Dread Wolf. Morrigan's words can still be dismissed as biased opinion based more on ego than facts.

One can still view the PC as stupid, but I just wish to offer an opposing view, that the Inquisitor thinks Solas knows some stuff based on his old adventures and is probably making more conclusions based on guesses than evidence.

Morrigan doesn't even came close to the degree of knowledge Solas is demonstrating in his dialogues with every npc.

Morrigan doesn't know anything about the Crossroads or what they were meant to be she only learned how to make some Eluvian to work and got that far because her mother taught to her.

 

Morrigan opinions on the well of sorrow are solely based on her desires,Solas opinion on the well of sorrow is based on his understanding and knowledge since he took genuinely offence at being asked to drink(which is an odd reaction) and later(before FLemeth appear) he even told to you that now you are bound to an entity and part of your freedom belong to it.

 

He spoke perfect elven with both the Nightmare demon and Abelas and then there is one point in which in front of you Abelas call him one of our own.....and the Inquisitor still did not suspected anything....

[Daerog]

The Inquisitor doesn't say anything on it, but the suspicion or not is up to player's headcanon. He did take offense due to his knowledge, but the PC doesn't know that and can assume he knows as much as Morrigan, since they are both acting confident. The player learns about the Crossroads through Morrigan and Trespasser, so she is the expert to the PC on that stuff.

Obviously Solas was more "true elf" than even Velanna, and Abelas confirms it. At that point, Solas is an elf that really knows elf stuff and accepted by ancient elves, or is an ancient elf. However, by that time, it's known ancient elves are around and wake up, Solas could be one, and there is no need for the PC to geek/freak out about it. The earlier talks can be dismissed like any dalish elf, but ya, as the story continues, he is revealed to not be a normal elf, but then it doesn't need the PC to say or do anything more than is being done. The Dread Wolf thing could not be known to the PC until Trespasser.

There are excuses one can make as to why the PC does or does not do something, being stupid is just one headcanon.

[Xerrai]

Wait a minute...I have a feeling it was mentioned somewhere, but were all elves mages before Solas made the veil, or no?

That seems to be the case.
I believe the words Solas used were "magic was as natural as breathing" when referring to ancient elves. This would also seem to match with some Dalish legends about how all elves once had "the gift of magic" once.

[Sah291]

That seems to be the case.
I believe the words Solas used were "magic was as natural as breathing" when referring to ancient elves. This would also seem to match with some Dalish legends about how all elves once had "the gift of magic" once.

Well, if you think about it...if the Veil was not yet created, magic would be common and not something they would have seen as supernatural or "other". Although the flip side to that is, if magic were as natural as breathing, it might have been taken for granted as well. People don't consciously think much about breathing either, they just do it.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have also taken up other skills or that they also didn't have warriors, etc.

I think it makes more sense if you don't take what Solas says about magic too literal. Like, magic was not just all about creating fire balls for the elves. It's having a more magical or mystical view of the world that made magic come naturally. So it was part of the culture. The fade and spirits were simply part of the world, and they were a part of it too.

[Medhia_Nox]

Wait a minute...I have a feeling it was mentioned somewhere, but were all elves mages before Solas made the veil, or no? 

 

Technically unknown.

 

Implied in game a few times.

 

Certainly popular with the "bring the Veil down for the good of everyone" crowd.

[Xerrai]

Well, if you think about it...if the Veil was not yet created, magic would be common and not something they would have seen as supernatural or "other". Although the flip side to that is, if magic were as natural as breathing, it might have been taken for granted as well. People don't consciously think much about breathing either, they just do it.

That doesn't mean they couldn't have also taken up other skills or that they also didn't have warriors, etc.

I think it makes more sense if you don't take what Solas says about magic too literal. Like, magic was not just all about creating fire balls for the elves. It's having a more magical or mystical view of the world that made magic come naturally. So it was part of the culture. The fade and spirits were simply part of the world, and they were a part of it too.

