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Do you want MEA to be a good RPG or is a good game with RPG elements enough


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#876
RoboticWater

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Around the time of ME2, I was convinced that a good shooter/RPG hybrid was possible.  It was just a matter of finding the proper balance.

 

ME3 left me wondering if I had been wrong all along.

What did ME3 do that made you doubt yourself? Obviously its story is absolute nonsense, but writing quality in RPG is largely independent of mechanical depth. And from a purely mechanical standpoint, I thought ME3 was a step in the right direction. The leveling was expanded, weapon customization was re-implemented, companions had more ambient dialog, etc. If ME:A actually offers a degree of depth with its exploration, then I can only imagine the RPG features will be improved and expanded.

 

The Mass Effect series has been circling around the "perfect" formula for a shooter/RPG hybrid for a while, and I think the series only ever got closer to its mark. ME2 may have approached that target from opposite side of the slope, but if BioWare continue to refine their formula in the way they have been (and don't lose themselves in scope issues again), I'm sure they'll reach intended destination.

 

Besides, Mass Effect shouldn't be the deciding vote as to whether a shooter/RPG hybrid is possible. We already know it's possible. Stealth shooters have shown us as much. Deus Ex and Dishonored care about as much as Mass Effect when it comes to macro (narrative) choice and consequence, yet manage to promote player freedom on a micro scale as well. The only thing that the stealth genre hasn't quite nailed yet is the breadth of tone that RPG offer. Right now, the genre is, understandably, a bit too attached to the notion of sneaking and infiltration. If the same mechanical systems of Hitman or Metal Gear Solid were transplanted into a more generalized narrative (i.e. not just espionage), then the roleplaying freedom would be about as robust as most RPG.

 

I've also yet to see a stealth shooter with the same companion structure as your average RPG, but I doubt that's because of any technical restrictions of the genre.


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#877
Iakus

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What did ME3 do that made you doubt yourself? Obviously its story is absolute nonsense, but writing quality in RPG is largely independent of mechanical depth. And from a purely mechanical standpoint, I thought ME3 was a step in the right direction. The leveling was expanded, weapon customization was re-implemented, companions had more ambient dialog, etc. If ME:A actually offers a degree of depth with its exploration, then I can only imagine the RPG features will be improved and expanded.

Loads and loads of autodialogue with extremely limited (and binary) dialogue options

 

The ending, of course, which is a red, green, and blue garbage fire.

 

A skill system barely more inspired than ME2's 

 

"Follow the arrows" quests. (we'll see what MEA does for "exploration" this time).  Not to mention scanning side quests so dull they make gathering ram meat look exciting.

 

banter and the ability to mod weapons (put back in the game after being gutted in ME2) were the only real improvements.   



#878
AlanC9

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What does any of that have to do with gameplay mechanics? Except weapon modding, which was an improvement.

#879
Sylvius the Mad

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What does any of that have to do with gameplay mechanics? Except weapon modding, which was an improvement.

Every system in the game is a gameplay mechanic.
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#880
RoboticWater

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Loads and loads of autodialogue with extremely limited (and binary) dialogue options
 
The ending, of course, which is a red, green, and blue garbage fire.
 
"Follow the arrows" quests. (we'll see what MEA does for "exploration" this time).  Not to mention scanning side quests so dull they make gathering ram meat look exciting.

I have to imagine that these things come down to the setting and writing. Setting the game during a presumably time sensitive war defined the tone of the game's design. It must hard to justify making meticulous and exploratory quests when the enemy is right in front of us with an army. The atmosphere just isn't conducive of the slower paced design necessary for deep RPG questing, and I don't think Mass Effect's writers were capable of writing themselves out of that box (not too many would be). That's why I think the move to Andromeda is going to be a positive change. If BioWare sets the tone correctly from the very beginning, then it's more likely that the rest of the mechanics we want will fall into place naturally. 

 

If The Witcher 3 proves anything, it's that your game can have a bunch of repetitively designed quests as long as they have a good narrative hook and a decent amount of production value put into them. BioWare has the production value, so I wouldn't be too worried there I think what happened in Mass Effect was a marked decrease in mystery as the series went on. Mass Effect was always a fairly straightforward universe. It's certainly no Planescape: Torment, which has has a setting so esoteric that just about every task is inherently fascinating, and it never tried to go for that Star Trek "philosophical sci-fi topic of the week." This leaves the writers in an awkward position because grabbing those interesting narrative hooks in Mass Effect's style of universe isn't so easy. BioWare tried to supplement their setting with political drama, but I don't think they were entirely up to the task.

