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Practical versus Revealing Armor


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#751
Grieving Natashina

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Thanks. :) Sometimes you gotta take a break from the BSN. I will probably post more here the closer to the release date. Also, I was playing Saint's Row 3 all last week! Such a fun game.


Only downside is that my PS3 is dying. It's had a good 8 year run, but now I can no longer play during the summer day. I have to have a fan blowing directly on it, otherwise it sounds like a hair dryer since the internal fans are pretty old at this point. The Sasquatch and I are going to get it replaced, but it's gonna have to wait.

As far as the topic goes, give the player choices. For both armor and clothing. I like having things like uniforms to choose from. Or even a (gasp) catsuit as causal clothes for my own character on the ship.So long as it isn't beige.

Ahem. Sorry, a little bit of bland bitterness in my throat from DA:I's causal clothes for the PC.
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#752
Draining Dragon

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Only downside is that my PS3 is dying. It's had a good 8 year run, but now I can no longer play during the summer day. I have to have a fan blowing directly on it, otherwise it sounds like a hair dryer since the internal fans are pretty old at this point. The Sasquatch and I are going to get it replaced, but it's gonna have to wait.

As far as the topic goes, give the player choices. For both armor and clothing. I like having things like uniforms to choose from. Or even a (gasp) catsuit as causal clothes for my own character on the ship.So long as it isn't beige.

Ahem. Sorry, a little bit of bland bitterness in my throat from DA:I's causal clothes for the PC.


The pajamas that you were required to wear in DAI actually looked half decent on the female qunari, which is fortunate, because that was the only race/gender combo I did a full playthrough with.

But yes, the casual clothes were atrocious. I felt like a clown sitting on the throne and sentencing people to death while wearing my dull, tan-colored jammies. I hope that's an aspect of Inquisition that Bioware doesn't incorporate into the ME series.
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#753
KBomb

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Only downside is that my PS3 is dying. It's had a good 8 year run, but now I can no longer play during the summer day. I have to have a fan blowing directly on it, otherwise it sounds like a hair dryer since the internal fans are pretty old at this point. The Sasquatch and I are going to get it replaced, but it's gonna have to wait.

As far as the topic goes, give the player choices. For both armor and clothing. I like having things like uniforms to choose from. Or even a (gasp) catsuit as causal clothes for my own character on the ship.So long as it isn't beige.

Ahem. Sorry, a little bit of bland bitterness in my throat from DA:I's causal clothes for the PC.

I really dislike bulky armors. Absolutely loathe them, but I am glad they have the option for those who like that sort of thing. I would love to have something like Miranda's armor, I wouldn't mind if they added some bits and pieces to make it look more durable, but it would be nice to have that option .

I really liked her alternate armor, too. I also think it would be great to have hardsuits mimiced from their armor, that is a bit more appropriate for space. I just don't want to be forced to wear huge armor. Options are always nice.

Edit: Sorry about your PS3, eight years is a long run.
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#754
grumpymooselion

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I really dislike bulky armors. Absolutely loathe them, but I am glad they have the option for those who like that sort of thing. I would love to have something like Miranda's armor, I wouldn't mind if they added some bits and pieces to make it look more durable, but it would be nice to have that option .

I really liked her alternate armor, too. I also think it would be great to have hardsuits mimiced from their armor, that is a bit more appropriate for space. I just don't want to be forced to wear huge armor. Options are always nice.

Edit: Sorry about your PS3, eight years is a long run.

 

The thing is, this isn't even unfounded in the ME universe. Light armor was a thing in the first Mass Effect, a look you simply could not replicate in the second two games, as far as I'm concerned. It's something I rather missed, as I really liked the light armor look of my Adept in the first game. Being light didn't make it seem less like armor either, sure, you could go Miranda style and make it somewhat revealing - I don't care - but ME1 shows you can do the lighter not-medium and not-bulky armor type without it being out of place.

 

I'll never understand why they did away with light armor for the player beyond the first entry. The different armor weights made sense, and fitted different play styles thus different classes. It was nice you could customize your armor for looks and stats later on, but it really was from selections of medium and bulky pieces. Nothing that replicated the look of light armor from the first game. Sadly.

 

On a side note, I always preferred Miranda's alternate look too, out of the options given. There was also a DLC variation of her look that, for my money, was the most armor-like option, and it looked neat without being too bulky. Though, I have to admit I never really used Miranda much. I just liked that particular variation of her armor.



