891 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

This is easily explainable once you learn Elizabeth from BioShock can hop across dimensions. She is truly the ammo fairy of videogamedom.

HEADCANON REVIEW SHEET:

[x] Approved
[x] Denied

[Pasquale1234]

I've actually gotten through several missions in ME2 without stopping to pick an additional thermal clip at all; so whether or not you'll run out even just using the initial ammo load depends on how well you use your weapons and powers and squad.

It also depends on whether you use your weapons and ammo at all.

You can play the entire game without firing a shot. People who are more aggressive with weapon use are naturally going to burn through more ammo.

[Cyonan]

Well, the particular combination of weapons I used as the example would include 9 for the Mantis plus 5 for the Predator plus 12 for the Locust, for a total of 26 clips to start. That is actually what the game provides.

 

This is what I was talking about before though.

 

When you pick up a thermal clip it gives ammo for every weapon which is how I figured it was representing the universal nature of them. If you were going to make ammo a shared resource and still wanted the full clips of all weapons combined then picking up a thermal clip should only give 1 clip, not 1 for each weapon you have equipped which makes no sense lore wise.

 

Which doesn't really change a whole lot beyond the opening minutes of each mission, unless of course you increase the amount of ammo that drops.

 

You're still using both numbers as defined for the weapons, which I think could go away if the clips were pooled, and instead the weapons were empty when you first load out for the mission.

What I'd suggest is having each clip represent some number of shots for the weapon, for example:
Mantis: 1
Predator: 5
Locust: 20

So equipping the Predator and hitting the reload mechanic would expend 1 clip and set the Predator to its capacity of 5.

As it stands, the second number in Mantis: 1/9 is how much clip capacity you have left for that specific weapon. It cannot be reassigned to other weapons, and thus is not pulling from a shared pool.

 

What it would come down to is how one separates current mechanics from current lore involving the thermal clips.

 

Right now picking up a thermal clip provides ammo for all weapons but reloading doesn't consume ammo for all weapons. That means one of two assumptions will have to be made:

 

1. That Shep can only carry ~10 clips and that it's just consuming ammo for each weapon separately for the sake of mechanics

2. That Shep can carry ~10 clips per gun and that thermal clips are magically self replicating when picked up based on how many guns you have for the sake of mechanics.

 

If we make those 100% lore abiding then in the first scenario you're not getting any more ammo for your main weapon and in the second scenario you're picking up significantly less ammo with each clip.

 

Given that the original complaint was a lack of ammo, I suspect that neither of those would actually solve the complaint that people had unless an additional increase in ammo drops were given.

 

If you use your SR fairly aggressively, you'll likely find that you'll need to quit shooting in some places unless you pick up clips mid-battle. Of course, cloaking can pretty helpful with re-positioning for clip pick-up, but just sitting back in cover, firing, and using powers will put you out of ammo fairly quickly.

 

I'll play Infiltrator like I usually do, which is very aggressive.

 

The main thing is going to be ensuring that I stick to the "one shot, one kill" mantra of snipers because my gun will only hold 10 total shots at any given time.

[Elhanan]

I've actually gotten through several missions in ME2 without stopping to pick an additional thermal clip at all; so whether or not you'll run out even just using the initial ammo load depends on how well you use your weapons and powers and squad.  You're making the choice to "police" the battlefield for clips because you're too insecure to advance without full ammo... and the game allows you to make that choice.

Your call, but to me it is an unwise choice; more likely one based on meta-game knowledge. Have fun with the pop gun!

[CronoDragoon]

Ammo is for wusses

 

- Vanguard

[Pasquale1234]

When you pick up a thermal clip it gives ammo for every weapon which is how I figured it was representing the universal nature of them. If you were going to make ammo a shared resource and still wanted the full clips of all weapons combined then picking up a thermal clip should only give 1 clip, not 1 for each weapon you have equipped which makes no sense lore wise.

They use some formula to distribute them.

I just made a wee test run (Incisor Infiltrator), and ran the Incisor out of ammo. My pistol and SMG were still full to capacity. Then I burned ~ 1/2 of the SMG's ammo, then picked up a clip. The Incisor, which is 15/30, was given 4 rounds, so it could be fired once since it fires 3-round bursts. I didn't take note of the number of rounds added for the SMG, but it was probably less than a clip's worth, presumably reduced by the portion given to the Incisor.

That is the only intermingling of per weapon ammo in ME2. When you pick up a dropped clip, the game assigns it to whatever weapons are currently less than capacity, apportioning it per some internal formula. Once assigned, ammo stays with the weapon to which it was assigned until it is used by that weapon. It cannot be taken from one weapon to be used in another.

