254 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

True, I've always said that outside of the companions BioWare are generally terrible in the writing department. I always find it amusing because it's one of the main things they are lauded for.

It just stuck to them from an earlier time when video game plots were total **** if you weren't playing some form of an RPG-like game, unless that game was basically Dues Ex.

I think Bioware's best work is actually in JE, and that's a game they immediately dropped the ball on their moral system and then got their whole ending ass backwards.

[In Exile]

Huh, I always thought Loghain was so paranoid that he bought a story of Howe's about how the Couslands were in league with Orlais without checking to see if it was actually true. On the other hand, Loghain would probably have considered them suspecious if Arl Cousland happened to have sent a birthday card to someone he knew in Orlais.

Cause that makes sense, and Howe says exactly what Loghain believes. But no - we're supposed to believe that Howe acted alone and then Loghain decided to take a steaming dumb on the feudal order when he found out.

[10K]

Orsino was a joke, and cannot be taken seriously. I always skipped the conversation with him by mashing buttons on my 2nd playthrough onward.
 
At least Meredith had some villain qualities before the idol. I think she is the actual villain with Anders being the anti-hero, unless you play a very pro-mage Hawke. Since they are lines in the game that Hawke can choose to say that makes Anders pale in comparison, but they are just words.

Yeah I didn't understand why he so quickly resorted to blood magic at the very end. He seemed like he took his morals about blood magic seriously, but then threw them out the window.

[ShadyKat]

DA:I had way too much filler and just useless crap. Hopefully Andromeda avoids being like Inquisition all together.

[Iakus]

Orsino was a joke, and cannot be taken seriously. I always skipped the conversation with him by mashing buttons on my 2nd playthrough onward.

 

At least Meredith had some villain qualities before the idol. I think she is the actual villain with Anders being the anti-hero, unless you play a very pro-mage Hawke. Since they are lines in the game that Hawke can choose to say that makes Anders pale in comparison, but they are just words.

Anders and Meredith were the most interesting of "villains":  fallen heroes.

 

Both had pure motives and good intentions, but their own failings twisted things up (paranoia for Meredith, anger for Anders)

 

Add in some magical augmentation (the idol for Meredith, Justice for Anders) and you've got obsession, blood, and genocidal crusades.

[CronoDragoon]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 now, and I have to say it's probably going to supplant ME2 as my favorite BioWare game by the time I'm done. I knew the combat was better, but I didn't realize how much better until I started reading into Power Combos. One thing that is absolutely lacking in ME3, though, is DAI's dialogue wheel.

 

This is one of those things that makes me depressed about the state of gaming conversation, because one of the big things people complained about in ME3 was how limited the dialogue wheels were, but people are too busy complaining about other aspects of Inquisition to give props where it's due re: the dialogue wheel improvements. I didn't mind it when I played through the trilogy the first time, but now it's glaringly boring to actually role-play Shepard. Even DA2 takes a dump on the ME trilogy's dialogue wheel, and DAI is better than DA2's dialogue wheel in almost every respect. You know how everyone went apeshit when the Engineer prompt came up in the Omega DLC? How fondly Liara asking Shepard how he was feeling after Lair is remembered, because it helped build Shepard a character? That kind of thing happens all the time in DAI. Race options, class options, perk options, companion dialogue options, in addition to decision wheels that are always almost full, and an entire type of wheel dedicated purely to allowing the Inquisitor to express how they feel. Honestly, one reason why I feel romance is a big deal in the ME series and less so in DAI (for me) is because romance is one of the only real ways for Shepard to build himself as a character besides Paragon and Renegade. But DAI has such a laser focus on the issues it wants to tackle that you can really build a nuanced view towards its events and themes and develop the Inquisitor. Some might lament that you can't be evil anymore, but I prefer to celebrate that we now have 3 different ways of being good.

 

So yeah, DAI's dialogue wheel at minimum, Biower.

[KaiserShep]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 now, and I have to say it's probably going to supplant ME2 as my favorite BioWare game by the time I'm done. I knew the combat was better, but I didn't realize how much better until I started reading into Power Combos. One thing that is absolutely lacking in ME3, though, is DAI's dialogue wheel.

