53 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

Personally, I've always suspected the Tal-Vashoth were created by the Qunari as another means of control.

Realising that not everyone would easily accept the Qun and that some might want to leave, the Qunari intentionally sought to create a boogeyman as a deterrent to keep their people in line. To that end, they used fear and indoctrination to teach that leaving the Qun would turn them into savages with no self-control.

Perhaps the reason that some who become Tal-Vashoth end up acting out in that manner, is because that's what they believe they must do, which thereby reinforces and seemingly confirmes Qunari propaganda? It would explain why Sten violently snapped when he lost his sword, knowing he'd be declared Tal-Vashoth if he tried to return home without it.

Obviously not all those who leave the Qun or live outside it are violent murderers, as the Vashoth demonstrate. Many of the stories of Tal-Vashoth being violent are probably exaggerated or outright false, but spread by the Qunari because as long as people believe them, it serves as an effective tool to curb societal dissent.

possibly and possible every nation exaggertes their flawed citizens

[Daerog]

The qun Works. As the communism. And same fair and logical. The qun based on completelly false logic.

I understand that it is wrong and disagreeable, but you are not pointing out where the illogical part is.

Something can be logical but immoral or disliked.

Communism is a system that can work with small communities and is logical, but has failed on a practical level with large nations involved with a global market. The Qun has not failed on a practical level.

[Xilizhra]

How is it illogical? It starts with a premise and follows with a conclusion that is the logical outcome.

It is practical. It is the most powerful, most advanced, and largest nation in Thedas. Every citizen is housed, clothed, fed, and works.

Anyone who is missing and unable to fulfill a basic need would see the Qunari as very tempting.

The largest? How? It appears to cover two islands and some of Rivain. And keep in mind that a good chunk of their population is chemically lobotomized, and another one is trapped in magical chains with their mouths sealed shut; "housed, clothed, fed and works" applies to slavery too.

[In Exile]

The Qun was not revised in DAI. The IB is just a better salesperson. I'm genuinely surprised how easily people were taken in by his whitewashing, when he basically all but tells you he thinks the Qun is awful and is terrified of it expanding to the rest of Thedas.

A great example is the talk with Krem. The IB brings up a Qunari concept about gender because he wants to shield Krem. When Krem gets all doe-eyed at the idea of acceptance and asks the IB about it, the IB dodges the question faster than you can say "the Qun force assigns gender based on utility without any regard to individual gender identity".

You see this type of dodge every time the IB talks about the Qun or equivocates. The whole point of the IB is that he's trying to convince himself that the Qun is a worthwhile system even as his faith in it was totally shattered.

Eh, it's not really that complicated. The Qun is a philosophy that cares nothing about anyone except for their utility to the state; any and all specific components exist to expand that utility (or are just idiotic superstition, like the "this tool is your soul" business).

I don't think this is right. It's not about the state. It's a very different idea of community, but it's not about an institution. Let me put it this way: an ideology that privileges the state over the individuals effectively privileges an institution. The Qunari don't value their institutions - they don't even think of then as institutions but as self-evident facts of natural reality (the Qun is the nation "that must be", remember).

They view everyone as part of a holistic community. It's not about utility in that conception - it's about a natural order. Let me put it this way: we don't say that cells in our body are used as components to expand utility. We just think of them as naturally being the thing that they are - white blood cells or brain cells, etc.

Of course this philosophy has to be confronted with reality and the fact that no such natural order exists, individuals aren't designed by nature to perform only one task allocated to them by the natural laws of reality.

But the Qunari believe this nonsense. And they believe it because they only use insane troll logic.

[In Exile]

The Qun was not revised in DAI. The IB is just a better salesperson. I'm genuinely surprised how easily people were taken in by his whitewashing, when he basically all but tells you he thinks the Qun is awful and is terrified of it expanding to the rest of Thedas.

A great example is the talk with Krem. The IB brings up a Qunari concept about gender because he wants to shield Krem. When Krem gets all doe-eyed at the idea of acceptance and asks the IB about it, the IB dodges the question faster than you can say "the Qun force assigns gender based on utility without any regard to individual gender identity".

You see this type of dodge every time the IB talks about the Qun or equivocates. The whole point of the IB is that he's trying to convince himself that the Qun is a worthwhile system even as his faith in it was totally shattered.

Eh, it's not really that complicated. The Qun is a philosophy that cares nothing about anyone except for their utility to the state; any and all specific components exist to expand that utility (or are just idiotic superstition, like the "this tool is your soul" business).

I don't think this is right. It's not about the state. It's a very different idea of community, but it's not about an institution. Let me put it this way: an ideology that privileges the state over the individuals effectively privileges an institution. The Qunari don't value their institutions - they don't even think of then as institutions but as self-evident facts of natural reality (the Qun is the nation "that must be", remember).