#755
KBomb

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The thing is, this isn't even unfounded in the ME universe. Light armor was a thing in the first Mass Effect, a look you simply could not replicate in the second two games, as far as I'm concerned. It's something I rather missed, as I really liked the light armor look of my Adept in the first game. Being light didn't make it seem less like armor either, sure, you could go Miranda style and make it somewhat revealing - I don't care - but ME1 shows you can do the lighter not-medium and not-bulky armor type without it being out of place.

I'll never understand why they did away with light armor for the player beyond the first entry. The different armor weights made sense, and fitted different play styles thus different classes. It was nice you could customize your armor for looks and stats later on, but it really was from selections of medium and bulky pieces. Nothing that replicated the look of light armor from the first game. Sadly.

On a side note, I always preferred Miranda's alternate look too, out of the options given. There was also a DLC variation of her look that, for my money, was the most armor-like option, and it looked neat without being too bulky. Though, I have to admit I never really used Miranda much. I just liked that particular variation of her armor.


If they could bring back the light and medium armor from the first Mass Effect, it would be amazing. I don't know why they changed it either, those armors were perfect for every class.

#756
Revan Reborn

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Although I agree with you, the ad hominems detract from this post.

While it may come across as a personal attack, it's really a sigh of frustration that this same thread keeps cropping up over and over again with the same pointless results. My post was not meant to somehow embarrass the OP, rather it was meant to bring to light the issue of excessively posting the same line of thinking over and over again. The point of the matter is BioWare does not make the kind of aesthetic she is asking for. I'm merely pointing out that creating this same narrative over and over again is not somehow going to change BioWare's perception of how it creates attires in the Mass Effect universe, or any other BioWare property.



#757
AlanC9

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Ahem. Sorry, a little bit of bland bitterness in my throat from DA:I's causal clothes for the PC.


Weren't those eventually patched into a decent selection?

#758
Grieving Natashina

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Weren't those eventually patched into a decent selection?


Don't know, to be honest. I haven't played DA:I since we adopted the puppy back in September. I'd been using mods prior to that.

#759
Seraphim24

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I really just don't even care at this point, these discussions evincing a total lack of confidence in the ideas one way or another make it so I'm less likely to enjoy it no matter what it is...



#760
KBomb

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Weren't those eventually patched into a decent selection?


They were. I found them quite tolerable after that. I still wish they would have made some race specific casual clothing.

#761
Rabinson

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I like ME3 female armor, but hate female walk....



#762
SKAR

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I like ME3 female armor, but hate female walk....

Cause it wasn't feminine? Hopefully they got female mocap actors for the girls and male for the guys.
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#763
PunchFaceReporter

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Recently looking back at the trailer, there's a scene with what I assume is the fem protagonist and her squadmates.


Wimr08S.jpg

NipD9T5.jpg

le8pf1a.jpg

W9pDR9F.jpg

jG9TNvy.jpg

The armour looks pretty feminine yet practical.
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#764
SKAR

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Recently looking back at the trailer, there's a scene with what I assume is the fem protagonist and her squadmates.


Wimr08S.jpg

NipD9T5.jpg

le8pf1a.jpg

W9pDR9F.jpg

jG9TNvy.jpg

The armour looks pretty feminine yet practical.

It looks good.

#765
maia0407

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>Implying there's some kind of inherent difference or conflict between these two categories



"The problems"

Are they actually *problems*, or are you just calling them that to try and give your opinion some extra weight?

I've yet to hear an argument against "fanservice sexualized characters" that wasn't just "I don't like it, so it's objectively bad".

Translation: "I have a point to make but can't or won't elaborate on it myself, so I'll just redirect you to some articles to do the legwork for me."

You keep on using these weasel words here too. "Plenty of research". What constitutes plenty? Who is doing the research? Are they feminist organizations or impartial scientific groups? The Scientific American article cites a study, but the study is behind a paywall, so that's not even a credible source. Looking up the people conducting the study gives me some interesting results. The women in charge of the study aren't even scientists or statisticians, they're Communications professors at some universities in California and are both noted feminists. Already, your sources are poor because they're tinted with bias and don't come from a credible source on top of not being able to be accessed. The article's summary of the study reeks of bad science too.

