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Thoughts on the Qun.


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#1
conor7879

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I think Bioware messed up with the Qun in Dragon age Inquisition. I think they changed the way the qun is to make qunari a more viable faction for later games, because as they were any pro qunari missions or characters would seem to espouse a society with essentially slavery and torture for mages and a rather misogynistic view towards women where they appear to have limited freedom. So any route where you side with the qunari would have to be the "evil choice".
 
I'm surprised I haven't seen more trans people and women aren't aren't offended by this. When bull gives his explanation it almost makes it sound like trans isn't an issue for qunari but if you look at it another way: any woman who wishes to fight and remain in the qun is forced to be a man, because women don't fight.
 So if you're a soldier you're a man, regardless of if aren't one biologically, don't feel like a man or don't want to be one. So what about male to female trans soldier who enjoy their line of work as members of the antaam yet cannot be accepted as a women due to the fact that women don't fight? 
They already classify people not by name but role/rank/profession so why would gender matter in that case?  why have the gender of someone tied to the role they perform? I'd get it if their job was something that required you to be a certain gender biologically for you to preform your task ie; getting pregnant, but what necessitates all soldiers being men? And if anyone who fights is male is true, is the inverse? if you were male and wanted to be a baker instead of a soldier would they say "okay, now you're a girl as well, regardless of if you want to be or feel like one"? 

And what terms do qunari use for male or female when talking about biological function?
 

For a people so literal and a religion so dogmatic and regimented I have a hard time accepting their view of  calling a female not a female merely because she fights as logical. due to the straight forward nature and clear cutness of right/wrong in the qun it seems needlessly complicated and badly written. 
 

Thoughts?

 



#2
Gervaise

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I think you have to accept that what we were told by Sten has been altered subsequently.   The one thing that he was most puzzled by was people wanting to be something they weren't.   He was very confused by the presence of my female Warden who could both fight and lead an army.   It seemed pretty clear cut.   To my mind the response of the DAO Qun to someone saying that I was biologically born a woman but I'm really a man, would be to send them for a spot of "re-education".

 

DA2 confirmed their view of mages that was outlined by Sten.   The qunari mage preferred to self-immolate than live outside the Qun and the soldiers we encountered insisted he must die (along with our mages) because of the fact that he had been running around outside the control of the Qun and they could no longer guarantee he was in full control of "self".    Mages raised outside the Qun when captured are immediately filled with qamek to neutralise their minds.   They do this because they waste nothing, so are loath to simply kill the mage.   This is worse than even tranquillity because it totally destroys their mind and free will, turning them into mindless drudges.   Nor is this just the fate of mages, as Fenris makes clear to Isabella when suggesting the degree of gratitude she should feel for Hawke not handing her over to the Arishok.

 

The attitude to mages was played down in DAI and mostly referred to in banters between Iron Bull and Dorian that ignored the seriousness of the issues.   It was never brought out what Bull's precious Qun would have done to Dorian should he have been captured by them.    It should also be noted that whilst a Tal-Vashoth Bull does not betray you in Trespasser, he never actually categorically rejects the Qun as social system, he is simply outcast by them.      If you take the trouble to read the codices about the Ben-Hassrath, then you do get more of a sense of how sinister they are but this is not revealed categorically by characters in game.   Acknowledging the true downside of the Qun is further undermined because the one character who consistently does this, Solas, is subsequently revealed to have plans of his own that involve mass genocide.   

 

In multiplayer there is apparently a saarabas that has been sent by the Qun to serve in the battle against Corypheus, without an accompanying Arvaarad.   In terms of all the lore that previously been stated, and the attitude of the Qun in DA2, the presence of this saarabas is clearly ridiculous.   The Qun would never do this.    It would clearly seem the response to fanbase requests to play a saarabas rather than remain consistent to the lore of the Qun.

 

There does seem to be a degree of evening out the balance between the Qun and Tevinter as the bad guy, that would allow a player to feel comfortable with opting for an alliance with the Qun in DAI and either side in future games.      The treatment of transgender people is one such example of this.    The Qun are apparently quite okay with allowing them this choice; whereas Tevinter are prejudiced against them and it is considered against society values.     However, I think you are quite correct in pointing out that the Qun's attitude is not as accepting as it first appears.