 

This is one of those things that makes me depressed about the state of gaming conversation, because one of the big things people complained about in ME3 was how limited the dialogue wheels were, but people are too busy complaining about other aspects of Inquisition to give props where it's due re: the dialogue wheel improvements. I didn't mind it when I played through the trilogy the first time, but now it's glaringly boring to actually role-play Shepard. Even DA2 takes a dump on the ME trilogy's dialogue wheel, and DAI is better than DA2's dialogue wheel in almost every respect. You know how everyone went apeshit when the Engineer prompt came up in the Omega DLC? How fondly Liara asking Shepard how he was feeling after Lair is remembered, because it helped build Shepard a character? That kind of thing happens all the time in DAI. Race options, class options, perk options, companion dialogue options, in addition to decision wheels that are always almost full, and an entire type of wheel dedicated purely to allowing the Inquisitor to express how they feel. Honestly, one reason why I feel romance is a big deal in the ME series and less so in DAI (for me) is because romance is one of the only real ways for Shepard to build himself as a character besides Paragon and Renegade. But DAI has such a laser focus on the issues it wants to tackle that you can really build a nuanced view towards its events and themes. Some might lament that you can't be evil anymore, but I prefer to celebrate that we now have 3 different ways of being good.

 

So yeah, DAI's dialogue wheel at minimum, Biower.

 

 

I'm in the same boat in finding ME3 to be my favorite of the 3. I've put in a lot more time in this game than the others, despite its various issues. However, after going through Origins, DA2 and DA:I for a while, and finally revisiting the ME trilogy now, it's clear to me just how stifling the latter can feel in comparison. It's come to the point where it can feel really hollow. The fact that DA tends to be so much more flexible in character building is what keeps me there longer, despite my preference for the scifi backdrop.  

[Pasquale1234]

^^ I agree that the DA series has been much better about supporting role-play than ME.

For my part, I also feel that the first entries in each series were the best of the lot, and I think the structure has something to do with it. DAO & ME1 were very similar in structure; you go through some opening scenarios until you become a Warden / Spectre, and are then assigned the 3-4 quests that comprise the main questline. At that point, you are free to pursue all of the games' content until you've completed those main questlines, at which point you're funneled back into another scenario that kicks off the ending sequences. That structure gave me a lot more agency wrt how, when, why I approach quests - and that in itself provides more of an open world feel, and a sense that I'm forging my own path through the game's content.

Also, I could converse with followers whenever I liked, and did not need to sit through a lot of loading screens to access them.

As much as I enjoy ME3's gameplay, I haven't been terribly keen to play it again. So much of the game is a series of cutscenes piled on cutscenes and autodialogue, it feels like watching a rerun of something you've already seen a bazillion times. It's like being a spectator while the character you're supposed to be playing goes off and does whatever.

I won't list my misgivings about Hawke, but will echo the sentiment that the Inquisitor feels like a return to form wrt role-playing. I've had a couple of instances where I felt the paraphrase did not accurately represent what the character would actually say, but for the most part, it's been spot-on.

[Han Shot First]

Huh? I haven't read any of the books, but...Howe made a power play to take back what he felt the Couslands had taken from his ancestors.Loghain left Cailan & Co. swinging at Ostagar because reasons. He wanted to preserve the rest of the armies instead of having them all slaughtered, he didn't believe it was a blight, he believed Cailan was conspiring w/ Empress Celine and would dump his darling daughter - take your pick.The 2 of them - Arl Howe & Loghain - did conspire to assassinate the Warden.Since they're fictional characters, I'm inclined to believe the authors about anything not explicitly demonstrated in the material.

Gaider's stance was that Loghain and Howe were not involved in a conspiracy against the crown and the Couslands, and that Howe's move against the Couslands just happened to coincidentally occur at around the same time Loghain commits regicide.