"To explore the effects of watching sexualized female victims and heroines, Pennell and Behm-Morawitz asked female college students to watch a 13-minute video montage of scenes that either featured female victims from the Spider-man series or female heroines from the X-Men series. After watching one of these video montages, participants completed a survey that assessed gender role beliefs, body image, and self-objectification. A number of other measures (e.g., movie-going habits, enjoyment of different film genres) were included to camouflage the purpose of the study, and in a control condition, participants simply completed the survey but did not watch either film montage. Gender role beliefs were assessed via the Attitudes toward Women Scale, which evaluated participants' views about men's and women's responsibilities at home and in the workplace, appropriate attire and appearance in public, rationality and problem solving skills, and physical strength. Body image was measured using the Body Esteem Scale, which requires individuals to rate personal satisfaction with general appearance and specific body parts (e.g., face, chest, thighs). Finally, the Self-Objectification Questionnaire required participants to indicate the importance of their body image and body competence to their personal identity. "

Right off the bat I notice errors in their method. The control group is not partaking in the same activities as either of the variable groups, so any baseline that the control would have given simply doesn't apply. Then they deliberately sabotage their survey results by introducing questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the experiment. I could forgive the control not setting a good baseline if the article at least mentions the comparison of the data sets between the control and the variables, but it doesn't, so at best I'm skeptical.

And then there's lines like this: "Because these sexualized superheroines have unattainable body dimensions and engage in unrealistic physical feats (e.g., saving the world in spiked heels), it’s not surprising that female viewers are left feeling dissatisfied with their own physical appearance and prowess." Unrealistic physical feats it says. Considering the study is about superheroes, one can also argue that flying and being able to shatter boulders with one's bare fists are also unrealistic physical feats. The article, and I'm guessing the study too considering who is conducting it, automatically insinuate that any feelings of inadequacy in regards top SUPERHEROES are due to sexualization and objectification, and not the amazing powers that the heroes have at their disposal, effectively making them into demigods. The study, from what little the article actually cites, has an aura of confirmation bias.

Honestly, I haven't looked at your second source and I have no intention to right now. If your first was this cartoonishly bad, then I don't see a point in wasting more time.

Also: lol @ the idea of a rape culture. Maybe if you live in the Middle East where rape is actually legal and even encouraged under Sharia law, then sure, except here in the West rape is not only illegal, but one of the worst offenses a person can commit. Rapists are arguably seen as worse than murderers.

I've quoted your initial post to me to give context to what I'm about to say. Your OP indicated willful ignorance about the difference between sexualization and empowerment. Those terms are well defined and you just proclaimed that your assumption that there is no difference as truth. That's red flag one as it shows you don't know accepted terminology. Red flag two was outright denial that sexualization is a problem as you haven't "seen any evidence". That's the old argument from incredulity which creationists are quite fond of using. That statement told me you haven't done your homework or that you are just willfully denying any evidence presented.

So, I point out that you can easily Google research and, despite knowing better, post links to respected sources and, predicatably, you try to deny that the research is credible. That's flat out science denial and I've seen this tactic used again and again. I just want to point out that it is not my job to educate you. You want to claim that sexualization isn't harmful, don't actually do your own research, and claim any scientific research done is biased and not credible.

You insinuate that feminists and communication professors doing research in their own field are, for some reason, not credible sources. Do you have the same standard for other researchers researching their own field, such as physics? Psychologists? Sociologists? Just curious how fairly you apply that odd standard.

There's also the issue of complaining about Scientific American as a source. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that you don't normally require access to scientific journals to evaluate everything in your life. Let's be real, most of us rely on reporting from respected news sources. Scientific American is one such source.

Most studies are locked behind a pay wall, unfortunately. But you are going to use that fact to actually question how much research has been done. Again, a quick search will get you pages of research with abstracts and articles reporting on it. Just that simple search is an indicator of the volume of research and who is doing it. Two of your questions answered. Articles on research and abstracts show research is being done and their conclusions. Evidence if you care to look.

Your entire response is by the book denialism. There's actually a term for the tactic you are using; it's known as hyper-skepticism and is a method to shrug off any evidence that doesn't conform to your preconceived ideas.

ETA: Just an FYI, not for you Ventus but others, the link he ignored is the American Psychological Task Force on the Sexualization of Girls; it is a heavily sourced report (so you have an idea of the amount of research, by whom and where to find it) about the prevalence and effects of sexualization of girls and what can be done. I'll link to it here again :

https://www.apa.org/...report-full.pdf

#766
KBomb

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Oh good grief lol

#767
Killroy

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Recently looking back at the trailer, there's a scene with what I assume is the fem protagonist and her squadmates.
The armour looks pretty feminine yet practical.

