891 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Most people would complain about Mantis spare ammo, it seems.

Yep. The only place ammo scarcity has really bit me was with my Incisor Infiltrator.
 

There is freedom in how you can approach scarcity of clips. You can rotate weapons, you could use powers, you could ensure that you ragdoll enemies on health for more ammo efficiency, etc.

I've never denied that. I have consistently stated that there are always other strategies available.
 

I don't see much difference in using a single weapon for the whole mission versus using one specific power the whole mission.

Regardless of the wisdom in such a strategy, it would actually be possible to use the same power repeatedly in the same mission. Powers cooldown and are available for re-use. ME2 weapons require ammo that is expended. ME1 (and a few available in ME3) weapons cooldown.
 

The game shouldn't be simple (as in not complex) enough that this is optimal on high difficulty.

I don't believe I ever suggested that it should be optimal on any difficulty, just possible to at least try - even if it wouldn't (perhaps shouldn't) be successful on higher difficulties.
 

What if I only like Incinerate as a power and want to use that? Pretty inefficient against synthetics, somewhat inefficient against health. Probably would need to fire a weapon to fill in the gaps. There isn't a huge difference between that and mixing weapons / powers in my mind to use your favorite weapon.

See above.
 

The only thing the game actually forces you to do is create a cohesive strategy.

With full use of powers, and limited use of weapons. You cannot use weapons for which you have no thermal clips, and they are random enemy drops. Although these clips are supposedly universal, you cannot remove them from one weapon to use in another.

The difference between us is this: You're arguing for complexity, difficulty, and optimization. Sometimes I enjoy that (I do have all of the cheevos in all 3 games) as well, but other times I just want some uncomplicated run-n-gun fun - which is a lot harder to come by in ME2 because thermal clips.

[capn233]

I would agree that strictly speaking power use per mission is unlimited, but practically speaking you are limited by time constraints, whether they are real world constraints or the ability to kill every unit before they kill you.  Cooldowns create scarcity of power use essentially, it isn't completely unlike limited ammo.

[In Exile]

Or it could be that some people just aren't fond of game mechanics that enforce playstyle.

... or don't particularly enjoy trying to RP a character that doesn't seem to have the smarts to properly prepare for missions, and has to rely on enemy drops to survive.

That's silly - all RPGs are based on surviving off scavaging off the corpses of your dead.

[Elhanan]

Please cite the evidence if it exists.  Objective, actual evidence.
 
The Predator is a decent anti-armor weapon.  It has above average armor DPS.  Calling it useless is like saying that a hammer is useless because it doesn't secure screws.
 
Every class that has the Predator has access to at the very least SMGs for shield / barrier work.  There are options to boost damage against health for every class.  The top difficulty may be punishing, but it outright tells you how to get bonus damage and what weapons are best against what defense layers.

Theoretical results, FWIW:
Carnifex ~ 16 x 85.4 = 1366.4 base dmg, 9.48s
Phalanx ~ 12 x 109.8 = 1317.6 base dmg, 10.43s
Predator ~ 36 x 37.2 = 1339.2 base dmg, 10.06s

(from yt site)

This is based on all rounds hitting the target, I believe, and the Phalanx (which I have yet to use) has a laser site to improve those odds. All have 1.5x vs armor. And considering Ammo powers are not shared until latter part of game, those classes without them just have to rely on the basics.

At best, the Predator appears to come in at second place, requiring more than twice or thrice the rounds to hit with less than 40 dmg per hit. Considering many opinions prefer other choices, this would suggest the Predator is a lesser option.

But based on observation in my game, I already kinda knew this.

[Elhanan]

That's silly - all RPGs are based on surviving off scavaging off the corpses of your dead.

Except they are not on the bodies; they are scattered as litter like ejected clips.

[Iakus]

Except they are not on the bodies; they are scattered as litter like ejected clips.

And located in places where they shouldn't exist

 

like Aeia

[Cyonan]

If we want to look at numbers, the burst and sustained for each pistol in ME2 are:

 

> Predator: 186 Burst, 116.55 Sustained

> Carnifex: 206.38 Burst, 130.96 Sustained

> Phalanx: 146.4 Burst, 110.1 Sustained

 

This is all based on normal damage. All guns do 1.5x damage against armour. Ammo efficiency wise it goes Phalanx > Predator > Carnifex and accuracy wise they're all very accurate pistols.

 

but the claim is that the Predator is a useless pistol, so let's compare it to some other starting weapons:

 

> Avenger: 191.25 Burst, 124.90 Sustained(Defense multiplier has been applied to this already because it's 1.25x for all 3)

> Katana: 176 Burst, 141.94 Sustained(1.5x against shields/barriers)

> Mantis: 105.24 DPS(I am assuming ~1 second before being allowed to reload like the ME3 Mantis has. 1.5x against armour)

> Shurken: 239.17 Burst, 159.44 Sustained(Assumes full auto fire which is highly inaccurate. 1.5x against shields/barriers)

 

Looking at the numbers we find that the Predator actually boasts the highest armour DPS of any starting weapons with 279/174.83. Much like in Mass Effect 3 it has the highest damage output of the starter weapons, only unlike in Mass Effect 3 you can actually easily hit the rate of fire potential without using click spam macros.