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#3
Ghost Gal

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I think Bioware messed up with the Qun in Dragon age Inquisition. I think they changed the way the qun is to make qunari a more viable faction for later games, because as they were any pro qunari missions or characters would seem to espouse a society with essentially slavery and torture for mages and a rather misogynistic view towards women where they appear to have limited freedom. 

 

I roll my eyes every time I see something like this.

 

The Qunari would only be misogynistic if they showed contempt for women that they don't hold for men, or gave women less freedom and opportunities than they gave men, but that's not the case. This is the Qun: EVERYONE has limited freedom. Also, it's true that they have strict gender roles, but they're equally restrictive to both men and women, and the men's roles aren't seen as superior to the women's roles.

 

Some party banter between Sten and Zevran points this out.

 


  • Sten: I knew one of your countrymen once, elf.
  • Zevran: Oh? Have you been to Antiva, then?
  • Sten: No. Until I came to Ferelden, I had never left the islands. She came to Seheron twice a year with the traders who bought spices from the northern jungle. Only she among the traders would speak to the antaam. Questions about the rainforest, its depths, and the things to be seen there. We humored her. She was... an unfortunate soul.
  • Zevran: Unfortunate in what way?
  • Sten: She was a Crow, as you were. Sent to assassinate the kithshoks, leaders of the army of Seheron, for the Tevinter Imperium. We knew this, and pitied her.
  • Zevran: I'm surprised you did not simply slay her.
  • Sten: There was no need. Her questions were meant to show her the way through the jungle towards our fortifications. And so one day, she snuck into the jungle to find her target. We found the pieces of her body in a tree, where the spotted cats kept them for later. We had never told her that our kithshoks were the ones who negotiated all the trades at the port.
  • Zevran: Then she was a fool. That's not very sympathetic, I'm afraid.
  • Sten: It was her ignorance we pitied, not her mistake. She believe we hoarded things we cared for as her own people do. We were sorry for her, that she thought only some people were important.

 

If the Qunari was a society that believed that fighting and hard labor was superior to delegating, craftsmen, shopkeeping, educating and raising the young, assigning jobs to everyone under the Qun, (as the women do), etc. and they denied their women "better" "more freeing" jobs out of a belief in their inferiority or unworthiness, I'd call it misogynistic. But they don't think men better than women, or men's jobs better than women's jobs. The Qunari seem to believe that men are physically stronger and thus better suited to physical jobs (military, laborer, farmer, etc) while women are smarter and better suited to artistry and craftsmanship, shopkeeping and controlling their society's economics, the education of and assigning jobs to everyone in the Qun, breeding and record-keeping, etc.

 

In fact, according to the wiki many people who live close by to the Qunari assume they're matriarchal because Qunari women tend to have most of the de facto "leadership" positions, from shopkeepers delegating trade with outsiders, to creating and distributing goods around for their people, to the female-only parts of the priesthood who arrange family-planning, child-rearing, educating the population on the commands of the Qun (essentially thought police), assigning jobs for everyone, etc. When you think about it, most of the de facto economic and leadership power goes to women since they decide how their society is run and how they're going to distribute the means and resources to get it done, with the muscled male population (the Arishok and Antaam) goes off to do what they say. 

 

And that brings me back to our own problems in our own society. We pay lip service to the idea that men and women are equal, but I've noticed that traditionally considered "masculine" traits and professions are seen as superior, while "feminine" traits and professions are seen as inferior. A woman who dresses like a man, fights like a man, takes the same job as a man (a knight verses a lady) is seen as empowering, while a woman who dresses like a woman and has a "womanly" job (cooking, cleaning, sewing, etc) is seen as demeaning. So a society that tells women they can't have the same job as the man MUST be telling her she's lesser than a man, right? Even if that society makes it clear they don't see men or women as better than the other, any job as more important than another, or people of one gender getting more freedoms than another. 



#4
Qun00

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It is rather typical of your movement to turn a gender neutral problem into a gendered one.

Do you believe male Qunari enjoy greater freedom? Can they aspire to become the Arigena? Are they allowed to be tamassrans which have great influence in the Qun or any other administrative roles?

