141 réponses à ce sujet

[SherryGold]

By now I've played all the origins and classes, including a rogue archer, my least favorite. I had a lot of reservations about playing a two-handed warrior because two handers tend to be frustratingly slow, but having just played a two-handed warrior on the nightmare difficulty, I think I like it even better than playing a melee rogue. It's tough going in the beginning even with the aid of dlc items. You are slow and when you miss, it really hurts. And then all the enemies seem to go for you. Morrigan had to save my MC's sorry ass with force field numerous times until Zevran and Wynne joined the team. Even then I can see rogues make far better use of mass stun (waking nightmare) and mass paralysis my mages can cast later on. I often saw Zevran finishing my MC's target while he is still in the mid swing. But but...

Since I put on everything into strength, by level 7, he can wear dragon plate armor and wield dragonbone cleaver. Level eight, he wears Night Commander's armor and with spellward and with just one expert dwemer rune, he gets the maximum magic protection the game will allow. Give him a lifeward ring and he makes a far better tank than any S&S warrior, plus the amount of damage he can deal at the later stage of game is just amazing. With both mages casting haste and Zevran quickly finishing off whatever my MC and the mages started, you get a ridiculously awesome team. By the end game, Zevran was only 1% higher in overall party damage contribution than the warden and they were equal partners in damage contribution, because the sheer amount of damage the warden can inflict with each swing. (It does prove that rogues are the highest damage dealers though since Zevran missed at least six or seven levels of fighting the Warden was in)

So, which class do you prefer for your MC? Two handed warrior or a melee rogue?

 

[capn233]

2H overall.  Part of that is just because there is a bit more management involved, so it feels like I am doing more.  Melee rogue is more about using a stun then autoattacking, with a few DW sweeps thrown in it seems like.

 

DW Rogue kills trash mobs faster, the advantage of 2H is in fights where the enemy has the potential to disable the player with knockdowns or stuns.  For instance, 2H is probably a little better against ogres unless the rogue can make sure the target is completely locked down with paralysis runes, poison and stuns.

 

A couple things that are helpful early with hitrate is to pick up Precise Striking and then turn it on after you use a few talents (after you get Deathblow, you can potentially leave it on all the time).  Also once you get Wynne you can set her to buff you with Heroic Offense, and later Haste for swing speed.

[Deadly dwarf]

Hmmm....I suppose I just don't specialize to the degree that others do.  I prefer two-hand rogue over warrior because of all the additional skills you get.  But I don't just focus on dual-wield or rogue abilities.  I also go for archery points as well.  Sometimes you want to keep your distance...  For that matter, all my warriors carry a crossbow as a secondary weapon as well though I have them put in no more than one or two archery skills.

[SherryGold]

2H overall.  Part of that is just because there is a bit more management involved, so it feels like I am doing more.  Melee rogue is more about using a stun then autoattacking, with a few DW sweeps thrown in it seems like.

 

DW Rogue kills trash mobs faster, the advantage of 2H is in fights where the enemy has the potential to disable the player with knockdowns or stuns.  For instance, 2H is probably a little better against ogres unless the rogue can make sure the target is completely locked down with paralysis runes, poison and stuns.

 

A couple things that are helpful early with hitrate is to pick up Precise Striking and then turn it on after you use a few talents (after you get Deathblow, you can potentially leave it on all the time).  Also once you get Wynne you can set her to buff you with Heroic Offense, and later Haste for swing speed.

Yes, I must say I became a big fan of indomitable, especially during the Denerim quests just before the Landsmeet, when the archers spam scattershots. (During this period, Morrigan's priority changes and the first thing in her tactic is to send archers to sleep) The only thing about this build is it relies more heavily on talents than melee rogues and I usually have him wear warden commanders boots + Andruil's Blessing. You still need Wynne in the team to rejuvenate their stamina + to cast haste. Otherwise, even with all the willpower boosting items (spellward, dragonbone cleaver, and the Night Commander's armor), indomitable may come off. I have at least three passive talents activated for the warden at all times - rally, indomitable and threaten. I tend to insist on giving riposte and combat stealth to my melee rogues asap to take care of enemy mages, but other than that not really bothered by any other active DW talent. Passive talents and paralysis runes seem more important for them (and of course any item that increases backstab/critical strike damage).

