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Do you want MEA to be a good RPG or is a good game with RPG elements enough


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#851
Sylvius the Mad

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There's a reason why it matters when it comes to things like what the game will focus on in development.

If BioWare wants the game to be action oriented, they're far less likely to spend the time needed to implement the RPG features that you want.

The opinion of the forums, even in the unlikely event the majority of us could actually agree on something, is still exceedingly unlikely to actually change BioWare's entire design approach to the game when it comes to something this significant.

I agree.

Which, again, suggests that's not my objective.

#852
Cyonan

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I agree.

Which, again, suggests that's not my objective.

 

You've said your objective is to shift the wants of the average player to increase the cost of not being a RPG.

 

This is also extremely unlikely to happen as a result of anything said on these forums due to the exceedingly small percentage of the fanbase that actually visits these forums, either as a poster or as a lurker.



#853
Il Divo

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It's been a terrible RPG, and getting worse with every installment.

They may well be good games, but they've been dreadful RPGs (especially ME2 and ME3).

 

Personally, I'm more than satisfied with that. 

 

It might not make the label-focused players and strict RPG players happy, but for more general/broad players, that's a pretty good goal. 



#854
Sylvius the Mad

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Personally, I'm more than satisfied with that.

It might not make the label-focused players and strict RPG players happy, but for more general/broad players, that's a pretty good goal.

I don't care about the label. I care whether they offer gameplay I enjoy, and they don't. I enjoy roleplaying, which is something I don't get to do in ME2 or ME3.

The label is just shorthand.

#855
Sylvius the Mad

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You've said your objective is to shift the wants of the average player to increase the cost of not being a RPG.

That is one of my objectives, yes. That one works better on the Dragon Age forum, though, because those games are less far removed from the design I advance.

I also try to make a more RPG approach to both design and play look more attractive or reasonable to players. I suggest approaches to gameplay players may not have considered.

These two things together help me move the margins of public opinion. By moving the margins, I move the median, and BioWare targets the median.

This is also extremely unlikely to happen as a result of anything said on these forums due to the exceedingly small percentage of the fanbase that actually visits these forums, either as a poster or as a lurker.

Margins.

#856
Il Divo

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I don't care about the label. I care whether they offer gameplay I enjoy, and they don't. I enjoy roleplaying, which is something I don't get to do in ME2 or ME3.

The label is just shorthand.

 

Being honest here: Bioware is never going to meet you on this point. Not intentionally, at any rate. In this instance, you haven't really demonstrated enough of an understanding of what shooter fans enjoy to even propose any mutually beneficial styles of play. Your play style is simply too esoteric relative to the average consumer, especially given your own stance on ME1 somehow not being a shooter, if I'm recalling your earlier posts correctly. 



#857
Cyonan

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That is one of my objectives, yes. That one works better on the Dragon Age forum, though, because those games are less far removed from the design I advance.

I also try to make a more RPG approach to both design and play look more attractive or reasonable to players. I suggest approaches to gameplay players may not have considered.

These two things together help me move the margins of public opinion. By moving the margins, I move the median, and BioWare targets the median.
Margins.

 

The people who visit these forums make up less than 1% of the total playerbase of Mass Effect.

 

You aren't shifting the margins of public opinion as a whole by posting here. You aren't even reaching anywhere remotely close to most of the public by posting here, much less shifting their opinions.


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#858
nfi42

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That is one of my objectives, yes. That one works better on the Dragon Age forum, though, because those games are less far removed from the design I advance.

I also try to make a more RPG approach to both design and play look more attractive or reasonable to players. I suggest approaches to gameplay players may not have considered.

These two things together help me move the margins of public opinion. By moving the margins, I move the median, and BioWare targets the median.
Margins.

 

I'm curious if the are video games that you do enjoy that don't strictly fit in your ideal game design?



#859
Sylvius the Mad

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I'm curious if the are video games that you do enjoy that don't strictly fit in your ideal game design?

My game design requirements allow a ton of variety. Most turn-based strategy games meet my standard. Football Manager meets my standard (though I'm not a fan of association football, so I don't enjoy it).

I do enjoy racing games. They don't meet my standard, but I am very good at racing games, so my skill isn't relevant to my gameplay.

The thing that really bothers me in games is when they sacrifice my agency in order to tell me a story. That's what was fundamentally wrong with ME3 (and Fallout 4, to be honest).

BioWare's RPGs do tend to have strong stories, but what makes most of them work for me in a way that ME3 doesn't is that the stories don't interfere. They're something I can play amidst, rather than things that stop me from playing.

