16 réponses à ce sujet

[SherryGold]

By now I've played all the origins and classes, including a rogue archer, my least favorite. I had a lot of reservations about playing a two-handed warrior because two handers tend to be frustratingly slow, but having just played a two-handed warrior on the nightmare difficulty, I think I like it even better than playing a melee rogue. It's tough going in the beginning even with the aid of dlc items. You are slow and when you miss, it really hurts. And then all the enemies seem to go for you. Morrigan had to save my MC's sorry ass with force field numerous times until Zevran and Wynne joined the team. Even then I can see rogues make far better use of mass stun (waking nightmare) and mass paralysis my mages can cast later on. I often saw Zevran finishing my MC's target while he is still in the mid swing. But but...

Since I put on everything into strength, by level 7, he can wear dragon plate armor and wield dragonbone cleaver. Level eight, he wears Night Commander's armor and with spellward and with just one expert dwemer rune, he gets the maximum magic protection the game will allow. Give him a lifeward ring and he makes a far better tank than any S&S warrior, plus the amount of damage he can deal at the later stage of game is just amazing. With both mages casting haste and Zevran quickly finishing off whatever my MC and the mages started, you get a ridiculously awesome team. By the end game, Zevran was only 1% higher in overall party damage contribution than the warden and they were equal partners in damage contribution, because the sheer amount of damage the warden can inflict with each swing. (It does prove that rogues are the highest damage dealers though since Zevran missed at least six or seven levels of fighting the Warden was in)

So, which class do you prefer for your MC? Two handed warrior or a melee rogue?

 

[capn233]

2H overall.  Part of that is just because there is a bit more management involved, so it feels like I am doing more.  Melee rogue is more about using a stun then autoattacking, with a few DW sweeps thrown in it seems like.

 

DW Rogue kills trash mobs faster, the advantage of 2H is in fights where the enemy has the potential to disable the player with knockdowns or stuns.  For instance, 2H is probably a little better against ogres unless the rogue can make sure the target is completely locked down with paralysis runes, poison and stuns.

 

A couple things that are helpful early with hitrate is to pick up Precise Striking and then turn it on after you use a few talents (after you get Deathblow, you can potentially leave it on all the time).  Also once you get Wynne you can set her to buff you with Heroic Offense, and later Haste for swing speed.

[Deadly dwarf]

Hmmm....I suppose I just don't specialize to the degree that others do.  I prefer two-hand rogue over warrior because of all the additional skills you get.  But I don't just focus on dual-wield or rogue abilities.  I also go for archery points as well.  Sometimes you want to keep your distance...  For that matter, all my warriors carry a crossbow as a secondary weapon as well though I have them put in no more than one or two archery skills.

[SherryGold]

2H overall.  Part of that is just because there is a bit more management involved, so it feels like I am doing more.  Melee rogue is more about using a stun then autoattacking, with a few DW sweeps thrown in it seems like.

 

DW Rogue kills trash mobs faster, the advantage of 2H is in fights where the enemy has the potential to disable the player with knockdowns or stuns.  For instance, 2H is probably a little better against ogres unless the rogue can make sure the target is completely locked down with paralysis runes, poison and stuns.

 

A couple things that are helpful early with hitrate is to pick up Precise Striking and then turn it on after you use a few talents (after you get Deathblow, you can potentially leave it on all the time).  Also once you get Wynne you can set her to buff you with Heroic Offense, and later Haste for swing speed.

Yes, I must say I became a big fan of indomitable, especially during the Denerim quests just before the Landsmeet, when the archers spam scattershots. (During this period, Morrigan's priority changes and the first thing in her tactic is to send archers to sleep) The only thing about this build is it relies more heavily on talents than melee rogues and I usually have him wear warden commanders boots + Andruil's Blessing. You still need Wynne in the team to rejuvenate their stamina + to cast haste. Otherwise, even with all the willpower boosting items (spellward, dragonbone cleaver, and the Night Commander's armor), indomitable may come off. I have at least three passive talents activated for the warden at all times - rally, indomitable and threaten. I tend to insist on giving riposte and combat stealth to my melee rogues asap to take care of enemy mages, but other than that not really bothered by any other active DW talent. Passive talents and paralysis runes seem more important for them (and of course any item that increases backstab/critical strike damage).