I know. The possibility was always there that perhaps non-mage elves existed prior to the veil.
But it is curious to note that of all of the cultures, it is highly likely they had no distinction for Mage and non-Mage.
With magic being a part of nearly every facet of society/world, there was likely little distinction between a man using his own will to shape reality vs a man having expectations that the fade/spirits make reality.

So while I am inclined to admit that perhaps not elves were mages, I am willing to theorize that all elves knew how to manipulate magic to an extent. The fade was part of thier world, after all.

[Medhia_Nox]

"The pages of this book - memory?- show a solemn group of elves in an ampitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on.  Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senier lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

 

The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation.  The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist.  The unchanging world rings with its own harmony.  Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

 

Codex entry from Trespasser.

 

It doesn't answer whether or not all elves were mages... but it does answer that the Fade and Thedas were never "the same".  They have always been separate - even if then, they were much closer. 

 

The earth always has resisted magic... "fire running like water" and it has always invited disaster for those who use magic. 

[Sah291]

With magic being a part of nearly every facet of society/world, there was likely little distinction between a man using his own will to shape reality vs a man having expectations that the fade/spirits make reality.
So while I am inclined to admit that perhaps not elves were mages, I am willing to theorize that all elves knew how to manipulate magic to an extent. The fade was part of thier world, after all.

There may have been no distinction between mage and non mage, but there possibly could have been a distinction between high and low magic. So like the kind of folk magic that slaves or commoners might do, and similar to what the Dalish in modern Thedas still practice, and the high magic that the nobility, priests, and Evanuris would be capable of.

I would be willing to bet this kind of distinction still exists in Tevinter, where they have mages who are not part of the Magisterium, Chantry, or part of the nobility--for example those born to non mages and with no magical lineage, and people like Calpernia.

In fact it does exist, look at the codex entries about hedge magic. Unofficially trained mages are considered to have some kind of arcane derangement and aren't as respected. Consider also that Solas has referred to himself as self taught and also was involved in a slave rebellion.

[Xerrai]

"The pages of this book - memory?- show a solemn group of elves in an ampitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on. Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senier lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

Codex entry from Trespasser.

It doesn't answer whether or not all elves were mages... but it does answer that the Fade and Thedas were never "the same". They have always been separate - even if then, they were much closer.

The earth always has resisted magic... "fire running like water" and it has always invited disaster for those who use magic.

Right. But it is important to note the distinction between an environmental state (reality vs fade) and an artificial construct (veil)
The constant interaction between the two environments was just that--interaction. It may have been suffused in certain areas (likely the surface where elves dwelt) but ultimately there was distinction between the two states. But it was more how they interacted that is of prime interest.

To use a poor analogy:
In ancient times, reality and fade were like the beach and the ocean. Sometimes the ocean swelled and sometimes the tides pull out. But for those who relied on one or both, these sort of interactions are what either allowed them to exist or allowed them to live in more prime conditions. Think of things like sea turtles, crabs, bacteria, seagulls and the like that are heavily intwinned with sea-land ecosystems. In the DA verse, this would likely equate to how Reality-Fade relationship would allow for things like elves, ancient dwarves and the like lived in such an environment (depending on how much the fade 'swelled' in a particular area of course).

The two being in 'conflict' was not necessarily a bad thing.

Then we have modern Thedas, which basically put up a permanent dam between sea and land. It has a few cracks and holes but it still stands. It was great for those who never want to have thier homes flooded, or have thier populace drown. But in so doing they all but exterminated the interaction between the two states. An interaction that likely allowed other aspects of the environment to flourish.

This was not necessarily a bad thing either. It likely even allowed particular races (ex. Humans) to flourish even while others withered away (ex. Elves).

But there will always be the question if forsaking that interaction was truly better overall for the world instead of letting it continue. Of if it even matters so long as it benefits your race(s).

(I'm not necessarily trying to make a point here, just adding a bit to the conversation)

[Xerrai]

There may have been no distinction between mage and non mage, but there possibly could have been a distinction between high and low magic. So like the kind of folk magic that slaves or commoners might do, and similar to what the Dalish in modern Thedas still practice, and the high magic that the nobility, priests, and Evanuris would be capable of.