 

FemShep always followed different rules on armor starting with ME2. She requires actual armor for combat whereas many others seemed to just have a natural immunity to bullets once they donned latex. And that seems to be the case for SheRyder as well. She's got on armor but her female companion there just has overlapping layers of latex.



#768
KBomb

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With technology the way it is now with the discovery and applications like STF and Granphene, I can't really understand why people wouldn't think they'd have something stronger, lighter and better than what is possible today. This is the future with unbelievable human and alien tech and people are going to say it's impossible to have armor like Miranda's leather suit and it be efficient?
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#769
Killroy

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With technology the way it is now with the discovery and applications like STF and Granphene, I can't really understand why people wouldn't think they'd have something stronger, lighter and better than what is possible today. This is the future with unbelievable human and alien tech and people are going to say it's impossible to have armor like Miranda's leather suit and it be efficient?

 

That would only be a valid argument if weapons technologies weren't also advancing with time. 



#770
KBomb

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That would only be a valid argument if weapons technologies weren't also advancing with time.


Of course they are, as is armor tech. Just as it is now. STF can stop bullets, but like any armor, when bullets are made to penetrate it, so will armors be redesigned to to protect against new bullets. This is how it's always been. It's how we evolved in warfare. So, how is it not a valid argument?
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#771
kalikilic

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Heh, nice to see some things haven't changed 'round here.

For me, I'm of the opinion that the companions should wear whatever they want on the ship. I don't think that Miranda is overly sexualized due to her catsuit (nor the butt-cam, it just looks awkward) or Jack because of the boob straps. When I first saw Jack, my first thought wasn't "OMG! She's wearing so little she's sexualized!" My first thought was, "Wow. Okay, if she can dress like that in this setting, she's dangerous." If that's what they are comfortable in the ship, then that's awesome. I also think that those looks would be okay by me on certain planets (I.e Virmire before it got nuked.) Especially for biotics.
 

 

so a few pages back i posted this,
 
"either way i hate the labels of revealing/sexualised/practical. and i love the way outfits were done in me2. i loved jack's and miranda's outfits because they 100% suited the character and the personality.
 
and i think that's the way outfits should be done going forward."
 
which is somewhat similiar to your initial sentiments in that first paragraph.
 
yet i was made fun of. 
 
so yes, this place has not changed a bit.


#772
o Ventus

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I've quoted your initial post to me to give context to what I'm about to say. Your OP indicated willful ignorance about the difference between sexualization and empowerment. Those terms are well defined and you just proclaimed that your assumption that there is no difference as truth. That's red flag one as it shows you don't know accepted terminology. Red flag two was outright denial that sexualization is a problem as you haven't "seen any evidence". That's the old argument from incredulity which creationists are quite fond of using. That statement told me you haven't done your homework or that you are just willfully denying any evidence presented.

So, I point out that you can easily Google research and, despite knowing better, post links to respected sources and, predicatably, you try to deny that the research is credible. That's flat out science denial and I've seen this tactic used again and again. I just want to point out that it is not my job to educate you. You want to claim that sexualization isn't harmful, don't actually do your own research, and claim any scientific research done is biased and not credible.

You insinuate that feminists and communication professors doing research in their own field are, for some reason, not credible sources. Do you have the same standard for other researchers researching their own field, such as physics? Psychologists? Sociologists? Just curious how fairly you apply that odd standard.

There's also the issue of complaining about Scientific American as a source. I'm going to go out on a limb and bet that you don't normally require access to scientific journals to evaluate everything in your life. Let's be real, most of us rely on reporting from respected news sources. Scientific American is one such source.

Most studies are locked behind a pay wall, unfortunately. But you are going to use that fact to actually question how much research has been done. Again, a quick search will get you pages of research with abstracts and articles reporting on it. Just that simple search is an indicator of the volume of research and who is doing it. Two of your questions answered. Articles on research and abstracts show research is being done and their conclusions. Evidence if you care to look.

Your entire response is by the book denialism. There's actually a term for the tactic you are using; it's known as hyper-skepticism and is a method to shrug off any evidence that doesn't conform to your preconceived ideas.

ETA: Just an FYI, not for you Ventus but others, the link he ignored is the American Psychological Task Force on the Sexualization of Girls; it is a heavily sourced report (so you have an idea of the amount of research, by whom and where to find it) about the prevalence and effects of sexualization of girls and what can be done. I'll link to it here again :

https://www.apa.org/...report-full.pdf

 

It's not willful ignorance, I'm saying there's no inherent difference. Sexualization and empowerment are not conflicting concepts. A major part of the feminist movement in the 1960's and 70's was utilizing sexuality and sexualization AS a form of empowerment.