[SherryGold]

Hmmm....I suppose I just don't specialize to the degree that others do.  I prefer two-hand rogue over warrior because of all the additional skills you get.  But I don't just focus on dual-wield or rogue abilities.  I also go for archery points as well.  Sometimes you want to keep your distance...  For that matter, all my warriors carry a crossbow as a secondary weapon as well though I have them put in no more than one or two archery skills.

My melee rogues are mostly dex build and can do reasonably good damage with bows without any active talent. I usually start to give Zevran one row of archery talents once he reaches level 19 or so, just so that he can have a go at the arch demon when you can't get closer to it. I was actually amazed that he did more damage with his arrow of slaying than Leliana with hers since she gets aim and master archery unlocked, though it may be because Leliana only has a go at the elite orge while Zevran gets to shoot the arch demon. Only four times during the entire game, I tell my melee rogues or warriors use a bow. But yes, I like giving them good bows as well as best daggers available.

[capn233]

What is Leliana's second spec in that instance, and is she running Song of Courage?

 

edit: ah if it is just on arrow of slaying, did Zevran have more critical damage bonus?

[SherryGold]

What is Leliana's second spec in that instance, and is she running Song of Courage?

 

edit: ah if it is just on arrow of slaying, did Zevran have more critical damage bonus?

Yes, she was. Zevran had the dlc bow, and I didn't do Lel's personal quest in that round. So, she got the second best bow, but any equipment that increase critical damage chance with bows went to Leliana. Zev had Red Jenny Seeker, Felon's coat (which was slightly higher in increasing dex than Lel's dlc armor). I think the difference probably had something to do with Lel gets cunning boost while Zev gets dex boost, plus I put more points in cunning ro Lel than to Zev. I increase his cunning until he can unlock up to 50 XP chests and disarm 50 XP traps with three lockpick skills (all the physical talents tombs I buy go to Zevran unless the warden is a rogue, in which case he has the job of picking locks) and equipment (which adds about 11 cunning points overall). Basically, I don't bother with his cunning once his base cunning is 22, which will enable me to unlock his master stealth talent. All the rest goes to dex. By level 18, he really turns into an awesome killing machine. By the end game, with rally on, his defense rate is near 160. He doesn't get hit even fighting elites. Even better, if I give him dueling as a second spec, but I prefer both his and Lel's second spec to be a ranger.

[capn233]

Red Jenny Seekers are 15% critical damage bonus... Zev probably had higher crit damage bonus and AoS is a double crit.  Also if Zev has a higher base damage bow, that would give him an advantage for a damage number.

 

With Lethality, Leliana gains the same amount of damage for a Longbow with Cunning as Zev does with Dex.  Actually in reality she gains a little more since Cunning also increases AP and further buffs Song of Courage.  Of course if they are in the same party then Zev is also gaining from her SoC.

[SherryGold]

Her lethality was unlocked when she had a go at the elite orge and I don't take Lel to the final battle unless I'm a mage and I want two melee rogue and two mage set up. (I used to favour ranged attack against high dragon, broodmother and the arch demon, but nowadays I always use melee fight backed up by two mages. You don't get the killing blow animation with magic or archery) So, Zev didn't benefit from her SoC. Perhaps, it was Red Jenny Seeker or perhaps Zev had two items that raise all his attribute by two points, while Lel didn't have any. Or perhaps, it was the fact that Zev's opponent was an arch demon.

[SherryGold]

Oh, actually apart from Red Jenny Seekers (I'm not sure why I thought it would only increase melee critical damage. It should also increase archery damage), I remember Jevran was also benefiting from Telechinic weapon buffet. And here I thought cunning doesn't benefit archers, apart from indirectly through SoC. I've noticed however that increasing cunning doesn't seem to do anything to the base damage value for daggers, even with lethality unlocked, although it will increase armor penetration. Is that a bug? I don't think it will make any difference to my usual build, however. 100 attack and defense score is just not good enough for fighting elites or bosses and cunning seems to do nothing for them..

[capn233]

Cunning should increase damage for daggers if you have Lethality.  Dagger attribute should be 50% dex and 50% strength, where strength is replaced with cunning if you have Lethatlity (and cun > str).