Using ammo from one weapon does not impact the amount of ammo you still have on hand for other weapons you are carrying.

Also - I do think some of the planted clips might work differently than others. Like completely refill all of your ammo stocks instead of giving you only a clips' worth.

My preferred solution - which would be completely in line with lore - would have Shep able to carry some number of clips, and use them in whatever weapons s/he chooses. Picking up a clip would simply add 1 to the clip inventory, so long as it stays within the alloted capacity.
 

Given that the original complaint was a lack of ammo, I suspect that neither of those would actually solve the complaint that people had unless an additional increase in ammo drops were given.

Hmm... I think the original complaint had more to do with not being able to go back for clips because doors shut behind you, needing to run around looking for clips, and the fact that the game assigns clips to weapons instead of allowing players to use them as desired.

[capn233]

The goal is to use only sniper rifles for the entire game and basically never fire another weapon. I'm still allowed to use powers and picking up ammo is fair game(although I will avoid using nothing but powers to beat entire fights). The only exception will be the first mission where I'm limited to just a pistol, but as far as I recall there isn't any other cases of that happening in Mass Effect 2. I also basically never used melee to begin with in ME2 anyway.

 

This is an experiment as to if a playstyle is viable(in this case, playing with strictly a sniper rifle as my firearm), not how badly I can gimp myself while still being able to beat the game. Not using powers makes as much sense to me as saying "I want to beat Mass Effect 1 without spending a single skill point while wielding an unmodded Avenger I as my only weapon".

 

Most likely I would play as an Infiltrator and rely primarily on Tactical Cloak and Disruptor Rounds to increase my sniper rifle damage. The alternative is Soldier, but I don't think I'll need the time dilation of Adrenaline Rush to increase headshot reliability.

 

Infiltrator ends up with time dilation whenever you scope, if you invest in passive.  So you are stuck with it either way.

 

Incinerate is probably the best vanilla Infiltrator power early, IMO.  Although it can still give everything a run late too, given power-reloading.

[UpUpAway]

Your call, but to me it is an unwise choice; more likely one based on meta-game knowledge. Have fun with the pop gun!

 

Yes, it's my call, unwise or otherwise.  That means I do have player agency... so that kills any arguments that it's "imposing anything" or "forcing" players to play in a certain style, doesn't it?  The fact that I've made such an unwise decision in the past also shows that it's a decision I made without meta-game knowledge... it shows that I was "immersed" enough in the battle that I just kept on fighting and advancing.  That I got to the end of the mission without actually fully running out of ammo in all weapons, just shows that I played skillfully... using a good balance of weapons and powers (even the limited powers that a soldier has - adrenaline rush and concussive shot) and using my squad mates to good effect as well.

[Cyonan]

They use some formula to distribute them.

I just made a wee test run (Incisor Infiltrator), and ran the Incisor out of ammo. My pistol and SMG were still full to capacity. Then I burned ~ 1/2 of the SMG's ammo, then picked up a clip. The Incisor, which is 15/30, was given 4 rounds, so it could be fired once since it fires 3-round bursts. I didn't take note of the number of rounds added for the SMG, but it was probably less than a clip's worth, presumably reduced by the portion given to the Incisor.

That is the only intermingling of per weapon ammo in ME2. When you pick up a dropped clip, the game assigns it to whatever weapons are currently less than capacity, apportioning it per some internal formula. Once assigned, ammo stays with the weapon to which it was assigned until it is used by that weapon. It cannot be taken from one weapon to be used in another.

Using ammo from one weapon does not impact the amount of ammo you still have on hand for other weapons you are carrying.

Also - I do think some of the planted clips might work differently than others. Like completely refill all of your ammo stocks instead of giving you only a clips' worth.

My preferred solution - which would be completely in line with lore - would have Shep able to carry some number of clips, and use them in whatever weapons s/he chooses. Picking up a clip would simply add 1 to the clip inventory, so long as it stays within the alloted capacity.

 

I just did a test and my Predator was restoring the same amount of ammo regardless of the ammo status of my other guns.

 

Hmm... I think the original complaint had more to do with not being able to go back for clips because doors shut behind you, needing to run around looking for clips, and the fact that the game assigns clips to weapons instead of allowing players to use them as desired.

 

There was also complaints about the general lack of ammo and "need to clip hunt" because people wanted to use the same weapon for 100% of the game.

 

Which ammo concerns aside I already think that it's good design to get the player to occasionally rethink their strategy.