[SherryGold]

Hmmm....I suppose I just don't specialize to the degree that others do.  I prefer two-hand rogue over warrior because of all the additional skills you get.  But I don't just focus on dual-wield or rogue abilities.  I also go for archery points as well.  Sometimes you want to keep your distance...  For that matter, all my warriors carry a crossbow as a secondary weapon as well though I have them put in no more than one or two archery skills.

My melee rogues are mostly dex build and can do reasonably good damage with bows without any active talent. I usually start to give Zevran one row of archery talents once he reaches level 19 or so, just so that he can have a go at the arch demon when you can't get closer to it. I was actually amazed that he did more damage with his arrow of slaying than Leliana with hers since she gets aim and master archery unlocked, though it may be because Leliana only has a go at the elite orge while Zevran gets to shoot the arch demon. Only four times during the entire game, I tell my melee rogues or warriors use a bow. But yes, I like giving them good bows as well as best daggers available.

[capn233]

What is Leliana's second spec in that instance, and is she running Song of Courage?

 

edit: ah if it is just on arrow of slaying, did Zevran have more critical damage bonus?

[SherryGold]

What is Leliana's second spec in that instance, and is she running Song of Courage?

 

edit: ah if it is just on arrow of slaying, did Zevran have more critical damage bonus?

Yes, she was. Zevran had the dlc bow, and I didn't do Lel's personal quest in that round. So, she got the second best bow, but any equipment that increase critical damage chance with bows went to Leliana. Zev had Red Jenny Seeker, Felon's coat (which was slightly higher in increasing dex than Lel's dlc armor). I think the difference probably had something to do with Lel gets cunning boost while Zev gets dex boost, plus I put more points in cunning ro Lel than to Zev. I increase his cunning until he can unlock up to 50 XP chests and disarm 50 XP traps with three lockpick skills (all the physical talents tombs I buy go to Zevran unless the warden is a rogue, in which case he has the job of picking locks) and equipment (which adds about 11 cunning points overall). Basically, I don't bother with his cunning once his base cunning is 22, which will enable me to unlock his master stealth talent. All the rest goes to dex. By level 18, he really turns into an awesome killing machine. By the end game, with rally on, his defense rate is near 160. He doesn't get hit even fighting elites. Even better, if I give him dueling as a second spec, but I prefer both his and Lel's second spec to be a ranger.

[capn233]

Red Jenny Seekers are 15% critical damage bonus... Zev probably had higher crit damage bonus and AoS is a double crit.  Also if Zev has a higher base damage bow, that would give him an advantage for a damage number.

 

With Lethality, Leliana gains the same amount of damage for a Longbow with Cunning as Zev does with Dex.  Actually in reality she gains a little more since Cunning also increases AP and further buffs Song of Courage.  Of course if they are in the same party then Zev is also gaining from her SoC.

[SherryGold]

Her lethality was unlocked when she had a go at the elite orge and I don't take Lel to the final battle unless I'm a mage and I want two melee rogue and two mage set up. (I used to favour ranged attack against high dragon, broodmother and the arch demon, but nowadays I always use melee fight backed up by two mages. You don't get the killing blow animation with magic or archery) So, Zev didn't benefit from her SoC. Perhaps, it was Red Jenny Seeker or perhaps Zev had two items that raise all his attribute by two points, while Lel didn't have any. Or perhaps, it was the fact that Zev's opponent was an arch demon.

[SherryGold]

Oh, actually apart from Red Jenny Seekers (I'm not sure why I thought it would only increase melee critical damage. It should also increase archery damage), I remember Jevran was also benefiting from Telechinic weapon buffet. And here I thought cunning doesn't benefit archers, apart from indirectly through SoC. I've noticed however that increasing cunning doesn't seem to do anything to the base damage value for daggers, even with lethality unlocked, although it will increase armor penetration. Is that a bug? I don't think it will make any difference to my usual build, however. 100 attack and defense score is just not good enough for fighting elites or bosses and cunning seems to do nothing for them..

[capn233]

Cunning should increase damage for daggers if you have Lethality.  Dagger attribute should be 50% dex and 50% strength, where strength is replaced with cunning if you have Lethatlity (and cun > str).