 

I usually build Leliana as a cunning dagger rogue (after a level or two of transition).  Her attack and defense is adequate for party runs IMO (with some dex early for dagger reqs and then late after lock / trap score > 60).  Her damage seems to skyrocket through the teens.  I usually just giver her Dueling for the attack and defense bonus, she'll get bonus attack from SoC, and she'll essentially get bonus attack if you position her for flanking. I don't bother for that so much by late game since she will have Coup de Grace by then.  There are a lot of daggers and gear with dex or attack bonuses.

[SherryGold]

Yes, with lethality unlocked, cunning should increase damage done by dagger, but the damage figure doesn't seem to change at all after increasing cunning while with dex, I can see the base damage figure increase. Perhaps my version is bugged.

When I tried both Lel and Jev as melee rogues, her damage contribution was far below Zevran's throughout because she was forever catching up and it takes several levels to build her into a formidable melee rogue (no lethality, no passive duelwielding talents, no stealth, lower combat skill, no momentum during the period where my mages are still building points towards haste), His contribution was nearly twice higher than Lel's throughout. She beat, however, both mages, and certainly contributed far more than Alister when teamed up with Zev to do melee. The good daggers always went to Zev first because he could equip it while Lel couldn't. Same with the bows. She wasn't built for a melee rogue and I do not usually like using her as such because it feels like a waste of her strength. I guess it is a matter of what people find more important whether we use Zev or Lel as a rogue, if there is only one slot for rogue. I can live with not being able to pick a lock for a while and trap disarming is not essential because you don't usually go round and disarm traps once the fight starts and in order for a rogue to scout ahead and disarm all the traps, you need at least combat stealth. Mostly, I just take the fight away from any traps. Luring enemies out, so to speak.

I use advanced tactic mods so that my rogues always try to flank, but once they have a coup de grace, flanking doesn't matter, because my mages will stun or paralyze the enemies more often than not.

[capn233]

Lethality w/ Cunning increases dagger damage on PC 1.05, I was talking about Leliana's damage to say that in a roundabout fashion. I just finished a solo rogue recently where I started pumping Cun after Lethality around level 20 (since def was already 150's)... if it wasn't working the dagger damage should have flattened when I did that, but it did not.  If it flat-lined on Leliana, I never noticed that either.

 

I would agree that Zev is probably a better DW earlier than Leliana, but I want as many chests opened as possible so I like her higher utility.  The reason I switch her to daggers is because I think she does more damage as opposed to as an archer.

 

I don't see why Leliana can't rival or beat Zev in consistent dps mid-late game with daggers though, assuming the same or similar equipment.  Whether or not she can make up early game ground is another matter since she doesn't get to kill all those targets again.  It is a bit unfair if Zev gets to run something like Red Jenny Seekers, Rose's Thorn, Edge, Felon's and Lel gets leftover gear, especially considering how much better Rose's is compared to pretty much everything.  That was really part of why I started replying on this topic (I mean Leliana) in the first place.  You seemed surprised that Zev does more damage when he has all the top tier gear and Lel doesn't, but said it was because she is going cunning. 

[SherryGold]

I'm not surprised that Zev does more damage melee wise. No more than my rogue warden does more damage than Zev. I was surprised that Zev did more damage with bows at the end game than Lel, but we've established why. Lel can't beat Zev throughout not just because of the gear but because her defence and attack score will always be lower. Lower dex, no dex boost, etc. Passive DW talents are also important and the ability to switch on momentum when they are dispelled by enemy mages or both mages went down. But of course being better at melee means, Zev will make far better use of rose thorn, etc and that contributes to the reason why there was so much difference to their party damage contribution.

[Elhanan]

2H Warrior - my recommendation is to acquire both Sunder abilities ASAP to speed combat, and have them set on Tactics to be used frequently (eg; Enemy > nearest Visible > Sunder Armor/ Arms). Also, Indomitable should be left on at all times, IMO.

The downside of the 2H is that some runes only fire on default swings, so you may wish to look into which ones fall on that list, and possibly use them elsewhere.

