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Do you want MEA to be a good RPG or is a good game with RPG elements enough


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#326
themikefest

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ME2 clips had to search for after a fire fight before moving to a new area; ruined immersion for moving quickly to the next zone. ME3; never encountered a lack of ammo.

Really? I never had that problem in ME2.

 

If that happens in Andromeda, and its very possible, will that bother you?



#327
Sylvius the Mad

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To clarify, I understand you're position to be that you're asking for editorial control over things outside of the control of the character. I'm not making a judgment on whether it's right or wrong -just that you are asking for something akin to a writer because it's in the nature of your playstyles to require such level of control.

What? No, I don't need that level of control over other things. Just the characters I'm expected to control.

Beyond that, I'm just not going to make assumptions which will constrain my experience (those assumptions usually amount to metagaming anyway).

#328
Sylvius the Mad

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My first playthrough... I have no idea that I can actually do all the side quests after stealing the Normandy until I "stumble" into the Armstrong cluster on the way from the Citadel to Ilos (a mere mis-click).... all of a sudden, much to my surprise, I'm into an argument with Hackett and no real way to turn down the mission or tell him that I'll postpone it until after I take down Saren.

You can't tell him you won't do it (or if you can, there's no way to know which paraphrase will do it) but you can still not do it.

That's a dialogue issue, not a pacing or agency issue.

If you leave the subtitles on and the volume turned down... you have no voice, just typed-text for both the PC and the NPCs (the equivalent of no voice-acting). If you really don't want to play a game as others write it for you... write your own. Turn the subtitles off as well and dub in your own dialogue for both PC and NPCs.

I don't want to write the line myself. I want to choose among the available lines, but with the paraphrases I can't do that, because I'm not allowed to know what the lines are.

And if I waste my first playthrough learning what all the lines are (and to do this properly I'd really need to document every dialogue tree), that means that when I finally get around to playing the game all the events have been spoiled for me.

That's a problem. I abhor spoilers. I want to experience the content for the first time from an in-character perspective, but I can't do that if I need go through the game once undoing all the paraphrasing before I can actually play.

My goal with turning off the subtitles is to eliminate the full line entirely, thus making the paraphrases themselves the sum total of the protagonist's dialogue. I don't want to know what the full line is, because that knowledge will colour my interpretation of amy NPC response.
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#329
In Exile

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What? No, I don't need that level of control over other things. Just the characters I'm expected to control.

Beyond that, I'm just not going to make assumptions which will constrain my experience (those assumptions usually amount to metagaming anyway).


Let me clarify: it's a necessary consequence of your position that you have this level of control. We've canvassed this before in your approach to explaining a misunderstand and the idea it's not the same NPC in every playthrough. That's an editorial determination outside of your character.

More generally, you're asking for a design that allows you as much latitude as possible.

#330
Sylvius the Mad

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Really? I never had that problem in ME2.

I did.

I'd fight in one room, and there would be a ton of ammo lying around. More than I could carry.

Then in the next room, there would be another fight that produced little or no ammo. After that fight, I'd try to go back to the previous room to grab ammo (because I always wanted to be full, given the option), and find that the door to the last room had been permanently sealed.

And this happened all the time.

If I'd just assumed that I would find more ammo eventually if I kept moving forward, I probably wouldn't have noticed this problem, but why would I assume that? I need ammo. There's some just back there. Why can't I go get it?

That badly damaged the believability of ME2 for me.
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#331
Sylvius the Mad

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Let me clarify: it's a necessary consequence of your position that you have this level of control. We've canvassed this before in your approach to explaining a misunderstand and the idea it's not the same NPC in every playthrough. That's an editorial determination outside of your character.

No, I'm just not assuming that it is the same NPC in every playthrough. And how would I ever know? I can't perceive multiple playthroughs while in character.

More generally, you're asking for a design that allows you as much latitude as possible.

Yes.

#332
Elhanan

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Also, ME2 had weapon restrictions. In both the other games, one could use other weapons, though there may have been panalities to do so (;eg; untrained, encumbrance, etc). Player control and freedom for a build is preferred.
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#333
Sylvius the Mad

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Also, ME2 had weapon restrictions. In both the other games, one could use other weapons, though there may have been panalities to do so (;eg; untrained, encumbrance, etc). Player control and freedom for a build is preferred.