 

The only problem that the Predator can have is that all the pistols had rather poor ammo efficiency but then, so do the sniper rifles and shotguns.

 

Which backs up what I see in my Mass Effect 2 Insanity runs: The Predator is a solid pistol that has lower damage than the Carnifex but better ammo efficiency. The main advantage of something like the Avenger is that the ammo efficiency far surpasses that of any pistol, not that it deals massively better damage.

[capn233]

Theoretical results, FWIW:
Carnifex ~ 16 x 85.4 = 1366.4 base dmg, 9.48s
Phalanx ~ 12 x 109.8 = 1317.6 base dmg, 10.43s
Predator ~ 36 x 37.2 = 1339.2 base dmg, 10.06s

(from yt site)

This is based on all rounds hitting the target, I believe, and the Phalanx (which I have yet to use) has a laser site to improve those odds. All have 1.5x vs armor. And considering Ammo powers are not shared until latter part of game, those classes without them just have to rely on the basics.

At best, the Predator appears to come in at second place, requiring more than twice or thrice the rounds to hit with less than 40 dmg per hit. Considering many opinions prefer other choices, this would suggest the Predator is a lesser option.

But based on observation in my game, I already kinda knew this.

 

Not sure where those numbers came from, at first I thought it might be sinosleep's comp against YMIR's on smuggling depot, but don't think it was the one linked from his thread.  I can rerun the numbers in a bit.

 

Carnifex does indeed have the highest armor DPS for a pistol, in fact it has the best armor DPS of pretty much anything that isn't a Mattock on a Soldier.  The Predator does not have as much stat DPS, but that is why it has a lot more ammo.  It is still ahead of a whole lot of weapons in terms of armor dps, especially when upgraded with penetration upgrade (armor multiplier 1.5 goes to 2.25) and critical (30% chance of "double damage).

 

The point is that the Predator is actually adequate as an armor stripper.

 

ninja'd by Cyonan

 

Also fwiw, Predator 5/5 penetration and critical does ~491 sustained armor dps.

[capn233]

> Mantis: 105.24 DPS(I am assuming ~1 second before being allowed to reload like the ME3 Mantis has. 1.5x against armour)

Now you are going to make me look this up.

[Cyonan]

Now you are going to make me look this up.

 

The wiki didn't say an actual RoF, so I just assumed =P

[Elhanan]

And again, three classes only have the Predator and a SMG to begin with; bad and worse, IMO.

But the wider picture is that ME2 is not the RPG I wish to emulate; much prefer the other two games in the series. And if I had my choice, it would be RP like ME1 with the mechanics of ME3; sans those overlong cut-scenes and Interrupts.

[capn233]

The wiki didn't say an actual RoF, so I just assumed =P

 

Yeah rate of fire is 70.

 

I get 112 dps though.  Cycle time of 2.35s (60/70 + 1.5).  Unless I forgot something.  This is the same as the ME2 weapon dps chart buried in the wiki lists for unupgraded Mantis, although some caution needs to be taken when using that chart as it is definitely misleading for protection dps.

[saMoorai]

Definitely a Good RPG. 

[Armass81]

ME3 style of combat with rpg elements and ME1 style of story. A fuller dialogue wheel, less auto dialogue. They should also redesign the whole paragon/renegade system, it felt like you were forced to be one or the other in the past games, make it more free. And concerning inventory, let us have the mix of ME3 and ME1 armory with lots of weapon, armor, customization and mod options, but not over cluttering it and having tons of omni-gel converting, it was just tedious to carry million weapons, mods and armor with you and selling it all the time to get more inventory space.

[Cyonan]

And again, three classes only have the Predator and a SMG to begin with; bad and worse, IMO.

But the wider picture is that ME2 is not the RPG I wish to emulate; much prefer the other two games in the series. And if I had my choice, it would be RP like ME1 with the mechanics of ME3; sans those overlong cut-scenes and Interrupts.

 

but the SMGs all have respectable ammo efficiency as well. They're just not as accurate as the Assault Rifles, except for the Locust which is an amazing all around SMG you can get very early in the game if you have the Kasumi DLC.

 

Hell, I would say the Locust is arguably better than the Avenger or Vindicator. The main Assault Rifles that will out do it are the Revenant which is Soldier only, or the Mattock only on a Soldier because you need Adrenaline Rush to maximize its damage output.

 

I get that you don't like the weapon restrictions, but it still seems odd that you think these weapons are bad when they do as much damage as the weapons you're saying aren't bad.

 

Yeah rate of fire is 70.

 

I get 112 dps though.  Cycle time of 2.35s (60/70 + 1.5).  Unless I forgot something.  This is the same as the ME2 weapon dps chart buried in the wiki lists for unupgraded Mantis, although some caution needs to be taken when using that chart as it is definitely misleading for protection dps.

 

Yeah I assumed 60, so 112 should be the correct number at a RoF of 70.