DW Rogue - daggers are obviously a quicker DPS than other weapon choices, but all 1H weapons can be useful, as are shields. Momentum is a key sustained ability, as are all the top tier slots. While my pref is to make a hybrid DW/ Archer, the Rogue is more than capable of holding their own. I personally like to use STR 38+ and utilize heavy armor, Cun 22 or 30, and DEX as much as possible. Prefer this thug build to one that is Overwhelmed, Grabbed, etc and reloading.

[capn233]

I was surprised that Zev did more damage with bows at the end game than Lel, but we've established why.

 

 

Lel can't beat Zev throughout not just because of the gear but because her defence and attack score will always be lower. Lower dex, no dex boost, etc. Passive DW talents are also important and the ability to switch on momentum when they are dispelled by enemy mages or both mages went down. But of course being better at melee means, Zev will make far better use of rose thorn, etc and that contributes to the reason why there was so much difference to their party damage contribution.

Seems to me that by mid-late game Leliana should be able to have practically everything that matters for DW dps anyway, especially if in a game not modded for bug fixes.

Her attack score will not be quite as high, but she can end up well past 100 attack, and over 110 defense. She needs SoC, Lethality with respect to skills Zev doesn't need or won't get. Dueling is helpful, but Zev might get it as well depending on what specs you like for him.

At 50 cunning, SoC itself will give Leliana 7 attack, 4 damage per hit, and 7% crit chance. Zev can't get this sort of bonus from SoC unless he is cheating and getting it from Leliana.

[SherryGold]

 

 

Seems to me that by mid-late game Leliana should be able to have practically everything that matters for DW dps anyway, especially if in a game not modded for bug fixes.

Her attack score will not be quite as high, but she can end up well past 100 attack, and over 110 defense. She needs SoC, Lethality with respect to skills Zev doesn't need or won't get. Dueling is helpful, but Zev might get it as well depending on what specs you like for him.

At 50 cunning, SoC itself will give Leliana 7 attack, 4 damage per hit, and 7% crit chance. Zev can't get this sort of bonus from SoC unless he is cheating and getting it from Leliana.

For me, the attack and defence score cannot be high enough. 100 attack isn't good enough against elite or bosses, especially with double haste on, which undermines attack score (and even though Wynne is instructed to cast heroic offense, the effect tends to wear off quickly and she cannot always babysit your attack score). I also want defense score for rogues over 150 by the end game. I think the magic score is 160 or so where you simply don't get hit in melee. And say, Zev's cunning is 30 as opposed to Lel's 50, but the 20 difference means he gets 20 higher dex, which is 10 attack, 20 defence, which is why I build my rogue warden dex based rather than cunning based. And if SoC increases attack score and damage, I find mark of death make boss fighting so much easier. If I value SoC high enough, I can always give Zev a bard as a second spec, but I prefer ranger talents for my rogues, incredibly useful when you are dealing with enemies that can overwhelm. That's what I aim for my melee rogues and my wardens tend to find life a lot easier with Zev than with Lel in the team.

 

As for Lel's development into a melee rogue, say if I give the physical tombs I give Zev to Lel to increase her stealth by two points instead of raising Zev's lockpicking skill by two points. That still leaves, deadly strike, lethality, and three points leading to Momentum, first line of DW talent that Lel doesn't have and Zev has when he joins the team. Six level up and in the meantime, Zev can unlock coup de grace, riposte, and another DS passive talent, plus combat stealth. By now we are in the mid game and in order Lel to catch up with him she needs another six level up. But in the mean time she will need song of courage unlocked and after that like Zev, she will need to get her ranger talents unlocked. I haven't got any level left to give her evasion plus third DW passive talent. We are nearly at the end of the game. So, throughout the game, I find Zevran far more useful than Lel to my warden, because I prefer melee rogue and he is built for melee fight.

 

I don't usually have the patience to keep Lel in the team and develop her till she turns into a credible melee rogue (who can approach an enemy mage unseen, quickly kill him and run back to the team without getting badly injured), which means she is sometimes two levels below Zevran, until the warden starts to heavily invest in the allies' chest for XPs and everyone becomes a level below the warden. Having said all that, Lel is still a better choice than any of the warrior when my warden is a mage, even though I am seriously tempted to use respec mod every time I have to use Lel as a melee rogue, but I can understand your reason for preferring Lel. As I said, it depends on what you find more important and what skills and attributes you value more.