I'd forgotten about that. My sniping Engineer was denied me in ME2.

#334
Elhanan

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I'd forgotten about that. My sniping Engineer was denied me in ME2.


I had one, but for only the latter part of the game.

#335
Cyonan

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Also, ME2 had weapon restrictions. In both the other games, one could use other weapons, though there may have been panalities to do so (;eg; untrained, encumbrance, etc). Player control and freedom for a build is preferred.

 

As much as some people like being able to equip weapons untrained for RP reasons, the penalties were so severe in ME1 that it was almost pointless to equip anything but a Sniper Rifle because that was the only one that didn't have a stupidly massive weapon spread. At that point, it's not really "freedom for a build". There was weapon training to gain access to a weapon you didn't have, but ME2 had that as well. It was just half way through the game as compared to part of New Game+ like in ME1.

 

The ME3 system isn't a bad idea, but encumbrance needs some rebalancing because it wasn't terribly effective at what it was trying to do. The most important thing BioWare needs to remember is that super light weapons shouldn't boast the highest DPS in the game.



#336
Fixers0

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As much as some people like being able to equip weapons untrained for RP reasons, the penalties were so severe in ME1 that it was almost pointless to equip anything but a Sniper Rifle because that was the only one that didn't have a stupidly massive weapon spread. At that point, it's not really "freedom for a build".

 

Funny, In my experience the sniper rifle was the only untrained weapon I'd have serious problems with, wheras the shotgun would always be effective at close range, regardless of class, especially when kitted out right.



#337
dreamgazer

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The Thermal Clip Fairy should be thrown out the airlock. It's gonna make even less sense in Andromeda.

Know what makes sense? Reverting to overheating weapons for the trip into alien territory.
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#338
themikefest

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I did.

I'd fight in one room, and there would be a ton of ammo lying around. More than I could carry.

Then in the next room, there would be another fight that produced little or no ammo. After that fight, I'd try to go back to the previous room to grab ammo (because I always wanted to be full, given the option), and find that the door to the last room had been permanently sealed.

And this happened all the time.

If I'd just assumed that I would find more ammo eventually if I kept moving forward, I probably wouldn't have noticed this problem, but why would I assume that? I need ammo. There's some just back there. Why can't I go get it?

That badly damaged the believability of ME2 for me.

You must be wasting a lot of ammo by missing your target or firing your weapon when you don't need to.  As I said, I had no problem. Maybe its because I don't use my weapon all the time, but use the powers available for the class I'm playing. Or maybe my Shepard is just that good of a shot that she doesn't have to worry about running out of ammo.



#339
Cyonan

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Funny, In my experience the sniper rifle was the only untrained weapon I'd have serious problems with, wheras the shotgun would always be effective at close range, regardless of class, especially when kitted out right.

 

I consider the Sniper Rifle an entertaining challenge, because it simply has very bad weapon sway while scoped in rather than severe accuracy penalties, which made it purely reliant on player skill rather than partially character skill like the other weapon classes.

 

The shotgun can work at extremely close range but I find that's not really a solid strategy to use on the higher difficulties unless you're playing a class that already has access to shotguns. The only way I might be able to see it working is on a Commando spec Infiltrator designed around having a 90% uptime on Immunity simply because of how strong that ability was at keeping you alive through all the damage you're going to be taking for being in the ranges an untrained shotgun required to do any half way respectable damage.

 

Assault Rifles are basically "non Soldiers need not apply" without the NG+ training.



#340
UpUpAway

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You can't tell him you won't do it (or if you can, there's no way to know which paraphrase will do it) but you can still not do it.

That's a dialogue issue, not a pacing or agency issue.
I don't want to write the line myself. I want to choose among the available lines, but with the paraphrases I can't do that, because I'm not allowed to know what the lines are.

And if I waste my first playthrough learning what all the lines are (and to do this properly I'd really need to document every dialogue tree), that means that when I finally get around to playing the game all the events have been spoiled for me.