 

Again, setting is absolutely instrumental in the design of a game. It's instrumental in every media, but it might not seem as intuitive to think that a setting can have such an impact on gameplay. I think we're guaranteed a kind of domino effect from ME:A's focus on exploration and a strange new galaxy.

 

banter and the ability to mod weapons (put back in the game after being gutted in ME2) were the only real improvements.

Maybe it's just me, but I never thought that banter was reduced that much between entries. Maybe I just didn't care that much because I thought ME2's companions were more interesting in general.

 

But like I said earlier, BioWare switched their approach in ME2. Rather than give us a bunch of samey weapons with all sorts of unbalanced weapon mods, they dialed back and gave us fewer, more distinctive weapons. To continue my stealth game example before: ME2's design is closer to the optimal shooter/RPG hybrid. Stealth games work because they provide the player with a limited number of distinctive tools that can result in a greater variety of gameplay options. ME1 may have had a greater number of options, but I'd argue that almost all those options are entirely artificial: in the end, the action went down the exact same way no matter what mods you slapped onto your weapon. Maybe that's just me though.
 

A skill system barely more inspired than ME2's

Mass Effect has never had a good skill system. I don't care how many slots ME1 had, Mass Effect's leveling has always been bland percentage boosts. The sequels at least merged all the minute differences into fewer, more distinguishable tiers.

 

But again, stealth games have leveling almost perfect. Take a look at Dishonored, Deus Ex, or MGS5. There's barely a single item or upgrade that doesn't serve multiple purposes and won't distinctly augment your gameplay approach (less so in MGS5, but it's still amazing how good each upgrade is given the number of them). Action games just don't mesh very well with minute stat progression. That's by design: the minute differences in gameplay come from player skill, so the progression needs to reflect that. Ideally, each level up in ME:A would provide the player some new tool or augment an existing tool for a different task, but I think I can settle for ME3's leveling which at least did it's best to offer palpable augmentations to your powers at later levels.


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#881
Degs29

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Expect more of the same, I think. Just different story.

 

That would work for me.  I found ME3 to be the best in the series, game-play wise.  It's the writing that needed some work, particularly around that ending....



#882
Rannik

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I'd like to see a continuation of the RPG combat of ME1 instead of yet another third person shooter with übergeneric mechanics.

 

But that's probably not going to happen, scrapping the combat design part and just copypasting Gears of War is far more convenient.


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#883
AlanC9

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Every system in the game is a gameplay mechanic.


The proposition was that these factors showed that RPG/shooter hybrids might be conceptually flawed. I don't see how they're related to whether the game is a shooter, an RPG, or anything else. I suppose one can try to say that a shooter/RPG hybrid must have an unacceptably limited skill system since many areas of skill are now happening on the player side, but I don't see how Iakus made that case -- I'll take ME3's skill system over ME1's any day, for pretty much the same reasons that I think DAI warrior and rogue skill trees are better than their DA:O equivalents.

#884
Sylvius the Mad

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Mass Effect has never had a good skill system.

All the more reason for us to keep asking for improvement.
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#885
RoboticWater

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All the more reason for us to keep asking for improvement.

I don't understand the point of your comment. I did ask for improvement.



#886
Sylvius the Mad

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I'll take ME3's skill system over ME1's any day, for pretty much the same reasons that I think DAI warrior and rogue skill trees are better than their DA:O equivalents.

I can see how you'd make that case for Warriors (though the loss of archery hurts), but not for Rogues. DAI don't have anything like the variety of non-combat abilities available.

Much as the games after DAO reduced Mages to damage dealers, the same thing happened with Rogues.

I don't have a strong preference among the skill systems of the ME games.

#887
Sylvius the Mad

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I don't understand the point of your comment. I did ask for improvement.

That would mean I was agreeing with you.

#888
Sylvius the Mad

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I'd like to see a continuation of the RPG combat of ME1 instead of yet another third person shooter with übergeneric mechanics.

But that's probably not going to happen, scrapping the combat design part and just copypasting Gears of War is far more convenient.