I would be willing to bet this kind of distinction still exists in Tevinter, where they have mages who are not part of the Magisterium, Chantry, or part of the nobility--for example those born to non mages and with no magical lineage, and people like Calpernia.

In fact it does exist, look at the codex entries about hedge magic. Unofficially trained mages are considered to have some kind of arcane derangement and aren't as respected. Consider also that Solas has referred to himself as self taught and also was involved in a slave rebellion.

Oh I'm sure there was some sort of distinction.

People love making distinctions.
Nobles to commoners, priests to warriors, right by birth to right by merit. Most class systems rely on making distinctions between people.

For the elves, it seems thier distinctions between classes started as a simple difference of magical talent, but evolved into something more. Probably had an elite class based on birthright rather than merit. Then you have the evanuris/'gods' on top of it all.

[Sah291]

"The pages of this book - memory?- show a solemn group of elves in an ampitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on.  Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senier lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.
 
The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation.  The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist.  The unchanging world rings with its own harmony.  Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."
 
Codex entry from Trespasser.
 
It doesn't answer whether or not all elves were mages... but it does answer that the Fade and Thedas were never "the same".  They have always been separate - even if then, they were much closer. 
 
The earth always has resisted magic... "fire running like water" and it has always invited disaster for those who use magic.

The codex says the earth rings with its own harmony. So yeah, I think this suggests that Thedas and the Fade are not the same, but like polarities. Thedas is/was also ruled by the Titans at some point, presumably. Fire doesn't flow like water, and Stone doesn't rise like mist. In other words, Thedas has its own set of rules, and the spirit was telling elves they could either learn to work together with it, with delicate and subtle magic, or against it and invite disaster trying to dominate it.

Apparently they didn't take that advice though, since some kind of big war went down.

[DreamerM]

Considering the role Solas is built up to play in the next game, I imagine the question of his immortality is going to come up. He says that being immortal was "part of being elven."

...By the way, did you know we can thank J.R.R Tolkien for the word "elven?" His publisher wanted to correct it to "elfan." Tolkien brought his weight as a linguist down on the poor man and said no, "elven" was the absolute correct form of the word. Also, he insisted they were "elves" not "elfs." Thank you professor...

...If we happen to use Tolkien's elves as a guide, then the ancient elves did not grow sick or age, but could still be killed by violence. Solas may be one of those.

[Kabraxal]

Considering the role Solas is built up to play in the next game, I imagine the question of his immortality is going to come up. He says that being immortal was "part of being elven."
...By the way, did you know we can thank J.R.R Tolkien for the word "elven?" His publisher wanted to correct it to "elfan." Tolkien brought his weight as a linguist down on the poor man and said no, "elven" was the absolute correct form of the word. Also, he insisted they were "elves" not "elfs." Thank you professor...
...If we happen to use Tolkien's elves as a guide, then the ancient elves did not grow sick or age, but could still be killed by violence. Solas may be one of those.

If I recall correctly, they were also "reborn" to live anew as well. Something mirrored in how the spirits of the fade are never destroyed, just change after "death". And given how Solas and Flemeth are as much spirit as flesh, there is a distinct similarity to the elves of Tolkein. Though the elves of Dragon Age are less the emodiement of good than in Tolkein's world.

[Daerog]

If I recall correctly, they were also "reborn" to live anew as well. Something mirrored in how the spirits of the fade are never destroyed, just change after "death". And given how Solas and Flemeth are as much spirit as flesh, there is a distinct similarity to the elves of Tolkein. Though the elves of Dragon Age are less the emodiement of good than in Tolkein's world.

Well, at least they don't die from despair.

[DreamerM]

If I recall correctly, they were also "reborn" to live anew as well. Something mirrored in how the spirits of the fade are never destroyed, just change after "death". And given how Solas and Flemeth are as much spirit as flesh, there is a distinct similarity to the elves of Tolkein.

Right, since the elves were the First Born and were more in tune with the Valar and Valinor then the other races.