 

I usually build Leliana as a cunning dagger rogue (after a level or two of transition).  Her attack and defense is adequate for party runs IMO (with some dex early for dagger reqs and then late after lock / trap score > 60).  Her damage seems to skyrocket through the teens.  I usually just giver her Dueling for the attack and defense bonus, she'll get bonus attack from SoC, and she'll essentially get bonus attack if you position her for flanking. I don't bother for that so much by late game since she will have Coup de Grace by then.  There are a lot of daggers and gear with dex or attack bonuses.

[SherryGold]

Yes, with lethality unlocked, cunning should increase damage done by dagger, but the damage figure doesn't seem to change at all after increasing cunning while with dex, I can see the base damage figure increase. Perhaps my version is bugged.

When I tried both Lel and Jev as melee rogues, her damage contribution was far below Zevran's throughout because she was forever catching up and it takes several levels to build her into a formidable melee rogue (no lethality, no passive duelwielding talents, no stealth, lower combat skill, no momentum during the period where my mages are still building points towards haste), His contribution was nearly twice higher than Lel's throughout. She beat, however, both mages, and certainly contributed far more than Alister when teamed up with Zev to do melee. The good daggers always went to Zev first because he could equip it while Lel couldn't. Same with the bows. She wasn't built for a melee rogue and I do not usually like using her as such because it feels like a waste of her strength. I guess it is a matter of what people find more important whether we use Zev or Lel as a rogue, if there is only one slot for rogue. I can live with not being able to pick a lock for a while and trap disarming is not essential because you don't usually go round and disarm traps once the fight starts and in order for a rogue to scout ahead and disarm all the traps, you need at least combat stealth. Mostly, I just take the fight away from any traps. Luring enemies out, so to speak.

I use advanced tactic mods so that my rogues always try to flank, but once they have a coup de grace, flanking doesn't matter, because my mages will stun or paralyze the enemies more often than not.

[capn233]

Lethality w/ Cunning increases dagger damage on PC 1.05, I was talking about Leliana's damage to say that in a roundabout fashion. I just finished a solo rogue recently where I started pumping Cun after Lethality around level 20 (since def was already 150's)... if it wasn't working the dagger damage should have flattened when I did that, but it did not.  If it flat-lined on Leliana, I never noticed that either.

 

I would agree that Zev is probably a better DW earlier than Leliana, but I want as many chests opened as possible so I like her higher utility.  The reason I switch her to daggers is because I think she does more damage as opposed to as an archer.

 

I don't see why Leliana can't rival or beat Zev in consistent dps mid-late game with daggers though, assuming the same or similar equipment.  Whether or not she can make up early game ground is another matter since she doesn't get to kill all those targets again.  It is a bit unfair if Zev gets to run something like Red Jenny Seekers, Rose's Thorn, Edge, Felon's and Lel gets leftover gear, especially considering how much better Rose's is compared to pretty much everything.  That was really part of why I started replying on this topic (I mean Leliana) in the first place.  You seemed surprised that Zev does more damage when he has all the top tier gear and Lel doesn't, but said it was because she is going cunning. 

[SherryGold]

I'm not surprised that Zev does more damage melee wise. No more than my rogue warden does more damage than Zev. I was surprised that Zev did more damage with bows at the end game than Lel, but we've established why. Lel can't beat Zev throughout not just because of the gear but because her defence and attack score will always be lower. Lower dex, no dex boost, etc. Passive DW talents are also important and the ability to switch on momentum when they are dispelled by enemy mages or both mages went down. But of course being better at melee means, Zev will make far better use of rose thorn, etc and that contributes to the reason why there was so much difference to their party damage contribution.

[Elhanan]

2H Warrior - my recommendation is to acquire both Sunder abilities ASAP to speed combat, and have them set on Tactics to be used frequently (eg; Enemy > nearest Visible > Sunder Armor/ Arms). Also, Indomitable should be left on at all times, IMO.

The downside of the 2H is that some runes only fire on default swings, so you may wish to look into which ones fall on that list, and possibly use them elsewhere.

DW Rogue - daggers are obviously a quicker DPS than other weapon choices, but all 1H weapons can be useful, as are shields. Momentum is a key sustained ability, as are all the top tier slots. While my pref is to make a hybrid DW/ Archer, the Rogue is more than capable of holding their own. I personally like to use STR 38+ and utilize heavy armor, Cun 22 or 30, and DEX as much as possible. Prefer this thug build to one that is Overwhelmed, Grabbed, etc and reloading.