[AlanC9]

I get that you don't like the weapon restrictions, but it still seems odd that you think these weapons are bad when they do as much damage as the weapons you're saying aren't bad.
.

Elhanan has the DLC, right?

I wasn't happy with the way the DLC weapons were so good in ME2. ME3 rolled them out as part of progression, which worked better for me.

[Fixers0]

 SG w/ HE untrained overheating every time has bottom drawer dps.

 

If you properly coordinate your attacks It's a one-hit kill anyways, I use mostly for finishing off melee enemies, and it's worked every time. Isolating  and disabling your enemies is the key.

[Elhanan]

Elhanan has the DLC, right?

I wasn't happy with the way the DLC weapons were so good in ME2. ME3 rolled them out as part of progression, which worked better for me.

Only a little of the DLC. LotSB and some other free stuff like the Hammerhead missions I installed earlier still work, but Arrival, Overlord, and the weapon packs that include the 3rd pistol remain untouched or un-installed correctly.

[Elhanan]

but the SMGs all have respectable ammo efficiency as well. They're just not as accurate as the Assault Rifles, except for the Locust which is an amazing all around SMG you can get very early in the game if you have the Kasumi DLC.
 
Hell, I would say the Locust is arguably better than the Avenger or Vindicator. The main Assault Rifles that will out do it are the Revenant which is Soldier only, or the Mattock only on a Soldier because you need Adrenaline Rush to maximize its damage output.
 
I get that you don't like the weapon restrictions, but it still seems odd that you think these weapons are bad when they do as much damage as the weapons you're saying aren't bad.  
 
Yeah I assumed 60, so 112 should be the correct number at a RoF of 70.

I may have the names incorrect, but I use the Tempest SMG acquired on Tali's dossier Mission, but the starting SMG is skipped. I do not use Kasumi, but even if I did, am not a fan of pay to win.

[Cyonan]

I may have the names incorrect, but I use the Tempest SMG acquired on Tali's dossier Mission. I do not use Kasumi, but even if I did, am not a fan of pay to win.

 

While many of the DLC weapons for ME2 were overpowered, the Locust is more just a different style from other SMGs rather than outright stronger(meaning it's in no way "pay to win"). It had better anti-armour than the other SMGs which gave casters an early game option for armour that had decent ammo efficiency, but it would cost you in shield/barrier damage because the Tempest and Shuriken are both better at those defenses.

 

Even though I did say it's arguably better than the Avenger and Vindicator(which also means I'm not saying it's flat out better), it's still not anywhere near the Revenant.

 

However I would say the Predator is on par with the Tempest in terms of damage output. It's just that one is better at armour while the other is better at shields/barriers. The Predator is also easier to headshot with due to far superior accuracy.

[Elhanan]

While many of the DLC weapons for ME2 were overpowered, the Locust is more just a different style from other SMGs rather than outright stronger(meaning it's in no way "pay to win"). It had better anti-armour than the other SMGs which gave casters an early game option for armour that had decent ammo efficiency, but it would cost you in shield/barrier damage because the Tempest and Shuriken are both better at those defenses.
 
Even though I did say it's arguably better than the Avenger and Vindicator(which also means I'm not saying it's flat out better), it's still not anywhere near the Revenant.
 
However I would say the Predator is on par with the Tempest in terms of damage output. It's just that one is better at armour while the other is better at shields/barriers. The Predator is also easier to headshot with due to far superior accuracy.

As indicated, the Predator does little dmg and requires two to three times as many hits as the other pistols. And due to the higher fire rate, one sacrifices cover to fire those extra required shots. For the non-Soldier classes, abilities are a better option than the pop-pop pistol.

[Sylvius the Mad]

@Sylvius - and having the enemy sometimes cut off that tactical retreat is just "life" - then you adapt by going forward short on ammo.

It wasn't enemies doing it. It was the walls.

I get that the game is designed to require us to swap weapons based on the situation. I just don't understand why. RPGs don't typically require us to tackle obstacles in a specific way chosen by the devlopers, and I certainly didn't expect that in ME2.

This also just highlighted how dumb the addition of the ammo mechanic was. ME1 didn't have ammo, and ME1's weapons would have been more effective in ME2 than ME2's weapons were. Given the gameplay, the lore-based explanation for the mechanic didn't make any sense.

I was predisposed to dislike it because I didn't think it added anything good to the game, so the extra frustration was incredibly irritating. There was no benefit, and significant cost.

ME2 was explicitly designed as a shooter first (Christina Norman said so during development), and it showed. Badly.

[Seraphim24]

I can't help but think I'm over the "video game" thing, it's always just a story at the end of the day.

[nfi42]

I can't help but think I'm over the "video game" thing, it's always just a story at the end of the day.

 

Game forums are for discussing games.  If your over them,  you know what to do.

[Seraphim24]

Game forums are for discussing games.  If your over them,  you know what to do.

 

Don't be such a sperg, it's just a label at the end of the day.

 

It would save a lot of resources and time, energy to just make a story instead of a video game.

 

I've played games since the arcade days it doesn't make me any more attached to them, per se.

 

I watched the Paragon anime thing, I was pretty satisfied.