86 réponses à ce sujet

[Khrystyn]

As for inspiration, how about Star Trek, TOS or TNG

Michael Piller , Gene L. Coon, and Gene Roddenberry were such tremendous inspirations for sci-fi writers and fans, and not just for the Star Trek franchise.

 

Roddenberry's 1974 movie The Questor Tapes is a fairly unknown gem, but it was resurrected in the character of Lt. Cmdr. Data in TNG. It is such a shame that it was never released to DVD. I wrote the production company a few years ago. They said it wouldn't be done, so it is effectively lost as far as I know. I wrote to the Sci-fi channel asking that they showcase it, but they never replied.

 

Discovering and recognizing a former sci-fi character or story that is developed in a new way is like finding a special Easter egg. I hope we'll get to see such treats in Andromeda.

[In Exile]

Lovecraftian? The reapers felt lovecraftian in ME1, but that took a dive when Harbinger lost its brain in ME2 and couldn't mumble more than "this will hurt you". It then became a funny comic book character.

Huh? Sovereign was the same kind of joke as Harbinger. Worse even, because Sovereign doesn't even get a stupid plot handwave for pretending to be a bond villain and hurling insults at ants.

The closest the reapers get to Lovecraft is ME3, where they are truly unstoppable existential terrors. Shepard wins constant personal victories over them so it gets obscured for most of the game, but ME3 had a true Lovecraftian moment: Harbinger nuking Shepard without even a word. Swatting you away like a gnat is Cthulu-like. Telling you that "you exist because we allow it" is Dragonlance-level bad guy.

[Kabooooom]

Huh? Sovereign was the same kind of joke as Harbinger. Worse even, because Sovereign doesn't even get a stupid plot handwave for pretending to be a bond villain and hurling insults at ants.

The closest the reapers get to Lovecraft is ME3, where they are truly unstoppable existential terrors. Shepard wins constant personal victories over them so it gets obscured for most of the game, but ME3 had a true Lovecraftian moment: Harbinger nuking Shepard without even a word. Swatting you away like a gnat is Cthulu-like. Telling you that "you exist because we allow it" is Dragonlance-level bad guy.

I would have preferred they didn't explain their backstory with Leviathan and Starchild though. Just leave their motives as truly ancient, alien, and unknowable.

[Vortex13]

Huh? Sovereign was the same kind of joke as Harbinger. Worse even, because Sovereign doesn't even get a stupid plot handwave for pretending to be a bond villain and hurling insults at ants.

The closest the reapers get to Lovecraft is ME3, where they are truly unstoppable existential terrors. Shepard wins constant personal victories over them so it gets obscured for most of the game, but ME3 had a true Lovecraftian moment: Harbinger nuking Shepard without even a word. Swatting you away like a gnat is Cthulu-like. Telling you that "you exist because we allow it" is Dragonlance-level bad guy.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think Mass Effect needs another godzilla-like monster to go stomping around for the Lovecraftian element. What it does need though (IMO) is the sense of scale, of cosmic insignificance. 

 

BioWare shouldn't have had us gallivanting around the galaxy for starters. Sure the codex says that less than 1% of the Milky Way has been explored, but when you look at the galactic map and see the Human Alliance has borders covering 25% of the galactic disk, it tends to take away from that concept. We need to only have a small percent of the galaxy to move around in the new game. Much like that Traveller map I linked to earlier in the thread, ME:Andromeda and any other titles in the new series need to only happen in that one small speck of the galaxy. If less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored than put all of that space within 1% of the actual real estate.

 

That would be Lovecraftian. Not because of us conquering over some existential horror "beyond our comprehension", but because for all our 'human dominance' for all of the victories we win, and all the boundaries we push, we are ultimately insignificant to the greater galaxy, to a universe that is completely apathetic to our existence.

[Kabooooom]

Yeah, I don't think Mass Effect needs another godzilla-like monster to go stomping around for the Lovecraftian element. What it does need though (IMO) is the sense of scale, of cosmic insignificance.

BioWare shouldn't have had us gallivanting around the galaxy for starters. Sure the codex says that less than 1% of the Milky Way has been explored, but when you look at the galactic map and see the Human Alliance has borders covering 25% of the galactic disk, it tends to take away from that concept. We need to only have a small percent of the galaxy to move around in the new game. Much like that Traveller map I linked to earlier in the thread, ME:Andromeda and any other titles in the new series need to only happen in that one small speck of the galaxy. If less than 1% of the galaxy has been explored than put all of that space within 1% of the actual real estate.

That would be Lovecraftian. Not because of us conquering over some existential horror "beyond our comprehension", but because for all our 'human dominance' for all of the victories we win, and all the boundaries we push, we are ultimately insignificant to the greater galaxy, to a universe that is completely apathetic to our existence.

Lol, I find myself agreeing with pretty much 100% of everything you post.

And I agree with this too. The leak about the game taking place in a small subset of Andromeda was some major good news to me.