The problem is that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Howe can't move against the Couslands without the consent of the crown. That was never going to come from Cailan, as the Couslands were his most loyal and powerful vassals. Cailan also was a chivalrous sort who had slightly romanticized ideas of what it meant to be a king. There is no possible outcome of a coup against the Couslands where the king doesn't immediately strip Howe of land and title, declare him an outlaw, and dispatch other vassals and troops to seize Highever. Howe needs Cailan dead and someone sympathetic to him in control of the throne for his coup to have any chance of not ending with him dancing at the end of a rope.

Loghain also needs the Couslands dead. He can't have the king's most powerful and loyal vassals hanging around if he's going to betray and murder him. Teyrn Cousland left alive guarantees a civil war, and Redcliffe and Highever both moving against Loghain is going to put him at a disadvantage.

A conspiracy where both the murders of the Couslands and the king were pre-planned just makes much more sense than the alternative. Gaider also didn't seem to realize that the absence of a conspiracy turns two of the game's antagonists into a pair of impulsive nitwits who would have been immediately destroyed by their own stupidity and lack of planning, had it not been for the extraordinary luck of each man's betrayal coinciding with the other's, and conveniently eliminating the person the other most needed dead.

[Iakus]

Gaider's stance was that Loghain and Howe were not involved in a conspiracy against the crown and the Couslands, and that Howe's move against the Couslands just happened to coincidentally occur at around the same time Loghain commits regicide.
 

Wait, Gaider said that?  Because I have always assumed that Howe was a creature of Loghain's and he was sent to kill the Couslands just as he send Jowan to assassinate Arl Eamon.

[Stakrin]

DAI was pretty, I'll give it that. Sort of plastic still, but a huge improvement.

The war table was okay, I guess. Felt like a mobile app and I almost expected "or rush the adventure for $1.00!" As long as it sticks to codex entry or flavor text or some extra items I can get over it.

Power was awful. I hated my second play through doing some fetch quests or what not to rack up a power count because it was forced to pass through the story, it took away a lot of replayability for me.

The decisions didn't feel as important as DA:O or even DA:2, save a couple-until trespasser gave the real ending.

The real ending was clearly trespasser. I paid $15 to see the ending of the game, that was bothersome (if they use the excuse "inquisitor waited we wanted you to wait to make it feel real" then that's great and immersive, but if it's true it should have been free)

Power system sucked so badly it hurts.

Navigation was sloppy and difficult. The maps were trouble to get around and random mountains sucked; it got quiet a lot while walking around, so it wasn't much fun to explore.

Crafting feature was okay, not great-but I don't really have ideas how I'd improve it, so I can't complain.

[Pasquale1234]

<snip>

That's a great description of what might have been that, unfortunately, relies on some facts not in evidence.

I'm not 100% convinced that Loghain's goal was to see his King killed at Ostagar, particularly since he continued to try to convince Cailan not to ride with the Wardens up until the commencement of the battle. If Loghain had been plotting to make Howe the new Teryn of Highever, he certainly did a poor job of seeing to the demise of Fergus (and the PC).

But the bottom line for me is that this is not a discussion of some journalist's, historian's, or biographer's work regarding a real world situation involving real people. It's all fiction. You can argue that it wasn't well conceived or well written, but it's still fiction.
 

Wait, Gaider said that? Because I have always assumed that Howe was a creature of Loghain's and he was sent to kill the Couslands just as he send Jowan to assassinate Arl Eamon.

The intention was not to assassinate Eamon, but to get him out of the way for a time. That's the reason why the elf was posted in the Redcliffe Tavern to monitor the situation, and arrange for a cure should Eamon take a turn for the worse.

Gaider explains his views here: http://forum.bioware...-tir/?bioware=1

[vbibbi]

But the bottom line for me is that this is not a discussion of some journalist's, historian's, or biographer's work regarding a real world situation involving real people. It's all fiction. You can argue that it wasn't well conceived or well written, but it's still fiction.
 

 

Eh? It's fiction so it's exempt from analyzing the logic of its plot?

[Pasquale1234]

Eh? It's fiction so it's exempt from analyzing the logic of its plot?

Of course not.

This particular discussion started with this comment:

No, but it's no worse than DAO, where Howe just simply was evil and Loghain was supposed to be mind controlled. Do you know that Bioware to this day insists Loghain didn't conspire with Howe against the Cousland's? It's pure nonsense.