The interrupts introduced in ME2 genuinely confused me, because they didn't seem to contribute to the story at all, but they did interfere with my roleplaying, so the presence of the interrupt system there seemed malicious. It did harm to achieve an incredibly small and poorly executed benefit.
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#860
straykat

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The thing that really bothers me in games is when they sacrifice my agency in order to tell me a story. That's what was fundamentally wrong with ME3 (and Fallout 4, to be honest).

 

I guess it's all about what expectations I set. I don't expect much different from ME. But Fallout is a little surprising (although they've been doing that since they picked up the franchise. It's not as open as TES).



#861
nfi42

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My game design requirements allow a ton of variety. Most turn-based strategy games meet my standard. Football Manager meets my standard (though I'm not a fan of association football, so I don't enjoy it).

I do enjoy racing games. They don't meet my standard, but I am very good at racing games, so my skill isn't relevant to my gameplay.

The thing that really bothers me in games is when they sacrifice my agency in order to tell me a story. That's what was fundamentally wrong with ME3 (and Fallout 4, to be honest).

BioWare's RPGs do tend to have strong stories, but what makes most of them work for me in a way that ME3 doesn't is that the stories don't interfere. They're something I can play amidst, rather than things that stop me from playing.

The interrupts introduced in ME2 genuinely confused me, because they didn't seem to contribute to the story at all, but they did interfere with my roleplaying, so the presence of the interrupt system there seemed malicious. It did harm to achieve an incredibly small and poorly executed benefit.

 

Whereas to me,  story telling and real time action are a strength of the video game medium.  I can also enjoy turn based games.

 

Interrupts did nothing for me either.



#862
Sylvius the Mad

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The people who visit these forums make up less than 1% of the total playerbase of Mass Effect.

You aren't shifting the margins of public opinion as a whole by posting here. You aren't even reaching anywhere remotely close to most of the public by posting here, much less shifting their opinions.

I don't need to persuade many people to move margins. That's what makes them margins.

#863
Sylvius the Mad

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Whereas to me, story telling and real time action are a strength of the video game medium. I can also enjoy turn based games.

Interrupts did nothing for me either.

Back when there was a clear distinction between video games and computer games, I didn't play video games at all. I was strictly a computer gamer.

I suppose I still am.

#864
Sylvius the Mad

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I guess it's all about what expectations I set. I don't expect much different from ME. But Fallout is a little surprising (although they've been doing that since they picked up the franchise. It's not as open as TES).

ME3 completely met my expectations. I expected I wouldn't like it, and I didn't.

That I expected that outcome doesn't make me any happier about it.

#865
straykat

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ME3 completely met my expectations. I expected I wouldn't like it, and I didn't.

That I expected that outcome doesn't make me any happier about it.

 

Expect more of the same, I think. Just different story.

 

Personally, I make adjustments based on this, but I won't hold it against you if you don't want to. We like what we like. What I don't understand is why you're expecting much of a change. There are games that do far better at what you want.


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#866
Cyonan

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I don't need to persuade many people to move margins. That's what makes them margins.

 

The real end goal here is to move the median however as you said. Moving the margins is just a means to an end.

 

and you don't move the median enough to get BioWare to change how they're making the game by making extremely slight shifts in the margin.

 

I still wonder why you haven't just accepted that Mass Effect clearly is not a game for you and move on. That's what any logical person would do when they run into a game series repeatedly making games they dislike.


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#867
nfi42

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Back when there was a clear distinction between video games and computer games, I didn't play video games at all. I was strictly a computer gamer.

I suppose I still am.

 

I use the terms interchangeably and in this case to differentiate them from tabletop games.



#868
Sylvius the Mad

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I still wonder why you haven't just accepted that Mass Effect clearly is not a game for you and move on. That's what any logical person would do when they run into a game series repeatedly making games they dislike.

I have. I gave up on Mass Effect after ME2.

#869
Sylvius the Mad

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I use the terms interchangeably and in this case to differentiate them from tabletop games.

And that makes sense. Of the two, video games have come to dominate the market.

But when looking at CRPGs, I'd be far less interested in a game decended from Dragon Quest than I would one decended from Ultima IV.

#870
Sylvius the Mad

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Expect more of the same, I think. Just different story.

Personally, I make adjustments based on this, but I won't hold it against you if you don't want to. We like what we like. What I don't understand is why you're expecting much of a change. There are games that do far better at what you want.

ME3 already mostly solved ME2's ammo issue. My favourite part of ME1 was the exploration, and that's coming back in MEA. And DAI demonstrated that it is possible to implement the voice+paraphrase in a way that isn't routinely character-breaking.

There are many reasons to expect MEA to be a significantly better CRPG, by my standards, than ME2 and ME3 were.

Though, if they scrap the pause-to-aim mechanic, I won't touch it.
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#871
SmilesJA

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I just want it to be a good game.