That's a problem. I abhor spoilers. I want to experience the content for the first time from an in-character perspective, but I can't do that if I need go through the game once undoing all the paraphrasing before I can actually play.

My goal with turning off the subtitles is to eliminate the full line entirely, thus making the paraphrases themselves the sum total of the protagonist's dialogue. I don't want to know what the full line is, because that knowledge will colour my interpretation of amy NPC response.

 

I really don't get your issue with the suggestion to just not allow the player to go do side quests between stealing the Normandy and going to Ilos.  It really doesn't affect any of your role playing... it would just make stealing the Normandy part of the final mission itself. 

 

It's not like anyone would use full player agency to, say, leave Ilos mid-mission to go do a side quest and expect to return to the battle just wherever you left it off - that is, I don't hear you or anyone else asking for that level of freedom.  So what if that Ilos mission begins with stealing the Normandy.  My point is that it's all a matter of degree... some writer agency is necessary for them to maintain any sort of coherent story.  If you don't want to write the story yourself, you have to leave them some ability to "direct" the story in different ways.  Allowing them to do some pacing is one of those ways... and sometimes it's better than no pacing at all.

 

As for your inability to take any sort of paraphrase and make an educated guess... that's your issue.  Most people can.  As for, sometimes, the paraphrases not being "good paraphrases" that's something that I imagine Bioware continues to work on and improve.  I would not enjoy there being full typed-text for every sentence choice the player makes on behalf of the PC... too much reading overall.  If I want to read a book... I'll read a book.  (I also hate lengthy, lengthy codexes in game that provide a bunch of unnecessary and often completely unused background information.  I much prefer a separate Wiki for that sort of thing.)



#341
Cyonan

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You must be wasting a lot of ammo by missing your target or firing your weapon when you don't need to.  As I said, I had no problem. Maybe its because I don't use my weapon all the time, but use the powers available for the class I'm playing. Or maybe my Shepard is just that good of a shot that she doesn't have to worry about running out of ammo.

 

I think it depends on the weapon class, because I remember shotguns having a stupidly small amount of ammo in that game which meant my Vanguard was relying on powers or SMG/Pistol a lot(which were both weaker than my shotgun). Soldier didn't suffer since they had Assault Rifles which were fine on ammo.

 

and I'm too accurate to waste ammo =P


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#342
Fixers0

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I consider the Sniper Rifle an entertaining challenge, because it simply has very bad weapon sway while scoped in rather than severe accuracy penalties, which made it purely reliant on player skill rather than partially character skill like the other weapon classes.

 

But you can't even scope in when it's untrained, and noscoping is undoable job, hence I don't use them. Though It did actually kind of bothered me there was no sway at all in the later games, just a little bit to maintain realism would have been nice, especially when not in a stable position.

 

The shotgun can work at extremely close range but I find that's not really a solid strategy to use on the higher difficulties unless you're playing a class that already has access to shotguns. The only way I might be able to see it working is on a Commando spec Infiltrator designed around having a 90% uptime on Immunity simply because of how strong that ability was at keeping you alive through all the damage you're going to be taking for being in the ranges an untrained shotgun required to do any half way respectable damage.

 

With sledgehammer/hammerhead rounds you can knock most opponent over pretty consistently, It's very effective against Thorians Creepers/Husk/Rachni. And with HE rounds I could reliably finish off wounded Krogan or other high health targets.



#343
Cyonan

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But you can't even scope in when it's untrained, and noscoping is undoable job, hence I don't use them. Though It did actually kind of bothered me there was no sway at all in the later games, just a little bit to maintain realism would have been nice, especially when not in a stable position.

 

I may have confused that with a trained but no skill points spent Sniper Rifle, then. Without scope they're useless as the spread is the size of the screen.

 

With sledgehammer/hammerhead rounds you can knock most opponent over pretty consistently, It's very effective against Thorians Creepers/Husk/Rachni. And with HE rounds I could reliably finish off wounded Krogan or other high health targets.

 

It could be situationally useful but the bulk of the enemies you fight are mercs or geth troopers. Even with the Creepers/Husks if other units are mixed in that have guns, they're going to be doing a lot of damage to you unless you go hide behind a corner and wait for them to come to you.