You can, of course, make up whatever story or headcanon you like.

And sometimes what we think we're seeing is not what the author intended to convey. Every work is subject to interpretation, and sometimes the final product is missing pertinent information.

But when an author is willing to put forth the time and effort to offer additional insight into what may or may not have been going on behind the scenes, I'm inclined to take him at his word. Any other interpretation not explicitly supported by the material is headcanon.

[Armass81]

Havent played any of the DA series so cant comment on there. There is still expectations on how they will handle the next game in ME saga.

 

If they can provide a game with a polished version of combat of ME3's and the feel and greatness of the story in ME1, you can call me satisfied.

 

However im skeptical on how they can pull the story without resulting into too much handwaving, retcons and inconsistancies, as we have seen in the previous games.

[In Exile]

Gaider's stance was that Loghain and Howe were not involved in a conspiracy against the crown and the Couslands, and that Howe's move against the Couslands just happened to coincidentally occur at around the same time Loghain commits regicide.

The problem is that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Howe can't move against the Couslands without the consent of the crown. That was never going to come from Cailan, as the Couslands were his most loyal and powerful vassals. Cailan also was a chivalrous sort who had slightly romanticized ideas of what it meant to be a king. There is no possible outcome of a coup against the Couslands where the king doesn't immediately strip Howe of land and title, declare him an outlaw, and dispatch other vassals and troops to seize Highever. Howe needs Cailan dead and someone sympathetic to him in control of the throne for his coup to have any chance of not ending with him dancing at the end of a rope.

Loghain also needs the Couslands dead. He can't have the king's most powerful and loyal vassals hanging around if he's going to betray and murder him. Teyrn Cousland left alive guarantees a civil war, and Redcliffe and Highever both moving against Loghain is going to put him at a disadvantage.

A conspiracy where both the murders of the Couslands and the king were pre-planned just makes much more sense than the alternative. Gaider also didn't seem to realize that the absence of a conspiracy turns two of the game's antagonists into a pair of impulsive nitwits who would have been immediately destroyed by their own stupidity and lack of planning, had it not been for the extraordinary luck of each man's betrayal coinciding with the other's, and conveniently eliminating the person the other most needed dead.

The other problem with the lack of a conspiracy is that both the before and after picture for Howe and Loghain make no sense. For Howe, the idea that his vassals would somehow agree to be executed for treason for no discernible gain whatsoever makes no sense even if Howe somehow decided to commit suicide by Cousland. For all anyone knew, the King had a massive army led by the greatest war hero in modern Ferelden to crush a large raid. All it would take to massacre Howe is for Cailan to saunter back home from his victory -he doesn't even need time to muster troops!

And the other way around, it makes Loghain look like a complete loon, twice. First, by declaring himself regent without any real authority when there's a living, adult heir is obviously usurpation. The stupid in that alone is beyond words. But to compound it by allying with an open traitor who by all accounts was committing suicide is just double stupid.

This is one of the very rare cases where WOG is so ridiculous we all just need to ignore it for the story to make sense.

Loghain is a usurper who planned to murder Cailan. That's the only way this story makes sense.

[Shadow Recon117]

 

However im skeptical on how they can pull the story without resulting into too much handwaving, retcons and inconsistancies, as we have seen in the previous games.

 

It's going to happen. I'm just hoping it's kept to a minimum.

[In Exile]

Of course not.

This particular discussion started with this comment:

You can, of course, make up whatever story or headcanon you like.

And sometimes what we think we're seeing is not what the author intended to convey. Every work is subject to interpretation, and sometimes the final product is missing pertinent information.

But when an author is willing to put forth the time and effort to offer additional insight into what may or may not have been going on behind the scenes, I'm inclined to take him at his word. Any other interpretation not explicitly supported by the material is headcanon.

The in-game material is gibberish. It includes Loghain having actual psychic powers at Ostagar.

Beyond that, the plot can't make sense as intended. Bioware wanted a grey antagonist. The thing is - I don't think Loghain is less understandable or notionally flawed or noble if he's not an insane idiot.