 

Infiltrator ends up with time dilation whenever you scope, if you invest in passive.  So you are stuck with it either way.

 

Incinerate is probably the best vanilla Infiltrator power early, IMO.  Although it can still give everything a run late too, given power-reloading.

 

Yeah, so far it's been hilariously easy to headshot things with 60% time dilation once I got used to it again.

 

I was gonna play through ME2 again anyway. It'll be fun to see if I can use nothing but the sniper rifle to headshot everything.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Combat Drone annoys most targets enough that it acts as another ally on the squad. And an enemy not focused on Shepard allows for a variety of possibilities.

I enjoyed the drone in ME3.

[capn233]

They use some formula to distribute them.

I just did a test and my Predator was restoring the same amount of ammo regardless of the ammo status of my other guns.

The way clip pickup works in ME2 is that each weapon has a defined range for pickup per clip (it is mostly listed on the wiki, although somewhat incomplete. For instance Vindi just has 17-? listed but that should be 17-32 IIRC). Every weapon that has less than max spare ammo will add an amount in that range each time you grab a clip. That is max spare, not total... so empty gun with max spare ammo doesn't pick up any.

There are some predefined clip locations that seem to give double. And of course if you pick up power cells with full HW ammo it will refill all guns to max spare ammo immediately.

[Sylvius the Mad]

A nerf isn't exactly a penalty being imposed upon you. Especially not when applied from one game to the next.

It is if it's applied unequally. Which it was.

From a mechanical standpoint the enemies got better defenses, your weapons didn't get weaker. You are assuming that armour technology advanced at the exact same rate that weapon technology did, which is not explicitly stated by the lore meaning anything is possible.

Did assault rifles become less lethal? Did pistols?

Or was it just non-headshot sniper rifles?

Capn already demonstrated that it takes more than 1 shot to kill targets in ME1 even with the HMWSR X, other than with Assassinate which has a lengthy cooldown and would need to be compared to something in ME2 that gives a damage boost like Tactical Cloak or Adrenaline Rush.

Capn demonstrated that it takes more than 1 shot to kill husks, which are fairly durable enemies. Geth troopers can absolutely be one-shotted.

but the point is that Mass Effect 2 does not penalize you for getting a body shot. You do not suffer damage loss for doing so, meaning by definition there is no penalty. Rebalancing from the previous game isn't actually a penalty.

Again, was the rebalance applied equally?

The lore makes sense when you look at it. I find that most people either misunderstand something, or feel that 2x Frictionless Materials + Marksman/Overkill giving you infinite amounts of fire was something that was actually canon rather than a poorly balanced game mechanic.

If it was in the game, it was canon.

And I didn't even use 2x frictionless materials, and we're talking about sniper rifles, not pistols or assault rifles.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Right, but once you drop the rate of fire you have obviously dropped the rate of fire.

Assassination isn't a strawman. You claimed that ME1 allows you to one-shot a host of enemies with sniper rifles, or at the very least you are killing them all much faster with the SRs in that game than in ME2.

The only way to one-shot even basic enemies is with Assassination. If you are one-shotting them otherwise, post up the specific circumstances. What is the rate of fire you are using for feathering? You said these things were demonstrable, so please demonstrate them.

HMWSR VII and X are essentially the best case ME1 weapons. The only way to fire them rapidly and forever is with dual Frictionless mods. The reason I didn't test dual frictionless at Level 48 was because my Shep hadn't even acquired two yet. Lowest Frictionless is rank VII which does not even have a chance to drop before Shepard is Level 37. You can't get HMWSR X until Level 50 with the Rich achievement. These are end game items. If it is really a mid-late game rate of fire party you want then ME2 has the Viper.

HMWSR VII with Frictionless / Scram needs to drop to something like 25 shots a minute to avoid actually overheating. That setup takes 3 shots with Shredder VII to kill a level 48 Husk... which means the cycle is still ~7 seconds. Can I kill a ME2 Husk with a rifle in faster than 7 seconds past midgame (Level 24)? Almost certainly.

Each Frictionless you add drops damage per shot ~15-20% compared to Rail Extension or Scram, so everything higher than basic tier enemies are going to start accumulating extra shots to kill. Do you want absolute ROF (highest average is basically 60 in ME1 running dual frictionless), or a little less and maybe kill a mid-tier in two shots?


The lore is the lore, and it is consistent with itself. The lore doesn't mention logistic problems, so they must not be a problem.

There is a finite number of thermal clips in the galaxy.