In recent years, my favourite RPG combat with guns is from Shadowrun Returns.

So I'm way out of my depth in an ME environment.

#889
AlanC9

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I can see how you'd make that case for Warriors (though the loss of archery hurts), but not for Rogues. DAI don't have anything like the variety of non-combat abilities available.


Meaning traps and locks?

My main problem with ME1 was that characters tend to converge on an identical template after level 30 or so, bonus powers excepted. Lower levels weren't all that great, either, since going for power unlocks was a clear winner.

#890
Sylvius the Mad

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Meaning traps and locks?

And stealth, which was only a useful non-combat tool in DAO.

My main problem with ME1 was that characters tend to converge on an identical template after level 30 or so, bonus powers excepted. Lower levels weren't all that great, either, since going for power unlocks was a clear winner.

ME1 failed in a lot of ways.

ME2 and ME3 failed in different ways.

#891
Snorka

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*BUMP*

 

The Mass Effect trilogy has some nice RPG elements, but it won't be enough to hold a open world style of game that is Andromeda.

The current trend is to add puzzles and mini games as filler for large areas, but solid RPG mechanics will hold a game brilliantly if giving the chance.

 

The best exploration RPG i have ever played is the original Baldur's Gate, did it have puzzles in every map? hell no! did it ever feel like a grind? no! i always wondered why i liked it so much, I believe it was because of the character and party progression through exploration that made it so rewarding.

 

Each map on it's own did not have much content, but was beautiful and you knew that some where on that map would be a +1 sword or armour and it was ALWAYS something useful!!! if you didn't need that item someone in the party did!  

 

So i hope MEA changes it's loot system to unique loot, example kill bad guy he drops katana+1 shotgun, this does not unlock katana shotguns for the whole squad, it's just one shotgun that you strategically give to a team member that suits your play style.

If you have 7 in your squad that has 2-5 weapon slots and 4-5 armour slots and omni tool, that's 70+ slots all up, you will always feel rewarded in finding loot because you actually need it. 



#892
Iakus

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Maybe it's just me, but I never thought that banter was reduced that much between entries. Maybe I just didn't care that much because I thought ME2's companions were more interesting in general.

 

But like I said earlier, BioWare switched their approach in ME2. Rather than give us a bunch of samey weapons with all sorts of unbalanced weapon mods, they dialed back and gave us fewer, more distinctive weapons. To continue my stealth game example before: ME2's design is closer to the optimal shooter/RPG hybrid. Stealth games work because they provide the player with a limited number of distinctive tools that can result in a greater variety of gameplay options. ME1 may have had a greater number of options, but I'd argue that almost all those options are entirely artificial: in the end, the action went down the exact same way no matter what mods you slapped onto your weapon. Maybe that's just me though.
 

Most of the characters in ME2 never even acknowledged that Shepard was gathering a team.  There's exactly one spot onteh Citadel where Garrus and Tali even talk to each other.

 

Thane's funeral in Trespasser was the only time Samara ever acknowledged Thane's existence, for example.  Heck you'd think she'd be a lot more vocal about recruiting assassins, mercenaries, and criminals, given she said she'd voice her opinion even if she was bound to obey Shepard.

 

 

 

Mass Effect has never had a good skill system. I don't care how many slots ME1 had, Mass Effect's leveling has always been bland percentage boosts. The sequels at least merged all the minute differences into fewer, more distinguishable tiers.

But again, stealth games have leveling almost perfect. Take a look at Dishonored, Deus Ex, or MGS5. There's barely a single item or upgrade that doesn't serve multiple purposes and won't distinctly augment your gameplay approach (less so in MGS5, but it's still amazing how good each upgrade is given the number of them). Action games just don't mesh very well with minute stat progression. That's by design: the minute differences in gameplay come from player skill, so the progression needs to reflect that. Ideally, each level up in ME:A would provide the player some new tool or augment an existing tool for a different task, but I think I can settle for ME3's leveling which at least did it's best to offer palpable augmentations to your powers at later levels.

Even without percentages of improvement, which I agree can be boring (like ME2's "upgrades") there are other ways to measure progress.   Rather than skill systems, how about talent unlocks.  Make powers work differently based on talents you take (the later portions of the skill trees in ME3 touches on it, but didn't go nearly far enough).  Unlock new abilities as you progress.   Like DXHR's augmentation system.