[capn233]

I was surprised that Zev did more damage with bows at the end game than Lel, but we've established why.

 

 

Lel can't beat Zev throughout not just because of the gear but because her defence and attack score will always be lower. Lower dex, no dex boost, etc. Passive DW talents are also important and the ability to switch on momentum when they are dispelled by enemy mages or both mages went down. But of course being better at melee means, Zev will make far better use of rose thorn, etc and that contributes to the reason why there was so much difference to their party damage contribution.

Seems to me that by mid-late game Leliana should be able to have practically everything that matters for DW dps anyway, especially if in a game not modded for bug fixes.

Her attack score will not be quite as high, but she can end up well past 100 attack, and over 110 defense. She needs SoC, Lethality with respect to skills Zev doesn't need or won't get. Dueling is helpful, but Zev might get it as well depending on what specs you like for him.

At 50 cunning, SoC itself will give Leliana 7 attack, 4 damage per hit, and 7% crit chance. Zev can't get this sort of bonus from SoC unless he is cheating and getting it from Leliana.

[SherryGold]

 

 

Seems to me that by mid-late game Leliana should be able to have practically everything that matters for DW dps anyway, especially if in a game not modded for bug fixes.

Her attack score will not be quite as high, but she can end up well past 100 attack, and over 110 defense. She needs SoC, Lethality with respect to skills Zev doesn't need or won't get. Dueling is helpful, but Zev might get it as well depending on what specs you like for him.

At 50 cunning, SoC itself will give Leliana 7 attack, 4 damage per hit, and 7% crit chance. Zev can't get this sort of bonus from SoC unless he is cheating and getting it from Leliana.

For me, the attack and defence score cannot be high enough. 100 attack isn't good enough against elite or bosses, especially with double haste on, which undermines attack score (and even though Wynne is instructed to cast heroic offense, the effect tends to wear off quickly and she cannot always babysit your attack score). I also want defense score for rogues over 150 by the end game. I think the magic score is 160 or so where you simply don't get hit in melee. And say, Zev's cunning is 30 as opposed to Lel's 50, but the 20 difference means he gets 20 higher dex, which is 10 attack, 20 defence, which is why I build my rogue warden dex based rather than cunning based. And if SoC increases attack score and damage, I find mark of death make boss fighting so much easier. If I value SoC high enough, I can always give Zev a bard as a second spec, but I prefer ranger talents for my rogues, incredibly useful when you are dealing with enemies that can overwhelm. That's what I aim for my melee rogues and my wardens tend to find life a lot easier with Zev than with Lel in the team.

 

As for Lel's development into a melee rogue, say if I give the physical tombs I give Zev to Lel to increase her stealth by two points instead of raising Zev's lockpicking skill by two points. That still leaves, deadly strike, lethality, and three points leading to Momentum, first line of DW talent that Lel doesn't have and Zev has when he joins the team. Six level up and in the meantime, Zev can unlock coup de grace, riposte, and another DS passive talent, plus combat stealth. By now we are in the mid game and in order Lel to catch up with him she needs another six level up. But in the mean time she will need song of courage unlocked and after that like Zev, she will need to get her ranger talents unlocked. I haven't got any level left to give her evasion plus third DW passive talent. We are nearly at the end of the game. So, throughout the game, I find Zevran far more useful than Lel to my warden, because I prefer melee rogue and he is built for melee fight.

 

I don't usually have the patience to keep Lel in the team and develop her till she turns into a credible melee rogue (who can approach an enemy mage unseen, quickly kill him and run back to the team without getting badly injured), which means she is sometimes two levels below Zevran, until the warden starts to heavily invest in the allies' chest for XPs and everyone becomes a level below the warden. Having said all that, Lel is still a better choice than any of the warrior when my warden is a mage, even though I am seriously tempted to use respec mod every time I have to use Lel as a melee rogue, but I can understand your reason for preferring Lel. As I said, it depends on what you find more important and what skills and attributes you value more. 

[Snowdog65]

#1: By now I've played all the origins and classes, including a rogue archer, my least favorite.