The thermal clips are not evenly distributed through the galaxy.

Therefore, there must be places in the galaxy with insufficient thermal clips.

And your conclusion is absurd. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That there's no mention of something does not demonstrate that it doesn't exist. Think about that for a moment. That reasoning is insane.

[capn233]

There is a finite number of thermal clips in the galaxy.

The thermal clips are not evenly distributed through the galaxy.

Therefore, there must be places in the galaxy with insufficient thermal clips.

And your conclusion is absurd. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That there's no mention of something does not demonstrate that it doesn't exist. Think about that for a moment. That reasoning is insane.

 

What is it you are arguing now exactly?

 

There isn't any evidence explicitly stated in the codex that thermal clips are a logistical problem.  And given the in game evidence, they must be nearly ubiquitous.

 

How is it logical to invent your own lore that isn't supported via the codex, and when pointed out that there isn't any evidence, just say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"

 

In the same vein, I could claim Asari can actually fly, they just choose not to.  They didn't bother to put this fact in the codex because they were tired of typing at the time.

[Cyonan]

It is if it's applied unequally. Which it was.
Did assault rifles become less lethal? Did pistols?

Or was it just non-headshot sniper rifles?

 

It's funny how your first line claims it was "applied unequally" and then you proceed to ask me if it was applied equally or not.

 

Weapons became less lethal for body shots across the board because of the introduction of headshots.

 

Capn demonstrated that it takes more than 1 shot to kill husks, which are fairly durable enemies. Geth troopers can absolutely be one-shotted.

 

His post says "Can one-shot Geth Trooper with Advanced Assassinate.  Otherwise 2 normal shots then overheat.  Will be three shots if you pause and geth hits shield boost.".

 

That was with the best sniper rifle in the game and it required a 45 second cooldown to actually 1 shot Geth Troopers. Even then I just tested it on Mordin's recruitment mission in ME2, and I was able to 1 shot Vorcha with a body shot using a Mantis.

 

If it was in the game, it was canon.

And I didn't even use 2x frictionless materials, and we're talking about sniper rifles, not pistols or assault rifles.

 

You already said numbers are an abstraction.

 

The numbers of such a setup were what I called poorly balanced, not the existence of the setup itself.

[KaiserShep]

There is a finite number of thermal clips in the galaxy.

The thermal clips are not evenly distributed through the galaxy.

Therefore, there must be places in the galaxy with insufficient thermal clips.

And your conclusion is absurd. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That there's no mention of something does not demonstrate that it doesn't exist. Think about that for a moment. That reasoning is insane.

 

I'm more concerned with the fact that someone is wiring my PC money every time she kills someone. 

[capn233]

His post says "Can one-shot Geth Trooper with Advanced Assassinate.  Otherwise 2 normal shots then overheat.  Will be three shots if you pause and geth hits shield boost.".

 

That was with the best sniper rifle in the game and it required a 45 second cooldown to actually 1 shot Geth Troopers. Even then I just tested it on Mordin's recruitment mission in ME2, and I was able to 1 shot Vorcha with a body shot using a Mantis.

 

Right, this was an HMWSR X on an Adept, Insanity.  I could have had 4% more rifle damage on standard shots if I got to Master Assassination, but that doesn't do much.  Clearly Commando Soldier or Infiltrator would also have a bit more rifle damage. Dual Rail Extension VII's would be +12% compared to dual Scram IX, but with double the heat penalty.

 

None of this should be able to double SR damage though as the first shot leaves a little less than 50% of the total hp (basically drops shields and takes off a small amount of health).

 

edit:  Also fwiw my Level 18 Sentinel w/ SR training on DCC could two-shot Insanity ME2 Husks with the Mantis without a headshot... Although to be completely transparent if not mixing in a headshot you need a legshot for the shot against health.

 

edit2:

 

I loaded up an ME1 Infiltrator, he was Level 56 on the Citadel.  Maxed Commando, maxed Spectre, maxed Snipers.  Slapped in dual Rail VII in the HMWSR X with Tungsten VII.  This is about as much rifle damage as you should be able to get (think Soldier can get 9% more though).  Didn't one-shot a trooper, he had about a third of his health left.  Also of course this setup overheats after every shot.

 

If someone has a save right at level 50 and takes this sort of setup against a Trooper it might be interesting, as that is basically the most favorable condition you could get.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In the same vein, I could claim Asari can actually fly, they just choose not to. They didn't bother to put this fact in the codex because they were tired of typing at the time.

No. You shouldn't claim that they can't fly, but there's no reason to believe that they do.

