928 réponses à ce sujet

[jamskinner]

You seem to be really confused about what I'm saying. The point I'm repeatedly making is the exact point you just made. Characters can't actually make choices as the writers make all the choices for them. If you read this thread several people made the argument that the character's choose sexualized outfits as "maybe that's what the character wants to wear". This ignores the fact that characters don't actually want anything. It's all down to what the writers depict. Perhaps you should go find those people and whine to them about the ridiculous point they made and stop attributing it to me.

 

I was asked how writers could distinguish between a sexualized character and an empowered character and gave some thoughts on that subject. One of the points I made that might be confusing you, I don't know, is that if the writers want to depict an empowered character they have to actually write the character as empowered. Slapping a sexy outfit on a woman, especially in a professional setting, and labeling it as 'empowering' doesn't actually make it empowering. This gets to the idea of actual characterization that is empowering and not just silly fan service. You've taken my thoughts on this and twisted it into I think that characters have agency or can give consent. What I've actually said is that characters should be written with agency.

 

With all that said, I do object to writers choosing to create fans service sexualized characters and I'll continue to talk about the problems with it. 

 

I have to honestly say I do not even understand what people mean when they say someone is empowered.  Does it mean they chose to not listen to others and do whatever they want?  Are they people given authority in the story?  Is it where everyone is perfect and have exactly equal skills and abilities and everyone is "empowered".  Are they just characters who break our cultural norms?

 

As far as fan service, do you mean any type of fan service?  The ingame jokes about blasto are fanservice.   Do you object to them?  All the romances are fanservice.  Do you mean you don't want that included? 

[straykat]

Rule of fun trumps all. And imo, fun can also mean sexy at times. Go sexy , revealing armor!

 

Agreed...

 

I'm in the Frank Frazetta school of fantasy and sci-fi images.

[Seboist]

I don't understand why so many people can't stand sexy looking men and women, as well as clothes. Does everyone have to be average or below average looking to get your approval?

Being ugly and hiding your body doesn't make a deeper and interesting character.

Being attractive and wearing tight but modest attire, is how any proper woman should be.

[KBomb]

Why do chainmail bikinis always get brought up in discussing Bioware's costumes? Bioware has never went this route. Chainmail bikinis is such an overused example. 

[o Ventus]

 

I was asked how writers could distinguish between a sexualized character and an empowered character and gave some thoughts on that subject.

 

>Implying there's some kind of inherent difference or conflict between these two categories

 

With all that said, I do object to writers choosing to create fans service sexualized characters and I'll continue to talk about the problems with it.

 

"The problems"

 

Are they actually *problems*, or are you just calling them that to try and give your opinion some extra weight?

 

I've yet to hear an argument against "fanservice sexualized characters" that wasn't just "I don't like it, so it's objectively bad".

[straykat]

Why do chainmail bikinis always get brought up in discussing Bioware's costumes? Bioware has never went this route. Chainmail bikinis is such an overused example. 

 

True, but even what little skimpyness there is seems to be enough to annoy people.

 

Either that or they want a simulator. Which is just incredibly dorky to me. Like everyone needs an astronaut suit or it's not realistic enough.

 

They should go back to being the weird old guy who plays with train sets. I mean, it's kind of the same meticulous attention to detail.... and it makes games unfun.

[o Ventus]

True, but even what little skimpyness there is seems to be enough to annoy people.

 

Either that or they want a simulator. Which is just incredibly dorky to me. Like every needs an astronaut suit or it's not realistic enough.

 

They should go back to being the weird old guy who plays with train sets.

 

http://ashion.devian...armor-609142591

 

Flaring NSFW for language and actual chainmail bikinis.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I don't understand why so many people can't stand sexy looking men and women, as well as clothes. Does everyone have to be average or below average looking to get your approval?

Being ugly and hiding your body doesn't make a deeper and interesting character.

 

Wearing high heels in a warzone does make you a stupidly designed character, however.

 

If the series has any pretense at realism and believability, at least.

[maia0407]

I have to honestly say I do not even understand what people mean when they say someone is empowered.  Does it mean they chose to not listen to others and do whatever they want?  Are they people given authority in the story?  Is it where everyone is perfect and have exactly equal skills and abilities and everyone is "empowered".  Are they just characters who break our cultural norms?
 
As far as fan service, do you mean any type of fan service?  The ingame jokes about blasto are fanservice.   Do you object to them?  All the romances are fanservice.  Do you mean you don't want that included?

I shared this link earlier that explains sexual empowerment. Here it is: http://everydayfemin...vs-objectified/

As far as fan service goes, I'm talking about sexualizing women to please the presumed male audience. I'm not talking about harmless in jokes such as Blasto.