 

#2: I had a lot of reservations about playing a two-handed warrior because two handers tend to be frustratingly slow, but having just played a two-handed warrior on the nightmare difficulty, I think I like it even better than playing a melee rogue. It's tough going in the beginning even with the aid of dlc items. You are slow and when you miss, it really hurts. And then all the enemies seem to go for you. Morrigan had to save my MC's sorry ass with force field numerous times until Zevran and Wynne joined the team. Even then I can see rogues make far better use of mass stun (waking nightmare) and mass paralysis my mages can cast later on. I often saw Zevran finishing my MC's target while he is still in the mid swing.

 

#3: But but...

Since I put on everything into strength, by level 7, he can wear dragon plate armor and wield dragonbone cleaver. Level eight, he wears Night Commander's armor and with spellward and with just one expert dwemer rune, he gets the maximum magic protection the game will allow. Give him a lifeward ring and he makes a far better tank than any S&S warrior,

 

#4: plus the amount of damage he can deal at the later stage of game is just amazing. With both mages casting haste and Zevran quickly finishing off whatever my MC and the mages started, you get a ridiculously awesome team. By the end game, Zevran was only 1% higher in overall party damage contribution than the warden and they were equal partners in damage contribution, because the sheer amount of damage the warden can inflict with each swing. (It does prove that rogues are the highest damage dealers though since Zevran missed at least six or seven levels of fighting the Warden was in)

So, which class do you prefer for your MC? Two handed warrior or a melee rogue?

 

DW Rogue, by a landslide. DPS is higher, and talents are prodigious.  Stealth is pretty near untouchable in DAO. I often park my party while my rogue scouts ahead, removing the traps and often cleaning out the whole dungeon(killing everything), before having the party catch up.

 

A Rogue does it all (traps,locks, stealth) to solo areas, and can easily melee with the best warriors.

 

Some specific comments on what you said.

 

#1: Archery is second class in DAO.  You get no runes, fire/frost/telekenitic buffs don't work. Useful talents don't work (Ex: Coup de grace).  I would never build a primary archer as my main in DAO, but I give secondary archery to everyone possible. For big boss fights, and attack at range before the enemy closes, etc...

 

#2: This isn't damning with faint praise. It's just damning. If one of your NPC melee characters is equal to your damage, it should highlight just how weak 2Handers really are in this game. Your main has all kinds of advantages over you NPC companions. If their offense was even close, Zevran should be way behind on the damage contribution.

 

#3 All that defensive gear does the exact same thing for any warrior, so I don't see how it makes you a better tank that a SnS warrior.

 

#4 So it all comes down to showing big damage numbers on hits. This isn't much of an argument. Zev is edging ahead by endgame, and he's an NPC at a massive disadvantage to your PC main.

 

Your own posted evidence really points to DW rogues being better, even if we ignore all their extra utility.

 

You just have preference for seeing those big damage numbers.

[SherryGold]

Hmm. I agree that DW rogue can be an awesome damage dealer and the stealth can be damned useful. I can see that why you favor a DW rogue. However, though DPS is important, I wouldn't always want to play as a rogue. And if I don't want to play as a rogue, I will expect my dex melee rogue, Zevran, should match my party damage contribution at least, unless I'm playing as a DW warrior. If not, it means I neglected developing him into a proper rogue and didn't provide him a suitable gear. Or got all his tactics wrong.

If all I care about is the big number in the name of highest damage, I should be playing as a mage all the time. No warrior or rogue can beat a mage in that area. When I play as a mage, any melee who cannot surpass my damage contribution doesn't have a place in my team, as I tend to choose an arcane warrior spec and usually does not require a tank, unless that tank is Shale and I'm dealing with werewolves or spiders. I don't give my mages any spell that can cause a friendly fire and it's all about controlling the battle field and supporting the melee team to finish the battle as quickly as possible. I'm not that interested in an awesome warden who can practically solo everything. If I wanted solo, I should just keep playing Oblivion. I am more interested in building a team that works and can laugh at the face of the nightmare difficulty. And so I don't think Zevran should be way behind the warden in terms of damage contribution and do all I can to fully realize his potential. If he has to pick the locks, he will get all the physical tomes available, so that he can remain as a lean mean fighting machine without losing talents points valuable for fighting. A warden warrior has more than enough talent points for all he needs and more by the end game. It's rogues who needs the tomes.