 

If there isn't any obvious evidence to support that something is a problem, then why would I think it to be a problem? LAWL @ trying to compare me to a creationist. Good one. Pokemon Go hasn't been working for me, so I needed something to brighten my mood, thanks for the laugh.

 

When your first response is "hurr Google it", then your point isn't worth making. If you're trying to convince someone of a point, then you should explain it to them. If you had even the slightest idea what you're talking about and aren't just regurgitating talking points, then it shouldn't be too hard.

 

Me saying that the research is bad is not "science denial". Try being less intellectually dishonest. I went out of my way to explain why the science was bad, and your only response is "lolol denial, DENIAL!" Feminists and Communications professors are hardly scientists, and it shows in the poor quality of the science they're trying to conduct.

 

I never questioned "how much" research has been done, I just think the people conducting the research are incompetent.

 

You're claiming that sexualization IS harmful, not doing your own research, and outright ignoring the points I've made about your sources, and passing off faulty "science" as a credible source. Even if one ignores the merit of both of our points, you're doing all of the same things you're accusing me of, not that I expect you to be self-aware.

 

My point about the researches being feminists was to show that they have a clear agenda going in to the research, but don't let that stop you from misrepresenting what I'm saying, you've only been trying to do it for the entirety of your reply so far.

 

Never once did I say that Scientific American wasn't a credible source. Try reading what I said again. Or reading it at all. And again you say "lel just search it", because you don't know how to debate someone.

 

You didn't answer any of my questions, you told me to Google it. See, I actually gave a response as to why the research wasn't credible. You're just saying "durp Google it" and "DENIAL!", as if repeating yourself 17 times is supposed to make your points stronger.

 

And finally, you're comparing the sexualization of girls, I.E. real children, to that of fictional (presumably adult) women. And off the rails we go...


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#773
Hanako Ikezawa

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FemShep always followed different rules on armor starting with ME2. She requires actual armor for combat whereas many others seemed to just have a natural immunity to bullets once they donned latex. And that seems to be the case for SheRyder as well. She's got on armor but her female companion there just has overlapping layers of latex.

At least this time the companion in question's armor and headgear seems to fully cover her from head to toe. 


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#774
Grieving Natashina

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so a few pages back i posted this,

"either way i hate the labels of revealing/sexualised/practical. and i love the way outfits were done in me2. i loved jack's and miranda's outfits because they 100% suited the character and the personality, and i think that's the way outfits should be done going forward."

which is somewhat similiar to your initial sentiments in that first paragraph.

yet i was made fun of.

so yes, this place has not changed a bit.

<shrug> This place rarely ever changes. The debates like this one were happening two years ago when DA:I was getting finished up. Same guano, different day. Not sure why you were mocked (I didn't read any of the responses that anyone made,) but for what it's worth, I can agree with that. I've gotten flamed/mocked in similar ways to with my own posts as well. It happens. I avoid making fun of posters, although I'm happy to make fun of a troll thread. No, I don't think this is a troll thread, at least not in content. The armor debate isn't a bad one to have. If nothing else, I enjoy reading the various opinions on this subject. :)

Edit: I wanted to mention another reason why I'm a fan of having a variety of armor and clothes. I'm currently playing Saints Row the 3rd, and I like having different looks. It reflects either my mood and/or the mood of my character using clothes and armor. Sometimes I feel girly and want to add heavy makeup, dress in a tube top and a pair of jeans on my SR character. Sometimes I feel like looking like an assassin and dress in a black battle vest (with shirt) and combat pants with no makeup. In the case of ME, some variety of clothes and armors would also add to my sense of RP.
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#775
KBomb

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so a few pages back i posted this,

"either way i hate the labels of revealing/sexualised/practical. and i love the way outfits were done in me2. i loved jack's and miranda's outfits because they 100% suited the character and the personality.

and i think that's the way outfits should be done going forward."

which is somewhat similiar to your initial sentiments in that first paragraph.

yet i was made fun of.

so yes, this place has not changed a bit.


Getting made fun of, being called a troll, and a hater comes hand in hand with posting on this forum. Even when you try to walk away from someone who refuses to see past their own views, you'll be mocked, sometimes. Happens a lot.

Ignore them and don't let it chase you away from a thread you enjoy discussing or debating in. Besides, you had a terrific point, as did Natashina. A point that should be read, even if it isn't appreciated by everyone.