This is a society where nobody can be anything they want.

I roll my eyes every time I see something like this.

The Qunari would only be misogynistic if they showed contempt for women that they don't hold for men, or gave women less freedom and opportunities than they gave men, but that's not the case. This is the Qun: EVERYONE has limited freedom. Also, it's true that they have strict gender roles, but they're equally restrictive to both men and women, and the men's roles aren't seen as superior to the women's roles.

Some party banter between Sten and Zevran points this out.


If the Qunari was a society that believed that fighting and hard labor was superior to delegating, craftsmen, shopkeeping, educating and raising the young, assigning jobs to everyone under the Qun, (as the women do), etc. and they denied their women "better" "more freeing" jobs out of a belief in their inferiority or unworthiness, I'd call it misogynistic. But they don't think men better than women, or men's jobs better than women's jobs. The Qunari seem to believe that men are physically stronger and thus better suited to physical jobs (military, laborer, farmer, etc) while women are smarter and better suited to artistry and craftsmanship, shopkeeping and controlling their society's economics, the education of and assigning jobs to everyone in the Qun, breeding and record-keeping, etc.

In fact, according to the wiki many people who live close by to the Qunari assume they're matriarchal because Qunari women tend to have most of the de facto "leadership" positions, from shopkeepers delegating trade with outsiders, to creating and distributing goods around for their people, to the female-only parts of the priesthood who arrange family-planning, child-rearing, educating the population on the commands of the Qun (essentially thought police), assigning jobs for everyone, etc. When you think about it, most of the de facto economic and leadership power goes to women since they decide how their society is run and how they're going to distribute the means and resources to get it done, with the muscled male population (the Arishok and Antaam) goes off to do what they say.

And that brings me back to our own problems in our own society. We pay lip service to the idea that men and women are equal, but I've noticed that traditionally considered "masculine" traits and professions are seen as superior, while "feminine" traits and professions are seen as inferior. A woman who dresses like a man, fights like a man, takes the same job as a man (a knight verses a lady) is seen as empowering, while a woman who dresses like a woman and has a "womanly" job (cooking, cleaning, sewing, etc) is seen as demeaning. So a society that tells women they can't have the same job as the man MUST be telling her she's lesser than a man, right? Even if that society makes it clear they don't see men or women as better than the other, any job as more important than another, or people of one gender getting more freedoms than another.


Generally speaking, the Qunari aren't people that believe in "better" or "worse" roles.

Maybe your job is to sweep floors, but if you do it dutifully and effectively, you will be treated with respect by everyone under the Qun.
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#5
vertigomez

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I think the Qun was never as simple as people wanted to think it was, and now that we're finally exploring those nuances everyone's crying "retcon!" Really, Sten said it best:

Warden: Tell me about your people.
Sten: No.
Warden: Please?
Sten: People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: "The elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."
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#6
Catilina

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This not a badly written philisopy (religion?), this is a society, based on a wrong philosophy.



#7
Xilizhra

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I think the Qun was never as simple as people wanted to think it was, and now that we're finally exploring those nuances everyone's crying "retcon!" Really, Sten said it best:

Warden: Tell me about your people.
Sten: No.
Warden: Please?
Sten: People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: "The elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."

Eh, it's not really that complicated. The Qun is a philosophy that cares nothing about anyone except for their utility to the state; any and all specific components exist to expand that utility (or are just idiotic superstition, like the "this tool is your soul" business).


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#8
Qun00

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Eh, it's not really that complicated. The Qun is a philosophy that cares nothing about anyone except for their utility to the state; any and all specific components exist to expand that utility (or are just idiotic superstition, like the "this tool is your soul" business).


Mmm... maybe not quite that heartless. The Qunari did avenge the death of the Viscount's son. His corpse had no further use but they still killed Sister Petrice in honor of their fallen brother.

And Sten's Fade dream seemed to show that he deeply missed the soldiers that travelled with him.
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#9
vertigomez

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Eh, it's not really that complicated. The Qun is a philosophy that cares nothing about anyone except for their utility to the state; any and all specific components exist to expand that utility


...for the good of people as a whole.