That he thought Cailan would destroy the country he sacrificed everything for by selling it our to Orlais is a motivation we can all accept. The fact that he males this decision before Ostager doesn't really change the calculus.

Anyway, you're using fact not in evidence incorrectly. All of the facts we need actually are in evidence - we're not adding anything to the story.

[Han Shot First]

The other problem with the lack of a conspiracy is that both the before and after picture for Howe and Loghain make no sense. For Howe, the idea that his vassals would somehow agree to be executed for treason for no discernible gain whatsoever makes no sense even if Howe somehow decided to commit suicide by Cousland. For all anyone knew, the King had a massive army led by the greatest war hero in modern Ferelden to crush a large raid. All it would take to massacre Howe is for Cailan to saunter back home from his victory -he doesn't even need time to muster troops!
And the other way around, it makes Loghain look like a complete loon, twice. First, by declaring himself regent without any real authority when there's a living, adult heir is obviously usurpation. The stupid in that alone is beyond words. But to compound it by allying with an open traitor who by all accounts was committing suicide is just double stupid.
This is one of the very rare cases where WOG is so ridiculous we all just need to ignore it for the story to make sense.
Loghain is a usurper who planned to murder Cailan. That's the only way this story makes sense.

It is impossible to know for sure what was going on behind the scenes in the writer's room, but the lack of a conspiracy to simultaneously eliminate the king, Teryn Cousland, and Arl Eamon, feels a lot like a rather clunky retcon introduced via Twitter. The game seemed to heavily imply a conspiracy in motion before Ostagar, and as you said...the story makes zero sense without it.

The sad part is that WOG doesn't even succeed in making Loghain more sympathetic. He goes from being a Machiavellian villain to a villainous buffoon that was saved only by a short run of incredibly good luck.

[The Elder King]

Anders and Meredith were the most interesting of "villains":  fallen heroes.

 

Both had pure motives and good intentions, but their own failings twisted things up (paranoia for Meredith, anger for Anders)

 

Add in some magical augmentation (the idol for Meredith, Justice for Anders) and you've got obsession, blood, and genocidal crusades.

I wouldn't say their motives are exactyl pure,  but they did have good intention.

It's not magical augmentation though. They're basically things that make them increase their paranoia, obsession and rage. And while I can understand Anders', Meredith's was put for both showing the red lyrium's effect (which we already did see, and which could've been shown in other parts) and to make her the final antagonist, which is...meh. She'd have called the Annulment regardless at that point of the story. There was no need to make her the final antagonist regardless of your path.

 

Wait, Gaider said that?  Because I have always assumed that Howe was a creature of Loghain's and he was sent to kill the Couslands just as he send Jowan to assassinate Arl Eamon.

Yep, he said that Loghain wasn't behind Howe's plan on the Couslands.

I do agree that it doesn't make exactly, since it comes off as Loghain was lucky after Ostagar to have one of the most powerful nobles in Ferelden, which would've been against him, dead, but on the other hand the game seems to show that he didn't take a final decision until later in Ostagar.

It doesn't matter much for me though. My canon Warden thought Loghain was behind it anyway, which didn't help with his rage and grief for his family's death.

[Xilizhra]

The other problem with the lack of a conspiracy is that both the before and after picture for Howe and Loghain make no sense. For Howe, the idea that his vassals would somehow agree to be executed for treason for no discernible gain whatsoever makes no sense even if Howe somehow decided to commit suicide by Cousland. For all anyone knew, the King had a massive army led by the greatest war hero in modern Ferelden to crush a large raid. All it would take to massacre Howe is for Cailan to saunter back home from his victory -he doesn't even need time to muster troops!

And the other way around, it makes Loghain look like a complete loon, twice. First, by declaring himself regent without any real authority when there's a living, adult heir is obviously usurpation. The stupid in that alone is beyond words. But to compound it by allying with an open traitor who by all accounts was committing suicide is just double stupid.

This is one of the very rare cases where WOG is so ridiculous we all just need to ignore it for the story to make sense.

Loghain is a usurper who planned to murder Cailan. That's the only way this story makes sense.