Also it is true that all warrior wardens can wear the night commander's armor, but a 2H warden can wear it a lot quicker, plus his immunity to stun or knock down can be pretty useful as a tank. I've already acknowledged that in terms of dps, 2H cannot match a melee rogue, but the immunity to scatter shot is pretty nice and I appreciate it a lot during Anora rescue mission.

[Snowdog65]

So you give some talent books to Zev, did you give him your Fade bonuses too? Was he in the party as much as you? There Many reason why your main should be the major damage contributor to your party if there is even remotely close to parity between the classes in damage dealing. But there isn't parity. DW is on top.

 

IMO  in this game, a Warrior is just like Rogue stripped of talents. That doesn't seem like a good thing. Since Warriors are really NOT better fighters. The only thing they do, Rogues do just as well, and Rogues do so much Extra. And what is arguably the best fighting style (DW) is fully open to Rogues as well. It's just Win-Win for Rogues.

 

Also, I like my main character to be the one I control most, the leader, the first character through a door. Really, that should be a Rogue, to find disable traps, and possibly scouting to foil ambushes. Not only that, but when the fighting is over, you are back to controlling the Rogue, to open up chests for loot.  It turns out even if my main is a Warrior, I spend most of the time controlling my Rogue.

 

I am experiencing this right now.  I had started a new playthrough, before I happened on this thread. I has been years since I played as a fighter, so I was trying a DW fighter. He fought much like my DW Rogues, which was great. Basically nothing new to see. The fighting is just as fun as playing a Rogue but I either have to use Leliana as my lead character or stumble into traps, and use her after the battle to open chests... If I use her before and after the fighting, that really is most of the time. During the fighting, I just control, whoever needs controlling. 

 

At 10th level the Damage Contributions:

My DW fighter: 50%

Morrigan: 22%

Leliana: 17%

Alistair: 9 %

 

I had tried once at lower level to respec into 2H, but I found it intolerably slow. Now after reading this thread, I have just respeced again. At level ten at least I get 2H sweep, but considering the maxed out strength, the damage output is dismal given the slow speed.  I also changed Alistair to a DW warrior with a respec.

 

He was lagging far in the back before, but I can tell that is going to change. Alistair is now stealing my kill, vice versa of the previous setup.

 

Really I think this should be two separate questions.

 

DW vs 2H warrior? and when you come to the correct conclusion, then compare DW Rogue to DW Warrior. 

 

Finally, yes indomitable is very good, it is about the only really nice thing about 2H warriors.  But I don't think it is enough to put up with the wretched slow attack and low DPS. 

 

Also I think the Knight Commander armor kind of sucks. With Cailans I had ~6% fatigue, swapping in Knight Commander, I get ~30% fatigue. Not good for a build that relies on reusing active talents.

[SherryGold]

Well no Zevran can't have a fade bonus, which is why I already mentioned that Zev cannot beat a DW rogue warden in terms of damage contribution. And I have elsewhere acknowledged that DW warrior can beat 2H comfortably when it comes to dps, at least in my experience. So in terms of party damage contribution DW is the winner. And sure DW rogue can do extra things like stealth and two DW rogues with master stealth owns the battle field everytime. But a warrior can taunt and threaten and have maximum magic protection a lot earlier than rogues, though you may argue rogues with stealth do not need magic protection, and I found life far easier for a DW warrior than for a DW rogue at least in the beginning. Actually since I'm playing a strength rogue this time, I found life a whole lot easier in the beginning than when I was playing a dex rogue.

2H takes time to become a proper damage dealer and double haste somewhat remedy the problem of slow attack, but obviously DW rogues will benefit far more, since their attack speed will become phenomenal. So I can see why you have no patience for 2H and that's why it took me so long to try one out, but I like the immunity stun pretty appealing if I decide to go for a warrior. So well, each to their own. The point was you can still have a good working team when your main is 2H and not everyone wants to be a rogue no matter how great you are in terms of damage dealing or the extra utility you can have. Having said that now I learned that rally interferes with stealth, I will probably not play a warrior or just don't bother with a champion spec

In terms of having to rely on a rogue, I pretty much love clicking on Zevran so that's not an issue for me. In fact the one thing I don't like when playing a rogue is I tend to click on Zevran less. During the battle, I take over a lot whoever needs to be taken over. Morrigan, Zevran, Alistair, Stenn and Lel come with no tactic slots in the beginning and the warden's second priority is tactic slots. Persuasion skills can wait and I don't care if I end up with a pretty low score in that department. All the skill tomes tend to go to Morrigan since the party needs funds and after that she needs more tactic slots. In fact I play as Morrigan more often than as a warden. Towards the end, however, I just switch on possessed and watch the show. It's pretty damn satisfying when that happens. I've used respec in the past but only with Morrigan and a few companions from Karmas companion mod when I used the mod. It just feels wrong so I'm not doing that any more.