Most "evil" people believe that what they do is right or at least necessary, including the Qunari, Solas, Loghain, Meredith, and Anders.

#10
Catilina

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...for the good of people as a whole.

Most "evil" people believe that what they do is right or at least necessary, including the Qunari, Solas, Loghain, Meredith, and Anders.

(Loghain and Meredith are slightly different from Solas and Anders [especially from Anders].

Loghain and Meredith was powerthirsty.)



#11
vertigomez

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(Loghain and Meredith are slightly different from Solas and Anders [especially from Anders].
Loghain and Meredith was powerthirsty.)


Nyyeehhh we'll have to agree to disagree.
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#12
Xilizhra

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...for the good of people as a whole.

Most "evil" people believe that what they do is right or at least necessary, including the Qunari, Solas, Loghain, Meredith, and Anders.

I'm fairly sure that the Qun would demand that every single qunari die before the Qun itself is renounced.



#13
Xilizhra

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Mmm... maybe not quite that heartless. The Qunari did avenge the death of the Viscount's son. His corpse had no further use but they still killed Sister Petrice in honor of their fallen brother.

And Sten's Fade dream seemed to show that he deeply missed the soldiers that travelled with him.

The Qun demands that the qunari take revenge for dead viddathari, presumably as a means of deterrence. And individual qunari and their emotions are not the Qun.



#14
Catilina

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Nyyeehhh we'll have to agree to disagree.

"Most "evil" people believe that what they do is right or at least necessary,"

However I totally agree with this... :)



#15
Lazarillo

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As far as the gender issues go, I think it's also important to note that, per Fenris "the Quanri waste nothing". Krem (or the Warden PC, potentially, or Cassandra, or anyone else) is a talented warrior. When they "inevitably" conquer the south, would the Qunari waste that sort of lifetime of experience and talent, simply to reeducate him into a biologically appropriate role that he might not have as much aptitude for? It seems like the "Aqun-Athlok" designation exists especially for cases like that. But on the other hand, since there's no such thing as sexual interaction in Qunari society (outside of the Tamassrans whose role is apparently to get people off), biological gender serves no purpose within Qunari society except for the assignment of role. Thus, rather than "male" or "female" being pointlessly arbitrary designations, it's most likely that for people who are born Qunari they are simply never allowed to move towards roles that wouldn't fit their biological gender in the first place.

As for Qunari society as a whole, it's still hard to say. Sten and Arishok are both soldiers obviously have only one perspective on the society as a whole. Iron Bull has a different one, but he's also a guy whose role involves lying. Even if he didn't do it intentionally, as part of his role in the Ben-Hassrath, he's going to be trained to paint the Qun in a...marketable light.

#16
Daerog

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Sten said it best:Warden: Tell me about your people.Sten: No.Warden: Please?Sten: People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: "The elves are a lithe, pointy-eared people who excel at poverty."


Hahaha! I loved that; had to pause the game when I first heard it.

However, it seems a fair amount of people are only seeing the Qunari from an individualistic point of view, rather than a society focused utilitarian view as the Qunari view things.

Individual doesn't matter, the role they fulfill is what matters. So, the Qun will assign gender, because it is completely totalitarian.

By being totalitarian and not viewing one role superior than another, the Qun seeks to create a harmonious society.

Everyone is assigned a role, no one is left out, and those who fulfill their role are respected no matter what the role is. It's like loving an arm that is strong or eyes that see well.

It sounds ideal in the sense of no poor, no homeless, no greedy corruption of the upper class. Do they even have money or private property?

Most qunari just live out their lives like most people. Work, hang out with friends, eat, sleep, and so on. Being a part of a technologically advanced and vast empire probably makes life easier compared to regular thedosian life as well.
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#17
Catilina

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The Qun is not logical, just seems logical (somewhat). Not practical, only seems practical (somewhat). I do not think that would be a man who wants to live in such world. It does not work, can not work. But would be really interest to see close up: how the writers imagined this world in the everyday, and in some crisis (for example in a Tal-Vashoth-rebellion?).

 

It's not gender-problem, it's complete qun problem. The gender-problem only one of many.