[straykat]

I suppose I don't even see this through the lens of gender-issues. I admit there's something to be said about it.

 

I just don't like turning games into simulators. Like I've been playing Skyrim lately... screw all those Needs/Eating/Sleeping mods. It's all the same thing to me really. Even if it's not apparent.

[Killroy]

I suppose I don't even see this through the lens of gender-issues. I admit there's something to be said about it.

 

I just don't like turning games into simulators. Like I've been playing Skyrim lately... screw all those Needs/Eating/Sleeping mods. It's all the same thing to me really. Even if it's not apparent.

 

This argument is incredibly flimsy. Wanting setting-appropriate attire does not in any way equate to wanting a simulator. 

[KBomb]

Wearing high heels in a warzone does make you a stupidly designed character, however.

 

If the series has any pretense at realism and believability, at least.

Meh, this honestly doesn't bother me too much. The boots that have a slight chunky boot heel, such as Miranda and Vasir, or the wedged boots, I don't consider high heeled. Those heels are about an inch--inch and a half, maybe two--which don't effect your body in ways (center of balance, etc) that a two and a half inch or high heel does. I have a pair of Breakwater hiking boots that have a heel height of about one inch and a quarter and I have no issue at all when hiking. There is a difference between a heeled shoe and a high heel shoe. As I said, either way I don't really care about the shoes. I just hate bulky armor of any kind. Tight fitting armor is my cup of tea.

[straykat]

This argument is incredibly flimsy. Wanting setting-appropriate attire does not in any way equate to wanting a simulator. 

 

It usually does.

 

In any case, I'm willfully arguing for style over substance.. It's viewed as a bad thing at this site, but it isn't to me.

 

The best design in general to me was ME2. And very little of it was setting appropriate.. but it was great looking. That one famous squad poster they had is the best image of Mass Effect ever. And the people who don't like it eschew the whole comic booky feel in general. They want strict sci-fi...something sterile... like out of 2001 or something. My only conclusion is that they like Simulators too.

[Puddi III]

I think it can be inferred that any character in-universe has agency over their attire, ie they "want" to wear what they're wearing, unless it's explicitly stated otherwise.

 

I fail to imagine what additional justification they would need to write for Emily Wong to wear an outfit that shows skin, aside from the inference, that wouldn't be seen as preachy.

 

Or maybe it's not justification that is wanted, but replacement of the outfit if the outfit would require an inference that strains credulity? But if we've reached the point of dissecting casual civilian attire, I would suggest that maybe it only strains credulity because of one's cynical assumptions about videogame industry artists due to their presumed gender. In other words, women draw women in sexy outfits too.

 

Would have a stronger argument here if the examples kept to actual armor as per the topic, and not said civilian attire.

[KBomb]

This argument is incredibly flimsy. Wanting setting-appropriate attire does not in any way equate to wanting a simulator. 

But you already have setting appropriate attire. Has anyone asked that heavy armors be done away with? (I skipped a couple of pages, could be possible). I thought the gist of it would be a mixture between the two. If you have a choice of heavier armors to choose from, and then some that are slim-lined, I don't see the issue. The first Mass Effect had three different styles between light, medium and heavy and it worked out great for each class. I want so badly to have those choices again.

[Killroy]

It usually does.

How can you possibly support that statement?
 

In any case, I'm willfully arguing for style over substance.. It's viewed as a bad thing at this site, but it isn't to me.

I can't respect your opinion.

[straykat]

Just to add, I'm always in favior of artists directing the design of games.. rather than functionality. Bad as that sounds. I'm just shallow, I guess.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean I want skimpyness though. Just cool art. It could be done with heavy armor sometimes too (like N7 Shep).

[straykat]

How can you possibly support that statement?
 

I can't respect your opinion.

 

That's OK. I don't respect people who have the opposite opinion either. I called them dorks above.

[Giantdeathrobot]

It usually does.

 

In any case, I'm willfully arguing for style over substance.. It's viewed as a bad thing at this site, but it isn't to me.

 

The best design in general to me was ME2. And very little of it was setting appropriate.. but it was great looking. That one famous squad poster they had is the best image of Mass Effect ever. And the people who don't like it eschew the whole comic booky feel in general. They want strict sci-fi...something sterile... like out of 2001 or something.

 

Or maybe they want something that is both stylish and makes sense. Which is definitely doable. I hate citing Halo as an example, but they have people going into battle with appropriate attire the vast majority of the time and still have some pretty good designs across the board. As far as fantasy goes, The Witcher usually has people going into battle in armors, or at least quilted cloth and leather, unless they are magic users, so does Dragon Age. I wouldn't want to see Cassandra or Alistair tank in wedding dresses. Humans in Warhammer go to battle in outlandishly fancy armor, but it's still freaking armor. And none of these games are even close to being simulations.