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#872
Mikael_Sebastia

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Think about what you're doing when you're roleplaying. You're looking at the game world from an in-character perspective, and you're making that character's decisions for him or her.

This requires the player, moment-to-moment, be experiencing the character's mental state. When an in-game events occurs, what matters is not the player's impression of it, but the character's. So I generally favour game systems that allow that.

For us to roleplay a character, we need to know that character's mind. His thoughts and background and motivation can only be unknown to us if they are also unknown to him. We have to know what the character knows in order to be able to make his decisions.

Snip
 

 

Alright. I wrote a response couple days ago, but I've been pondering whether to post it at all, as it got humongous in the length and detail. My intellect, erudition and writing skills are not simply enough to compress this, but I've decided to post it under the spoiler (as not to derail the thread). Even at that I didn't cover everything, as these discussions move way too fast for me. I might return to that, if I have time later on.

 

Disclaimer, unless you are into Wall of Texts about a tabletop RPG theory, RPG history and other BS, do not read it.

 

Spoiler

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#873
Sylvius the Mad

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Alright. I wrote a response couple days ago, but I've been pondering whether to post it at all, as it got humongous in the length and detail. My intellect, erudition and writing skills are not simply enough to compress this, but I've decided to post it under the spoiler (as not to derail the thread). Even at that I didn't cover everything, as these discussions move way too fast for me. I might return to that, if I have time later on.

-snip excellent content-

I thank you for posting it.

Your description of my approah seems accurate. I am trying to deconstruct RPGs to find out what makes them RPGs, and then reconstruct them in a way that avoids the dissonance you describe.

Calling my approach essentialism is entirely fair.

I didn't think I was being particularly opaque. I was hoping people would challenge my axioms. All my extrapolation was supposed to show the consequences of those axioms. If different axioms were presented, I would do the same thing, in an attempt to illustrate what the gameplay consequences of those axioms would be.

While I've never heard of immersionism, the narrativist-gamist-simulationist trichotomy is one with which I am quite familiar, and I have often called myself a simulationist. Mostly in regard to Obsidian games, because Josh Sawyer has explicitly called himself a gamist designer (which I dislike).

Based on your description, immersionism would seem to be complementary with simulationist design (and incompatible with gamist design). An immersive game makes a better simulation, because it discourages metagaming on the part of the players, and a simulation is more immersive because the in-game events abide by in-game rules, thus maintaining the coherence of the setting.

But going back to that essentialism point, if RPG is to be a meaningful label, it needs to mean something. I'm advancing an idea about wha it might be. The responses, however, tend to deny that RPG is a meaningful label. But that doesn't help. Maybe it isn't, but it could be.

It's extremely rare that someone will respond, as you have, with actual ideas about what RPG might mean.

Regarding those instructions in game manuals about how to play, I interpret those as broad suggestions which attempt to make the games more broadly accessible to players by legitimizing whatever approach they would prefer. That's good game design. AD&D could easily be played in either a simulationist or narrativist fashion, and it did contain many gamist elements (many of which were still compatible with the other styles of play).

Ideally, I'd like CRPGs to do the same thing. It would be great if we could play them as games, or narratives, or simulations as we saw fit. But to do that, the game systems need to be compatible with each approach.

Really, this would be a good use for difficulty settings. ME3 hinted at this possibility with action mode (pure gamism) and story mode (pure narrativism).

Also, thanks for the MERP reference. I read the MERP rules many years ago, but I never got to play. It sounded like a great system.

I've read many more rule systems than I've played. I can see how reading the rules in isolation could push me toward a simulationist understanding of those systems.
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#874
Iakus

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Being honest here: Bioware is never going to meet you on this point. Not intentionally, at any rate. In this instance, you haven't really demonstrated enough of an understanding of what shooter fans enjoy to even propose any mutually beneficial styles of play. Your play style is simply too esoteric relative to the average consumer, especially given your own stance on ME1 somehow not being a shooter, if I'm recalling your earlier posts correctly. 

Around the time of ME2, I was convinced that a good shooter/RPG hybrid was possible.  It was just a matter of finding the proper balance.

 

ME3 left me wondering if I had been wrong all along.


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#875
Elhanan

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Around the time of ME2, I was convinced that a good shooter/RPG hybrid was possible.  It was just a matter of finding the proper balance.
 
ME3 left me wondering if I had been wrong all along.


Just the opposite for me. I quit the series after ME2, but returned when CP gave me some recommendations and tips for ME3, and tried it late post-release. Much prefer ME3 to the prior title, though it is still not as enjoyable as some other Bioware titles due to interrupts, lengthy cut-scenes, etc.