I don't think that it will exclusively take place in the Helius cluster though. I strongly suspect that at some point in the story, we will discover the equivalent of an Andromedan relay (possibly that weird original concept art), and that it will link to another star cluster, and we eventually find another which leads to another. It's a staple of Mass Effect.

But if they go that route, hopefully we only explore a small, small portion of the Andromedan network and we only get the slightest hint of a galaxy spanning civilization. In future games we could explore more of it.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Huh? Sovereign was the same kind of joke as Harbinger. Worse even, because Sovereign doesn't even get a stupid plot handwave for pretending to be a bond villain and hurling insults at ants.

The closest the reapers get to Lovecraft is ME3, where they are truly unstoppable existential terrors. Shepard wins constant personal victories over them so it gets obscured for most of the game, but ME3 had a true Lovecraftian moment: Harbinger nuking Shepard without even a word. Swatting you away like a gnat is Cthulu-like. Telling you that "you exist because we allow it" is Dragonlance-level bad guy.

I didn't get that lovecraftian feeling back in ME3, because the reapers made themselves fools in ME2. The Catalyst in ME3 further enhanced the silliness of it all. The Leviathan DLC gave them more depth, but the damage was already done.

[dreamgazer]

I would have preferred they didn't explain their backstory with Leviathan and Starchild though. Just leave their motives as truly ancient, alien, and unknowable.

All well and good, except Drew was baiting an explanation to the motives since Sovereign's speech.

If you're going to have "truly ancient, alien, and unknowable" motives, don't explain 'em at all. Nothing. Zilch.

Instead, Sovereign rambled about order over chaos, developing technology along the paths they desire, and obeying cycles of extinction.

[Iakus]

All well and good, except Drew was baiting an explanation to the motives since Sovereign's speech.

If you're going to have "truly ancient, alien, and unknowable" motives, don't explain 'em at all. Nothing. Zilch.

Instead, Sovereign rambled about order over chaos, developing technology along the paths they desire, and obeying cycles of extinction.

What do you want from us? Slaves, resources?

 

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

 

Dangit!  This spoils everything!  

[Laughing_Man]

Let's put it this way: The origins of the Xenomorphs Necromorphs from Dead Space is much more Cthulhu than the Reapers.

(if only because you simply can't defeat them, not even with giant space microphones)

[dreamgazer]

What do you want from us? Slaves, resources?

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

Dangit! This spoils everything!

Yet, we can perfectly grasp and understand the very clear bailing found in Sovereign's speech, as I mentioned. Point stands.

[Vortex13]

Let's put it this way: The origins of the Xenomorphs from Dead Space is much more Cthulhu than the Reapers.

(if only because you simply can't defeat them, not even with giant space microphones)

 

 

I believe it's Necromorphs, but yes I agree, they and the Markers were rather Lovecraftian compared to the Reapers.

 

Plus its way more concise to have your villain's motivation being "They are hungry. They are coming." than going into a 15 minute long exposition on the nature of the Reapers and the cycles. Especially when the later talks in circles and contradicts itself more than once. 

[dreamgazer]

Plus its way more concise to have your villain's motivation being "They are hungry. They are coming." than going into a 15 minute long exposition on the nature of the Reapers and the cycles.

Well, sure, but the Reapers were never like that. Not only do they speak with their "prey", they partly explain why they do what they do the very first chance they get to converse with the PC.

[Vortex13]

Well, sure, but the Reapers were never like that. Not only do they speak with their "prey", they partly explain why they do what they do the very first chance they get to converse with the PC.

 

 

Well the Necromorphs (in a way) do speak with Isaac. 

 

But I don't think the fact that the Reapers talked to Shepard automatically meant that them being eldritch abominations was instantly off the table. Sovereign was merely explaining the nature of the universe according to his perceptions to an (arguably) lesser life form.

 

Imagine if ants could talk to an ant exterminator. Just because the guy spraying the nest with insecticide is explaining things wouldn't change the fact that he is still this massive, incomprehensible monster coming to wipe out an entire population for some strange reason from the ant's perspective.  

[ddraigcoch123]

I didn't post what I had been thinking about as a possible theme because I didn't want the conversation to be just a counter to what I posted as OP... to be honest I keep getting pulled back to the name of the ship 'Tempest' and Shakespeare's play so a bit ship wrecked and lost (as much metaphorically as literally) and I do know the play is really about other things but I'm stuck with the being washed up in a strange land

 

Someone said I think about perhaps the expedition going further than intended or perhaps the plan was to send the 'volunteers' to Andromeda but it was sold as a journey to the unexplored part of the Milky Way... and then I just went back to BSG for obviousl reasons but again I agree with other comments made about not necessarily wanting a huge Reaper like nemesis or 'time bomb' and to have it more as a survival story not only against the elements but the locals

 

And yeah I think someone also said why start a thread about a storyline that hasn't been revealed but I just thought we might do some spit balling and exchanging of great story's that are out there that we might see echoes of...

 

I would love it to have the Blade Runner or cyber punk feel but that probably won't be in terms of aethetics although 800 years is long enough for things to break, get rusty and generally feel a bit run down?

