I don't care when it happens. But when it happens, can any Shepard do it? Or is there a Shepard who never gets the option because of his previous choices?
If any Shepard can do it, then that's good design.
Is that based directly on previous choices, or is it a question of whether you have enough Paragon or Renegade points to unlock the "I WIN" button?Unless I've misunderstood your discussion (I admit I have not read it closely), any Shepard who disagrees with Mordin curing the Genophage can shoot him to stop him - that's the default resolution. It is just that only some Shepard's can persuade him.
Is that based directly on previous choices, or is it a question of whether you have enough Paragon or Renegade points to unlock the "I WIN" button?
Either way, I would prefer if any Shepard could attempt to persuade him, but some Shepards would simply fail and Mordin would release the cure anyway.
But that's a different issue.
I don' t know if it requires Paragon/Renegade dialogue, but I do know that both Wrex and Eve have to be dead in order to (successfully) convince Mordin to stand down.
Is that based directly on previous choices, or is it a question of whether you have enough Paragon or Renegade points to unlock the "I WIN" button?
Either way, I would prefer if any Shepard could attempt to persuade him, but some Shepards would simply fail and Mordin would release the cure anyway.
But that's a different issue.
Is that based directly on previous choices, or is it a question of whether you have enough Paragon or Renegade points to unlock the "I WIN" button?
Either way, I would prefer if any Shepard could attempt to persuade him, but some Shepards would simply fail and Mordin would release the cure anyway.
But that's a different issue.
As far as I know you can always attempt to persuade him.
Although as noted, it requires both Wrex and Eve dead in order to actually succeed at this. Otherwise you have to shoot him to stop him from releasing the unsabotaged cure.
It seems it does require a paragon/renegade check as well on top of previous choices.
Well, in ME3 it's Reputation points that are critical. Not a great mechanism since it's a completionist check, but way better than ME2's abomination. I believe the requirements for this check are so low that any Shepard can pass them. Similar to talking down the VS on the Citadel, where almost any Shepard who's allowed to make the check will pass it; only a non-import Shepard who does almost no optional content can fail. Main plot Reputation checks seem to have been set low.Is that based directly on previous choices, or is it a question of whether you have enough Paragon or Renegade points to unlock the "I WIN" button?
Either way, I would prefer if any Shepard could attempt to persuade him, but some Shepards would simply fail and Mordin would release the cure anyway.
But that's a different issue.
I only played ME3 at release once as the ending wrecked the series for me and in that playthrough I did not try to sabotage the cure. I agree with you that the option to persuade should always be there. I can't offer insight.
Can you try to persuade him, fail, and then not shoot him (thereby effectively have him convince Shepard)?As far as I know you can always attempt to persuade him.
Although as noted, it requires both Wrex and Eve dead in order to actually succeed at this. Otherwise you have to shoot him to stop him from releasing the unsabotaged cure.
It seems it does require a paragon/renegade check as well on top of previous choices.
Can you try to persuade him, fail, and then not shoot him (thereby effectively have him convince Shepard)?
Yes. I've done it. Shepard says something like "I'm not sure I trust the krogan, but I do trust you"
Okay, so that sequence works the way I think it should.Yes. I've done it. Shepard says something like "I'm not sure I trust the krogan, but I do trust you"
Well, in ME3 it's Reputation points that are critical. Not a great mechanism since it's a completionist check, but way better than ME2's abomination. [spoilerI believe the requirements for this check are so low that any Shepard can pass them. Similar to talking down the VS on the Citadel, where almost any Shepard who's allowed to make the check will pass it; only a non-import Shepard who does almost no optional content can fail. Main plot Reputation checks seem to have been set low.
But success is dependent on previous choices, yes. Specifically, Mordin will only back down from releasing the cure if he sees current krogan leadership as hopeless, so both Wrex and Eve have to be dead. If he won't back down, any Shepard can shoot him.
Well, except that revealing the sabotage plan earlier in the game will lock out this entire interaction; it's presumed that Shepard isn't trying to sabotage the cure. But with the sabotage plan revealed to the krogan leadership, actually going through with the sabotage would be crazy anyway.[/spoiler]
(Elcor) Feigned disgust: Oh. My. Caff. He doesn't think ME3 was total garbage. He should be banned. (/Elcor) 
I honestly don't know how you guys go about checking this thoroughly how the Dialog system works. I'm so spastic, when i figured out that there was no way to avoid Tali's swan dive, i immediatetly launched ME2, imported a ME1 save and made sure, as i played, i hit all the right dialogs to keep the "tea party" going between her and Legion. (damnable system… i thought it was a good game, just wasn't thrilled with how determinitic it was with fates based on only a handful of decisions)
All roleplaying happens in your head. All of it. It consists entirely of motives and reasoning and beliefs and goals. None of that is ever visible outside that person's head, so you can make it be whatever you'd like.
There are two big problems with ME that interfere with this, however:
1. There just aren't that many opportunities to make decisions.
2. The decisions that are available are largely hidden behind obfuscatory paraphrases.
When I play a CRPG, gameplay typically consists of me choosing from among the available options the the alternatives that are consistent with my character's personality. With the paraphrases, I couldn't tell which options were consistent with my character's personality, so those weren't opportunities to make decisions. Instead, they were opportunities to guess.
Rationalization is an unforgivable failing. Reasoning should come before the decision, not after.
I don't even understand what this means. Why are you developingthe character's personality during the game?
Wait, I have a question.