They view everyone as part of a holistic community. It's not about utility in that conception - it's about a natural order. Let me put it this way: we don't say that cells in our body are used as components to expand utility. We just think of them as naturally being the thing that they are - white blood cells or brain cells, etc.

Of course this philosophy has to be confronted with reality and the fact that no such natural order exists, individuals aren't designed by nature to perform only one task allocated to them by the natural laws of reality.

But the Qunari believe this nonsense. And they believe it because they only use insane troll logic.

[Catilina]

I understand that it is wrong and disagreeable, but you are not pointing out where the illogical part is.

Something can be logical but immoral or disliked.

Communism is a system that can work with small communities and is logical, but has failed on a practical level with large nations involved with a global market. The Qun has not failed on a practical level.

The Qun based on a twisted logic, which devoid of any real foundation. A logical philosophy accept the human nature as illogical factor (it can not be overlooked).Ignore the free will which every human has (do not forget, the Qunari not a race, what free from all human weakness and wishes). This system would not be viable in the real world. My opinion.

[Frandoka]

The qun is a zealous, militaristic, totalitarian, expansionist state who care not about personal identity. You're not a woman or a man under the qun you are a sword or a book. But why is the man a sword and the woman a book? Because a man swings a sword better and a woman understands the book more comprehensively than the opposite sex. But why can't a woman swing a sword or a man understand the book? Because the qun is perfect and your question is not how can a sword become a book? Confusion in one's roll would only create chaos and the Qun values order.

[Daerog]

The largest? How? It appears to cover two islands and some of Rivain. And keep in mind that a good chunk of their population is chemically lobotomized, and another one is trapped in magical chains with their mouths sealed shut; "housed, clothed, fed and works" applies to slavery too.

They hold more territory than is shown on the map. This has not been doubted by people in game, so I see no reason to doubt it. Their warships were built elsewhere before invading the two islands.

As for the rest... ummm... ya, that works. Instead of just holding people in jail for years or decades, mind wipe them and set them to work would be a more immediate benefit to society. It's not moral from where I stand, but it works.

[Daerog]

The Qun based on a twisted logic, which devoid of any real foundation. A logical philosophy accept the human nature as illogical factor (it can not be overlooked).Ignore the free will which every human has (do not forget, the Qunari not a race, what free from all human weakness and wishes). This system would not be viable in the real world. My opinion.

A logical philosophy will accept human nature as an illogical factor... eh, I think sociology and behaviorism shows how human nature isn't that illogical.

Besides, the Qun acknowledges the chaos of nature, human or other, just as any society does, and sets up rules to regulate behavior.

It tries to encourage the will of the people to be for the Qun and not selfish pursuits, similar to some religions, patriotism/nationalism, and so on.

It won't work in the real world because other philosophies and religions have dominated the world that would oppose some aspect of the Qun... also Qun has to do with rules on magic in a fantasy world which isn't applicable to Earth.

Being around since at least the Storm Age shows that it is at least viable in the fantasy world of Thedas.

[Gervaise]

We have also only been shown excerpts from the Tome of Koslun which for the most part expound the philosophy behind the society not actually detail how it should be managed.    For all we know, the Qun as it now manifests itself, may be nothing like what he intended when he set it up, just as the Chantry probably bears little resemblance to what Andraste intended for her followers.  

 

Koslun's original aim was laudable: he set out across the world searching for a society without hopelessness or despair.   When he found no such place existed, he meditated on the matter until he came up with his philosophy for building a new society for the benefit of all.    However, the reason hopelessness or despair do not exist in the Qun is that when people display such emotions, they are re-educated (brainwashed) into acceptance of the system again.   Was that Koslun's solution to the problem or would he in fact be horrified to see what had been done to his philosophy?  

[Daerog]

Maybe Koslun would have preferred to execute them if reeducation didn't work. More resources for those who don't suffer by struggling against their role.

[Xilizhra]

They hold more territory than is shown on the map. This has not been doubted by people in game, so I see no reason to doubt it. Their warships were built elsewhere before invading the two islands.

As for the rest... ummm... ya, that works. Instead of just holding people in jail for years or decades, mind wipe them and set them to work would be a more immediate benefit to society. It's not moral from where I stand, but it works.

Par Vollen is their home territory. The ships that went there were filled with qunari fleeing from their original home; said home isn't part of their territory.

 

 

Maybe Koslun would have preferred to execute them if reeducation didn't work. More resources for those who don't suffer by struggling against their role.

If he did, that would prove that he was a selfish ****** for wanting a society where he didn't have to see hopelessness or despair, instead of actually helping people so afflicted.