Actually, since Anora was only the queen consort, she wouldn't necessarily be an heir automatically, at least not until the Landsmeet confirmed it.

[DarthLaxian]

So I'm replaying Mass Effect 3 now, and I have to say it's probably going to supplant ME2 as my favorite BioWare game by the time I'm done. I knew the combat was better, but I didn't realize how much better until I started reading into Power Combos. One thing that is absolutely lacking in ME3, though, is DAI's dialogue wheel.

 

This is one of those things that makes me depressed about the state of gaming conversation, because one of the big things people complained about in ME3 was how limited the dialogue wheels were, but people are too busy complaining about other aspects of Inquisition to give props where it's due re: the dialogue wheel improvements. I didn't mind it when I played through the trilogy the first time, but now it's glaringly boring to actually role-play Shepard. Even DA2 takes a dump on the ME trilogy's dialogue wheel, and DAI is better than DA2's dialogue wheel in almost every respect. You know how everyone went apeshit when the Engineer prompt came up in the Omega DLC? How fondly Liara asking Shepard how he was feeling after Lair is remembered, because it helped build Shepard a character? That kind of thing happens all the time in DAI. Race options, class options, perk options, companion dialogue options, in addition to decision wheels that are always almost full, and an entire type of wheel dedicated purely to allowing the Inquisitor to express how they feel. Honestly, one reason why I feel romance is a big deal in the ME series and less so in DAI (for me) is because romance is one of the only real ways for Shepard to build himself as a character besides Paragon and Renegade. But DAI has such a laser focus on the issues it wants to tackle that you can really build a nuanced view towards its events and themes and develop the Inquisitor. Some might lament that you can't be evil anymore, but I prefer to celebrate that we now have 3 different ways of being good.

 

So yeah, DAI's dialogue wheel at minimum, Biower.

 

You can improve that damned wheel all you want, it will never beat out a silent protagonist and old style "list" dialogue system (with many many more options because it wasn't consolized!)

 

Also: Yeah, some more options (not only "be practical/ruthless or an ass" (renegade!) or "be nice/convincing/kiss ass" (paragon) - I mean I play mostly paragons, but I take renegade options I don't see as such, like tossing a guard out a window (otherwise you shoot the guy, so he's dead either way) and similar things, that IMHO any practical soldier would do!)

[vbibbi]

Of course not.This particular discussion started with this comment:You can, of course, make up whatever story or headcanon you like.And sometimes what we think we're seeing is not what the author intended to convey. Every work is subject to interpretation, and sometimes the final product is missing pertinent information.But when an author is willing to put forth the time and effort to offer additional insight into what may or may not have been going on behind the scenes, I'm inclined to take him at his word. Any other interpretation not explicitly supported by the material is headcanon.

I'm of two minds on this. I agree with your views on authorial intent and WOG being practically canon in providing information not included in the medium. BUT I also believe that any creative work becomes open to public analysis as soon as it's released. The author owns the rights to the work but doesn't own the ideas held within it. They relinquish that power when they make it public.

So I think the audience is within its right to question authorial intent if the intent presents logical fallacies. It is what made the argument that ME3 is art and therefor shouldn't be criticized dumb. Gaider and the writers are human. They may have wanted to present Loghain one way but by the time the game was finished, had written him in such a way that conflicts with their intent. And at that point, they couldn't go back and make changes.

[Laughing_Man]

I'm of two minds on this. I agree with your views on authorial intent and WOG being practically canon in providing information not included in the medium. BUT I also believe that any creative work becomes open to public analysis as soon as it's released. The author owns the rights to the work but doesn't own the ideas held within it. They relinquish that power when they make it public.

So I think the audience is within its right to question authorial intent if the intent presents logical fallacies. It is what made the argument that ME3 is art and therefor shouldn't be criticized dumb. Gaider and the writers are human. They may have wanted to present Loghain one way but by the time the game was finished, had written him in such a way that conflicts with their intent. And at that point, they couldn't go back and make changes.

 

I would go further and say that at this point it was dumb to come out with WOG on the subject at all.

 

It's a poor story if it needs to be explained (in a completely different direction) after the fact with WOG.

[Addictress]

WHAT is WOG