Wheb Shepard points his gun at Shepard's back, did you getto choose right then whether to do that? Or were you limited by the game to do it or not based on some previous decisions the devs thought were relevant?
What it they were wrong? Wouldn't it be better if you could choose right then, in that moment? What if Shepard's motives were something different from what the devs had anticipated?
I think it would be better (and obviously so) to maximize the player's choice moment-to-moment. If the animation to point the gun exists anyway, the player should get to choose right then whether Shepard will do it.
I totally disagree. If ALL roleplaying is in your own head, then go sit under a tree and daydream through your entire role play. Role playing (i.e. playing a role) doesn't say that the actor gets to create the role from scratch. In a gaming context, it always represents a level of interaction between the "world" created by the developer, the NPCs created by the developer, the situations created by the developer, and to varying level of degrees, the limitations of the player's character. Yes, a free form RPG with textual dialogue has fewer limitation on that player character, but no RPG allows for role playing that is ALL within the player's head. When I want to make up a character all within my own head... I start with a blank sheet of paper and build that character from scratch... That's not role playing; it's writing. Role playing is an interactive exercise (fleshing out a character, individualizing that character slightly perhaps, but always working with what another author has already written/created. In all his/her iterations, Shepard always was a character first created by Bioware.
A cinematic RPG (or if you prefer a cinematic action game with RPG elements) provides a little less player agency than the free form style... BUT, the reality is that I enjoy/prefer the cinematic action game with RPG elements. I don't want it turned into a textually based free form RPG because I don't like those games as well as I like the style of game that IS Mass Effect (regardless of how you want to categorize it). I can readily role play different characters (within the limits of the story the game is trying to tell) by interacting with the situations they set up and utilizing the voice acted dialogue that's there. Sucks to be you if you can't.
Yes, I think they can improve on it... AND I don't think they have to dump voice acting and cinematics to do that.
There is only one RPG element. Roleplaying.(or if you prefer a cinematic action game with RPG elements)
The option to persuade should always be there.
Yes. Always.
This to me would be ideal. Got to fill the world with better sidequests then they've previously done.
Yeah but ME to me is more about the story so hopefully they don't sacrifice the quality of the main story for more side quests and exploration, ME2 is my favorite and I don't remember there being much to explore in that game, hopefully Bioware can find a good balance.
I'm not sure if that counts as RPG but I really hope that hub worlds (and uncharted worlds) would have many interesting things to do. In ME trilogy, hub worlds were always empty once you complete every sidequest and buy everything you need. I mean, in ME1 Citadel is a grand space station, opportunities should be limitless, yet there are only shops, a dance floor, some quasar stations and the strip-club. Noveria offered absolutely nothing, Feros was in ruins, uncharted worlds were very empty with little incentive to explore. Same thing with ME2 minus the exploration. Omega, Citadel and Illium had only shops and clubs with a couple of quests. ME3 made it slightly better with having your crew members hang around the Citadel so you could at least talk to them.
I have not yet played ME-3, but I'm wondering if the Galaxy at War Missions do this for the Citadel.
I honestly don't know how you guys go about checking this thoroughly how the Dialog system works. I'm so spastic, when i figured out that there was no way to avoid Tali's swan dive, i immediatetly launched ME2, imported a ME1 save and made sure, as i played, i hit all the right dialogs to keep the "tea party" going between her and Legion. (damnable system… i thought it was a good game, just wasn't thrilled with how determinitic it was with fates based on only a handful of decisions)
Yes. I'm asking for exactly that level of editorial control over the character or characters for whom I'm expected to make decisions.But it seems to me that you are asking for the same kind of editorial control as a writer. Because you're asking for the game to be designed in a way that does not foreclose mental states.
I have not yet played ME-3, but I'm wondering if the Galaxy at War Missions do this for the Citadel.
Well, sure, but they're sidequests. Although they always contribute and what's good about ME3 is that they spawn in groups, not all at once (like in ME1) but i meant activities aside from quests. Locations should have interesting things to do for the player even without sidequests. Some NPC that you could talk to anytime and they would have something new to say with each dialogue. Some mini-games or something like that. Maybe some group bonding activities with our crew members, be it on the Tempest, on the Ark or on hostile planet. Finding the food (different galaxy after all). Maybe our colonies get attacked from time to time and we need to defend it. Some little things like that that would be available at any time and make free-roaming interesting after you beat the story. Something different from drinking, dancing and watching asari shake their booty.
I don't see how else to make decisions that are based on a coherent character design.
Did you play Age of Pirates: Caribbean Tales? This game is basically a large sandbox with no clear path. The game doesn't hold your hand and once you have control, you can decide what you want to do: trade or smuggle, transport people or cargo or work for one of the 4 factions (fifth being the pirates). The game has a plot that is hidden behind a mystery: you've got one piece of map, then you get another piece of map, then you need (or not, your choice) to figure out the location that this map guides you to (solve a riddle) and only when you reach this destination the game advances the plot. Do you like these kind of games?
I am unfamiliar with that particular game, though I did enjoy both of Sid Meier's Pirates games, which are also sandboxes.Did you play Age of Pirates: Caribbean Tales? This game is basically a large sandbox with no clear path. The game doesn't hold your hand and once you have control, you can decide what you want to do: trade or smuggle, transport people or cargo or work for one of the 4 factions (fifth being the pirates). The game has a plot that is hidden behind a mystery: you've got one piece of map, then you get another piece of map, then you need (or not, your choice) to figure out the location that this map guides you to (solve a riddle) and only when you reach this destination the game advances the plot. Do you like these kind of games?
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