#18
Qun00

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The Qun is not logical, just seems logical (somewhat). Not practical, only seems practical (somewhat). I do not think that would be a man who wants to live in such world. It does not work, can not work. But would be really interest to see close up: how the writers imagined this world in the everyday, and in some crisis (for example in a Tal-Vashoth-rebellion?).


Rebellion? The Tal-Vashoth aren't interested in changing Par Vollen. They just want out.
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#19
Catilina

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Rebellion? The Tal-Vashoth aren't interested in changing Par Vollen. They just want out.

True. Sadly. The qun are bullshit. An interest bullsit.


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#20
General TSAR

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The Qun has been butchered to death by BioWare by adding idiots like Talis. 

 

IB was okayish as a Qunari spy.



#21
Lazarillo

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Rebellion? The Tal-Vashoth aren't interested in changing Par Vollen. They just want out.

The Tal-Vashoth are just weird. They don't really seem to be interested in anything other than "fighting the Qun". They don't have any goals, they don't seek to accomplish anything by doing so. They're just enemies. It's like Bran said in DA2, "it seems like even their rebels conform". Although that's not too surprising considering they know only a life of indoctrination I suppose.

#22
DuskWanderer

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Qunari aren't misogynistic. That implies that they hate women because they are women. They treat women like they treat men: Both are subjected and given no choice in role.

 

As for the qunari themselves, I think the devs wrote them intending for them to be seen as good guys. A perfectly ordered society that might have some hiccups, but so much better than the chaotic south. Look at the Arishok in DA2, he was treated as the only sane person around, when the truth is, he was a gigantic jerk (and that's just being nice), violent, sadistic, and worse. But there were achievements for getting the Arishok's respect, everyone kept talking about how ordered the qun was, and the only argument against it was violent "They arez da HEATHENS!" nonsense. 

 

But they are bad. Worse than Tevinter. There is nothing to save in the Qun



#23
Daerog

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The Qun is not logical, just seems logical (somewhat). Not practical, only seems practical (somewhat). I do not think that would be a man who wants to live in such world. It does not work, can not work. But would be really interest to see close up: how the writers imagined this world in the everyday, and in some crisis (for example in a Tal-Vashoth-rebellion?).
 
It's not gender-problem, it's complete qun problem. The gender-problem only one of many.


How is it illogical? It starts with a premise and follows with a conclusion that is the logical outcome.

It is practical. It is the most powerful, most advanced, and largest nation in Thedas. Every citizen is housed, clothed, fed, and works.

Anyone who is missing and unable to fulfill a basic need would see the Qunari as very tempting.

#24
Sifr

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The Tal-Vashoth are just weird. They don't really seem to be interested in anything other than "fighting the Qun". They don't have any goals, they don't seek to accomplish anything by doing so. They're just enemies. It's like Bran said in DA2, "it seems like even their rebels conform". Although that's not too surprising considering they know only a life of indoctrination I suppose.

 

Personally, I've always suspected the Tal-Vashoth were created by the Qunari as another means of control.

 

Realising that not everyone would easily accept the Qun and that some might want to leave, the Qunari intentionally sought to create a boogeyman as a deterrent to keep their people in line. To that end, they used fear and indoctrination to teach that leaving the Qun would turn them into savages with no self-control.

 

Perhaps the reason that some who become Tal-Vashoth end up acting out in that manner, is because that's what they believe they must do, which thereby reinforces and seemingly confirmes Qunari propaganda? It would explain why Sten violently snapped when he lost his sword, knowing he'd be declared Tal-Vashoth if he tried to return home without it.

 

Obviously not all those who leave the Qun or live outside it are violent murderers, as the Vashoth demonstrate. Many of the stories of Tal-Vashoth being violent are probably exaggerated or outright false, but spread by the Qunari because as long as people believe them, it serves as an effective tool to curb societal dissent.


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#25
Catilina

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How is it illogical? It starts with a premise and follows with a conclusion that is the logical outcome.

It is practical. It is the most powerful, most advanced, and largest nation in Thedas. Every citizen is housed, clothed, fed, and works.

Anyone who is missing and unable to fulfill a basic need would see the Qunari as very tempting.

The qun Works. As the communism. And same fair and logical. The qun based on completelly false logic.