[In Exile]

Well the Necromorphs (in a way) do speak with Isaac.

But I don't think the fact that the Reapers talked to Shepard automatically meant that them being eldritch abominations was instantly off the table. Sovereign was merely explaining the nature of the universe according to his perceptions to an (arguably) lesser life form.

Imagine if ants could talk to an ant exterminator. Just because the guy spraying the nest with insecticide is explaining things wouldn't change the fact that he is still this massive, incomprehensible monster coming to wipe out an entire population for some strange reason from the ant's perspective.

If an ant exterminator started talking to the ants, we would think he is a complete lunatic. That's the analogy - yelling philosophical nonsense at ants is crazytown. That's not eldritch abomination - that's guy who wears tinfoil so the aliens don't see his thoughts.

And if the ant could talk back, we wouldn't be exterminating them. Not in the way we would now - because we have moral ideas like "genocide for racist reasons is bad".

[dreamgazer]

If an ant exterminator started talking to the ants, we would think he is a complete lunatic. That's the analogy - yelling philosophical nonsense at ants is crazytown. That's not eldritch abomination - that's guy who wears tinfoil so the aliens don't see his thoughts.

Hey, I'm actually completely willing to say the Reapers are about as close to "eldritch abominations" as some sweaty dude spraying insects for a paycheck.

[Vortex13]

If an ant exterminator started talking to the ants, we would think he is a complete lunatic. That's the analogy - yelling philosophical nonsense at ants is crazytown. That's not eldritch abomination - that's guy who wears tinfoil so the aliens don't see his thoughts.

And if the ant could talk back, we wouldn't be exterminating them. Not in the way we would now - because we have moral ideas like "genocide for racist reasons is bad".

 

 

But that's the whole point.

 

If ants could talk and they asked why this massive being was killing them all with poison, and the exterminator's response about how this is his job, that the ants are nothing but pests to beings like him, how is that not still an Cthulhu-esque horror to the ants living in the hive? It's about being cosmically insignificant.

 

Now I do admit that the Sovereign was a bit too malicious in his talking down to Shepard, (like a kid with a magnifying glass, taking perverse joy out of frying the ants) but his talking to Shepard in an of itself doesn't detract from the Lovecraftian elements. 

[dreamgazer]

But that's the whole point.
 
If ants could talk and they asked why this massive being was killing them all with poison, and the exterminator's response about how this is his job, that the ants are nothing but pests to beings like him, how is that not still an Cthulhu-esque horror to the ants living in the hive? It's about being cosmically insignificant.

Because addressing the ants actually gives them a degree of cosmic significance. They'e worthwhile enough to draw such attention and explanation. Never mind that this chat with the ants would involve mentioning order over chaos, developing along desired paths, and cycles of extinction.

[In Exile]

But that's the whole point.

If ants could talk and they asked why this massive being was killing them all with poison, and the exterminator's response about how this is his job, that the ants are nothing but pests to beings like him, how is that not still an Cthulhu-esque horror to the ants living in the hive? It's about being cosmically insignificant.

Now I do admit that the Sovereign was a bit too malicious in his talking down to Shepard, (like a kid with a magnifying glass, taking perverse joy out of frying the ants) but his talking to Shepard in an of itself doesn't detract from the Lovecraftian elements.

As dreamgazer says, it's giving them signifance. But it's more than just giving them significance - it's creating a basic shared frame of moral reference. If ants could talk to us and we could understand them (and they could understand us!) then they stop being pests, and it's starts to be a genocide.

Giving the reapers lines moves them from Cthulu-like to space Hitler with superpowers.

An "externinator" IRL doesn't think of ants as people. But the very basic premise of your analogy turns ants into people by endowing them with the most foundational abilities we associate exclusively with humans: speech and sapience.

The whole point of Cthulu-like is that there is no frame of reference. There's no concept we have that even allows for an analogy. Things happen as if they were natural phenomenon embodied in a thing we identify as somehow having agency.

The very fact this is a thing you can kill at all forever removes this quality - because we understand death just fine, and killing Cthulu is a contradiction.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

I would love to see Farscape be used as a major reference (other than casting Claudia Black) and Crusade both were series that were vastly under-rated and damn good shows.  

[dreamgazer]

I would love to see Farscape be used as a major reference (other than casting Claudia Black)

*cough*

Claudia Black for Andromeda's Protagonist - Yes or No?

[Halfdan The Menace]

John Carter in a nutshell.

[SKAR]

*cough*

Claudia Black for Andromeda's Protagonist - Yes or No?

I'll pass.

[In Exile]

I would love to see Farscape be used as a major reference (other than casting Claudia Black) and Crusade both were series that were vastly under-rated and damn good shows.

Faescape is just too zany for Bioware. I mean, I think it would be brilliant to have that tone. But it's a very big switch from usual ME and kind of turns on a lot of tone shifts.

[SKAR]

Ka D'argo as a squadmate. Yeah!!!!!!