 

On Insanity I found Krogans regen too quickly for switching weapons to finish them off to really be a viable tactic.



#344
Pasquale1234

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I think it depends on the weapon class, because I remember shotguns having a stupidly small amount of ammo in that game which meant my Vanguard was relying on powers or SMG/Pistol a lot(which were both weaker than my shotgun). Soldier didn't suffer since they had Assault Rifles which were fine on ammo.
 
and I'm too accurate to waste ammo =P


Some weapons had too little ammo capacity relative to their other stats.

I really wanted my Infiltrator to use the M29-Incisor as her primary weapon - but with the 3-shot burst it consumed ammo fairly rapidly, and its capacity was not really beefed up enough to compensate.

 

The ammo limits in ME2 were a pain, which is probably why ME3 had ammo crates installed.



#345
Fixers0

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It could be situationally useful but the bulk of the enemies you fight are mercs or geth troopers. Even with the Creepers/Husks if other units are mixed in that have guns, they're going to be doing a lot of damage to you unless you go hide behind a corner and wait for them to come to you.

Husk/Rachni encounters are pretty isolated from other enemies though. Rachni can spit acid, but that can easily be avoided, unless it's a group of more than five, you can pretty reliable knock melee enemies down and shotgun them to death, when properly fitted, of course.



#346
dreamgazer

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I'm too accurate to waste ammo =P


I'm not. #YOLO

But seriously, let's bring back overheating weapons.

#347
UpUpAway

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You must be wasting a lot of ammo by missing your target or firing your weapon when you don't need to.  As I said, I had no problem. Maybe its because I don't use my weapon all the time, but use the powers available for the class I'm playing. Or maybe my Shepard is just that good of a shot that she doesn't have to worry about running out of ammo.

 

I'm not absolutely certain, but I think player accuracy also plays a role on just how much ammo the enemies will drop.  There are, of course, pre-placed ones around most battlefields in ME2 (just not in crates like ME3), but how much extra the enemies will drop seems to vary with me... depending on how many headshots I'm getting, etc. (my vision is good on some days and not so good on others, so my playing accuracy varies from day to day quite a lot.)  I do run out on my primary weapon sometimes, but then I just switch out to my backup and keep moving.  For my backup weapons I often select the models that have the larger clips/capacity.  I've only run right out of ammo once or twice in all the playthroughs I've done... and then I just settle in (hunker down) and start using powers only (which is only the logical thing to do IMO if one was really running low of ammo).  If I'm an Infiltrator, I'll start sneaking in close with cloak and start using the melee more.


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#348
Oni Changas

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I want it to be a GREAT RPG with good action elements. As I said, take the best of the trilogy and combine them. ME1's RPG elements and battle mechanics (individual cooldown, difference between shields/barriers/health/armor, enemies having similar abilities to the player) ME2's weapon balancing and tone (all weapons had an advantage/disadvantage, no gun was an "omni-weapon" outside of glitches with AR) and ME3's gameplay (biotic/tech explosions, grenades not being based on cooldown, faster paced player movement, more melee options). Of course I'm welcome to new ideas and implementations.



#349
UpUpAway

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Some weapons had too little ammo capacity relative to their other stats.

I really wanted my Infiltrator to use the M29-Incisor as her primary weapon - but with the 3-shot burst it consumed ammo fairly rapidly, and its capacity was not really beefed up enough to compensate.

 

The ammo limits in ME2 were a pain, which is probably why ME3 had ammo crates installed.

 

I have frequently equipped the Incisor... and I have less issues running out of ammo with it than I do with the Mantis.



#350
Oni Changas

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Some weapons had too little ammo capacity relative to their other stats.

I really wanted my Infiltrator to use the M29-Incisor as her primary weapon - but with the 3-shot burst it consumed ammo fairly rapidly, and its capacity was not really beefed up enough to compensate.

 

The ammo limits in ME2 were a pain, which is probably why ME3 had ammo crates installed.

As an infiltrator you really had to mix in the pistol just as much and save the SR for non-husk armor/bosses. Also power cells completely refils ammo for all weapons outside of the limited heavy weapon quantities. The extra ammo armor gauntlets really come in handy too.


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