Although I doubt Solas, at least, is using any particular magic specifically to prolong his life.  I think he was telling the truth when he said immortality was just a thing that elves once had, and that he (and some others) still have. Mythal was slain, and had to find some way to return through another, which I think is the "secret of functional immortality" that Solas mentions Corytheus discovering.

It makes me wonder if maybe the Archdemon's switch-to-another-form ability... and maybe blight magic as a whole...  was born from some misguided desire to find some way to live on through others.
 

Well, at least they don't die from despair.

True Dat. Plus side of being elven: you're slim, sexy, magical and 25 forever and ever. Downside: getting really sad is deadly. Ennui can literally kill you.

[Secret Rare]

It makes me wonder if maybe the Archdemon's switch-to-another-form ability... and maybe blight magic as a whole...  was born from some misguided desire to find some way to live on through others.
 

 

Blight magic is the result of a critter who live in anger beneath the earth and that must not be disturbed.

[Gervaise]

Back before DAI the Dalish belief was that the ancient elves were both ageless and magical.   They lost both properties at the same time that they lost their gods.    Amazingly enough this belief of theirs is entirely correct.     I'd always wondered if the elves ageless quality was due to the effects of magic but Solas was adamant that it was not and that agelessness, like magic, was an integral part of their nature.   

 

Where the business with Zathrian is relevant to the debate is that he tied his lifeforce to that of a spirit in the process of enacting his curse.    This is what appears to have given him his effective immortality.   Does anyone know, if you choose to kill Witherfang on his behalf, is it ever intimated that Zathrian is no longer ageless?

 

The ageless qualities of the elves could have been because they began as spirits that became more material, like Cole, or were in some way tied to spirits, like Wynne or Anders but through some mental connection outside their body rather than being possessed.   If the former then raising the Veil cut them off from the life giving Fade making them become mortal; if the latter then it cut them off from their life giving spirit.   

 

As for their magical qualities, I have no doubt that their mages varied in the amount of power they possessed, just as modern mages do, but the fact that Solas could describe them as Tranquil suggests they were all mages before the Veil was raised.     There is also the matter of foci.   These were tied to specific gods but from what Solas said to Dorian it wasn't just the gods who possessed them but their chief servants (priesthood) as well.   It may have been a way of channelling the power of the gods to their servants to make them more effective in their service.     It is noticeable that when we are given the memory of the followers of Sylaise making a gift on her behalf for June, it requires the efforts of many elves working together to bring this about.   So may be the foci do exactly what their name suggests, they focus the magical power of many individuals into one concerted simultaneous effect.   

 

I wonder if this is why Solas is gathering so many modern elves together.    It was confirmed by Kieran that they still have magic in their blood, which is why Tevinter blood mages prefer using elven blood for their spells.     May be he is trying to find a way of either creating a new foci to replace the one that was lost, or having located another foci somewhere in Tevinter (where some of them ended up according to Dorian), he intends using his followers in some way to boost its power and concentrated force, may be not simply to drop the Veil but also to counter the freed Evanuris when he does.

 

As for how Flemeth/Mythal survives it is through shared life/splitting of the soul between two or more locations/objects/beings.   Morrigan understood the process but misunderstood the requirements.   Flemeth spoke the truth when she said the soul could not be forced on the unwilling.     So unless Morrigan agreed to it, the process would not work and would probably destroy them both.    When an archdemon attempts to jump to a Grey Warden in control of their mind, their soul resists and they are both destroyed.    When Corypheus made the jump, he was already controlling their mind, so there was no resistance and he could make the jump successfully.   I imagine the reason that Mythal was originally reduced to a wisp without a vessel was that whoever arranged her murder also ensured that her "twin soul"/other potential vessels had already been destroyed.   Since the Veil was not yet in place, her spirit was able to return easily to the Fade and sustain itself there until she could find someone willing to allow her possession of them.    The unimpeded passage was probably what allowed her to retain her identity/memory, unlike Solas friend, plus her followers still remembered and honoured her, aiding her survival, just as the Avaar do with their gods.

[rapscallioness]

Moist Towelettes.