My suppositions regarding the clips relied on the assumptions I listed (eg. the finite supply), which I expect are fairly uncontroversial.

Do you think the supply of thermal clips isn't finite?

[grumpymooselion]

I certainly like RPGs, and there certainly aren't ever enough of them around, by my measure. Real RPGs, not Hack and Slash games with RPG elements tacked upon them. That said, Action RPGs have their place too, and I think the ME series has tried to find a balance between action and RPG mechanics. Maybe a little too lite on the RPG elements for my taste, but that is just my taste. Being a good game can be enough, but, I still have preferences beyond that, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't shelter a small, slim and slender hope for a little more RPG in my ME again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's funny how your first line claims it was "applied unequally" and then you proceed to ask me if it was applied equally or not.

The question is an invitation to offer contrary evidence.

That someone asks a question tells us nothing about whether that person knows the answer.

Weapons became less lethal for body shots across the board because of the introduction of headshots.

So you concede that the weapons with the thermal clips (ME2 weapons) are more difficult to use effectively that the weapons that don't (ME1 weapons).

This has been my point all along. The thermal clips make the weapons less effective.

His post says "Can one-shot Geth Trooper with Advanced Assassinate. Otherwise 2 normal shots then overheat. Will be three shots if you pause and geth hits shield boost.".

That was with the best sniper rifle in the game and it required a 45 second cooldown to actually 1 shot Geth Troopers. Even then I just tested it on Mordin's recruitment mission in ME2, and I was able to 1 shot Vorcha with a body shot using a Mantis.

The test was done on Insanity.

I don't play on Insanity. On Normal, I was one-shotting opponents all over.

But not in ME2.

You already said numbers are an abstraction.

Yes. The numerical values, in isolation, mean nothing.

But taken together, they describe the game world's physical reality.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'm more concerned with the fact that someone is wiring my PC money every time she kills someone.

Why? That's exactly how the real world works...

[capn233]

No. You shouldn't claim that they can't fly, but there's no reason to believe that they do.

 

Why isn't there a reason to believe this?  Are you saying because they don't in game?  Obviously if they flew in game then my claim would be false because that wouldn't be compatible with "they just choose not to."

[Cyonan]

So you concede that the weapons with the thermal clips (ME2 weapons) are more difficult to use effectively that the weapons that don't (ME1 weapons).

This has been my point all along. The thermal clips make the weapons less effective.

 

But they aren't less effective. Being more difficult to use effectively doesn't make a thing less effective if when used well it is more effective.

 

A gun with full body shots wont kill a single target as quickly, but with headshots or against multiple targets the thermal clips are more effective.

 

The lore also doesn't state the reduced lethality against a single target is the result of the thermal clips. As I said, it is equally as reasonable to assume that armour/kinetic barrier technology advanced to the point where most sniper rifles don't do as much relative damage anymore.

 

Mass Effect 1 didn't have armour plating as its own hit point bar, so it's very clear that some major advancements have been made in defensive technology in the 2 years Shep was MIA.

 

The test was done on Insanity.

I don't play on Insanity. On Normal, I was one-shotting opponents all over.

But not in ME2.

 

 

My test on the other hand was done on Normal.

 

and I was 1 shotting opponents with body shots in Mass Effect 2. Did you keep your sniper rifle fully upgraded?

 

Yes. The numerical values, in isolation, mean nothing.

But taken together, they describe the game world's physical reality.

 

And the numbers were tuned to be too high.

 

I'm not saying 2xFM for sustained fire shouldn't be a thing. I'm saying the numbers shouldn't have been tuned as highly as they were.

 

It's beyond stupid to refuse to balance your game simply because "it made it into the game and it's lore now". It needed a change because it was too powerful in ME1.

[capn233]

I don't play on Insanity. On Normal, I was one-shotting opponents all over.

 

Hmmm... that's fine, but I don't know why this didn't work in ME2 then, at least not for standard mooks.

 

Normal difficulty scaling ranges from ~1.34 to 0.73 damage multiplier (enemy is scaled via damage reduction in ME2 instead of hit point range, technically), so it is right at about 1x in the middle of the game.  Most mooks have less than the 263 pts of damage the Mantis should be inflicting with a body shot with no other bonus.  Usual mook health is 200, husk is 300, Turians/Asari are 250.

 

On a class without weapon damage bonus, at level 30 a 5/5 Mantis should do (with scaling) ~ 263.1*(1.5)*0.73 = 288 damage to targets. *edit: assuming not further than 30m

[dreamgazer]