[The Baconer]

From the existing excerpts of Koslun's writings, I'm not seeing any indication that he actually believed in reeducation, or even "roles" as the Qunari do.

[robertmarilyn]

 

I think Bioware messed up with the Qun in Dragon age Inquisition. I think they changed the way the qun is to make qunari a more viable faction for later games, because as they were any pro qunari missions or characters would seem to espouse a society with essentially slavery and torture for mages and a rather misogynistic view towards women where they appear to have limited freedom. So any route where you side with the qunari would have to be the "evil choice".

 

Without getting into the rest of your post, the treatment of it's members, without even going into the gender part of the questions, is evil. The QUN is evil. I can't see ever choosing a pro Qun choice in any quest. 

[myahele]

I have to agree that the Qun seems alot more worse than Tevinter slaver.

 

As Solas "even a slave a dream to be a painter"  Under the Qun, that way of thought is discouraged. I suppose if the Qun was just a way of life and was optioal, then fine.

 

As it stands, those who disagree with it are given Qamek (?) are are essential Tranquil forced into labor camp. Mages of conquered territories are outright killed (or later killed) only Qun-born mages can become Saarebas. 

[Bowie Hawkins]

I have to agree that the Qun seems alot more worse than Tevinter slaver.

 

I have to agree - wile Tevinter's slavery is evil, at least a slave might have some chance of earning his or her freedom. The Qun doesn't even allow for that small a hope.

[Daerog]

Because to hope is to suffer, it makes one see their lot as bad or inferior when there should be joy for what they do.

(I don't agree, just doing devil's advocate... poorly...)

[Daerog]

If he did, that would prove that he was a selfish ****** for wanting a society where he didn't have to see hopelessness or despair, instead of actually helping people so afflicted.

I agree. I was just meaning to point out that we know very little of Koslun. He is seen as a wise and altruistic guy... by the Qunari, but he could have just been a totalitarian nut who thought everyone was scum.

Or, as this is a fantasy world, he could be completely right.

[Qun00]

It occurs to me that we've never seen a human or elven sareebas. It should be interesting.

[Lazarillo]

It occurs to me that we've never seen a human or elven sareebas. It should be interesting.

Are non-natives even allowed to be Saarebas?  Given how Ketojan and Arvaarad make it sound, and Mage that is not under constant scrutiny isn't trusted not to be secretly possessed, so "assimilated" Mages might be the one group they actually execute.

 

Though I suppose human and elven Viddathari could still have Mage children that would just get the same treatment as the other Saarebas.

[In Exile]

Are non-natives even allowed to be Saarebas? Given how Ketojan and Arvaarad make it sound, and Mage that is not under constant scrutiny isn't trusted not to be secretly possessed, so "assimilated" Mages might be the one group they actually execute.

Though I suppose human and elven Viddathari could still have Mage children that would just get the same treatment as the other Saarebas.

The Qun makes no sense when it comes to magic. Arvaarad makes it sound like even being spoken to by a mage had to be swiftly responded to with murder. But no other qunari seems to give a **** about it - even Sten.

[vertigomez]

The Qun makes no sense when it comes to magic. Arvaarad makes it sound like even being spoken to by a mage had to be swiftly responded to with murder. But no other qunari seems to give a **** about it - even Sten.

I assume this has to do with being basalit-an. You're a Mage™... until you're not. Then you're just a person who happens to have supernatural abilities.

[In Exile]

I assume this has to do with being basalit-an. You're a Mage™... until you're not. Then you're just a person who happens to have supernatural abilities.

Except you're not necessarily ever one depending on your dialogue choices. You can try and handwave it away for a time but it doesn't consistently work. And certainly not with Sten.

[Reznore57]

Except you're not necessarily ever one depending on your dialogue choices. You can try and handwave it away for a time but it doesn't consistently work. And certainly not with Sten.

 

They can't make it work ...imagine a companion who refuse to talk to you because you're playing mage or a main NPC , the Arishock doing the same.I don't remember Bioware doing anything this radical , they'd rather handwave that with some bizarre explanation , I remember one DA writer saying those Qunari see the hero as an "unicorn".

Of course they don't really see the PC as a unicorn , it's a more down to earth explanation of ressource and gameplay being more important than the lore.

Granted I'm not blaming the devs for not being able to fit their lore perfectly into the game , it's probably an headache .... just "unicorn" not sure if I should giggle or roll my eyes.

[DuskWanderer]

BioWARE has all but admitted the Qun is full of people rejecting reality and imposing their own beliefs on something that they are aware is completely fake.

 

If it helps, think of the Qun as the political party you oppose, and it makes perfect sense.