 

It's not a battle of style vs substance absolutes. One can have a middle ground where characters are interestingly designed, without being utterly nonsensical.

[SarenDidNothingWrong]

Being attractive and wearing tight but modest attire, is how any proper woman should be.

 

What a condescending comment. It's ironic, feminist/SJWs like you are trying to defend Women representation in video games by telling them how "they should be".

 

The irony is truly astonishing at times.

[Killroy]

But you already have setting appropriate attire. Has anyone asked that heavy armors be done away with? (I skipped a couple of pages, could be possible). I thought the gist of it would be a mixture between the two. If you have a choice of heavier armors to choose from, and then some that are slim-lined, I don't see the issue. The first Mass Effect had three different styles between light, medium and heavy and it worked out great for each class. I want so badly to have those choices again.

 

That would only be a valid argument if there weren't catsuits, boob straps and cameltoe. Some characters having appropriate attire doesn't mean the inappropriate attire suddenly makes sense. Garrus' armor doesn't protect Miranda.

[maia0407]

>Implying there's some kind of inherent difference or conflict between these two categories
 

 
"The problems"
 
Are they actually *problems*, or are you just calling them that to try and give your opinion some extra weight?
 
I've yet to hear an argument against "fanservice sexualized characters" that wasn't just "I don't like it, so it's objectively bad".

I'm going to guess that you haven't actually tried to find out why sexualization is a problem. If you had, you would find plenty of research that show that sexualization can lead to mental health issues, contribute to less egalitarian beliefs among genders, cause negative self image, contribute to rape culture, etc.

I'm a bit tired so here's a few links to articles just an easy search away explaining the problem with the preponderance of sexualized characters in media:

http://www.scientifi...le-superheroes/

http://www.apa.org/n...ualization.aspx

[straykat]

That would only be a valid argument if there weren't catsuits, boob straps and cameltoe. Some characters having appropriate attire doesn't mean the inappropriate attire suddenly makes sense. Garrus' armor doesn't protect Miranda.

 

Garrus is another where armor looks cool. Like it's second skin for Turians... I don't even like imagining them without those armor pieces.

 

Like I said, I'm really just in support of design. With Miranda, her look was equally cool to me. She reminded me of Frazetta's sci-fi girls, and their tight suits.. it fit her whole femme fatale thing. While with Jack, the lack of armor and tattoos made her look feral.

[SarenDidNothingWrong]

That would only be a valid argument if there weren't catsuits, boob straps and cameltoe. Some characters having appropriate attire doesn't mean the inappropriate attire suddenly makes sense. Garrus' armor doesn't protect Miranda.

 

The way the characters in ME1>ME3 dressed was dependant on their character.

 

Miranda's genetic alterations were made so that she would look the way she does, hence why she carries herself the way she does but outside of that, nothing is revealing about her armor, it's essentially a skin tight suit. Vega is a muscle bound dude bro and carries himself that way. Ashley is a reserved soldier and carries herself that way. Liara is also reserved and also carries herself that way. Jack is the truly only oversexualized character in her attire and that was purely for her character and it made her better. They reflected perfectly the change in her mind set in Mass Effect 3 when she started to dress more appropriately when she took on a position of responsibility.

 

If the fact that they have big boobs and asses truly offends you or (more likely if you're a woman) makes you feel insecure then maybe you need to get your priorities in check.

 

This new crowd of PC gamers (That seem almost synonymous with Bioware) is why the current Bioware is essentially seen as a joke.

[Killroy]

The way the characters in ME1>ME3 dressed was dependant on their character.

 

Miranda's genetic alterations were made so that she would look the way she does, hence why she carries herself the way she does but outside of that, nothing is revealing about her armor, it's essentially a skin tight suit. Vega is a muscle bound dude bro and carries himself that way. Ashley is a reserved soldier and carries herself that way. Liara is also reserved and also carries herself that way. Jack is the truly only oversexualized character in her attire and that was purely for her character and it made her better. They reflected perfectly the change in her mind set in Mass Effect 3 when she started to dress more appropriately when she took on a position of responsibility.

 

If the fact that they have big boobs and asses truly offends you or (more likely if you're a woman) makes you feel insecure then maybe you need to get your priorities in check.

 

This new crowd of PC gamers (That seem almost synonymous with Bioware) is why the current Bioware is essentially seen as a joke.

 

This is a troll post, even if you don't realize it.