I do realize Cailan's armor is great and it seems to be made for a strength rogue, with its backstab bonus and 20% dosge. When you upgrade it as a massive armor, you can have a whooping 41 armor protection with just a lifegiver ring and the stamina cost is still pretty reasonable. Since a rogue cannot have a night commander's armor, I'm going to try that one on this round, currently waiting for it to be upgraded to the 7th tier. However, my 2H did not have a stamina issue even when he had three passive modes switched on at all times and did not invest a single point into willpower. I think there were just two occasions where his indomitable came off towards the end of the battle and after that I turned off threaten when I had to take Wynne out of the team. I hate it when the game forces a companion into the team, because I have a nice working team that is leveling together with a warden and then whoever is out will fall behind because I have to take on someone I don't want to.

[capn233]

KCP is good for what it is.  It is relatively cheap, available after Lothering, and grants 40% spell resist.  It has 5 will bonus to help with stamina.  Cailan's might be better when you run the whole set and get the fatigue bonus, but that isn't hugely surprising given that it is DLC.

 

Party damage depends on so many things it is hard to nail down how much is a result of what.  I agree the warden should generally have the advantage, but also depends on where your gold is being spent and which character you are microing the most.  2H and rogue both are pretty mediocre if left under AI control, one small difference is that mods can force rogues to go backstab, but there isn't anything I am aware of that makes AI control 2H correctly.  Of course there is also animation canceling which helps 2H, but that is obviously only when directly controlled.

 

I don't really know how Zev can catch a 2H warrior warden, especially if you spend gold on the warden first, and especially if you don't run extra backstab option in Advanced Tactics.  Yes dagger-dagger Zev will have better sustained auto-attack DPS but that isn't everything.  2H burst damage is higher.  With regard to kill numbers and kill stealing, generally if 2H leaves a target with a fraction of the health bar it is worth moving to the next target in a team setting and letting the rogue poke them a few times, or mage shoot them with the staff.  Alternatively, let the rogue poke them a couple times, then use sunders to get the kill.

 

With 2H low swing speed, economy of movement is a big consideration.  Talents need to only be used after a previous swing is completed, and largely after Level 12 (deathblow) you need to consider going nearly all talent use.  It is possible to go all auto-attack with 2H, but requires a pretty specialized team setup and also warden's keep.  I find talent spam more interesting (and this is largely why I like 2H better than dual dagger to play).

[Snowdog65]

Double haste:

A further sign that 2H is kind of broken in a bad way is needing double haste going to make it tolerable. Already fast attacking DW has an awesome built in Haste equivalent (momentum), that they keep up all the time. So they are more than tolerable with Zero mage haste, and are insane when mage haste is stacked. I just watch in awe (while my slow swing winds up) as Alistair/Leli (respecced) tear through everything with Haste/Momentum.

 

Since I am playing a Warrior and I consider a Rogue necessary and Alistair the most important companion in the game, I only have room for one mage/haste.

 

Armor:

I am out of Cailans now, and Alistair is in it (I am in Warden Commander Set with Helm of Honleath). I will break out the Templar armor if the situation warrants (lots of hostile magic). Another lack in the game is more decent Heavy (ie not massive) armor. Massive slows archery to painful level. Another reason to be a dex rogue in light armor.

 

Taunt/Threaten:

I don't consider that much of an advantage for warriors. I detest this MMO inspired mechanism and never use it. It really doesn't make sense, and only serves to make dumb AI even dumber. Any creature intelligent enough to recognize character classes, should go for the real threat (mage), not be distracted by the equivalent of waving a red cape in front of a bull.  Think about it, every player always tries to take out the enemy mages first. Imagine if taunt/threaten worked on the player and you were forced to ignore mages and let them nuke you. How stupid and annoying would that be?

 

Respecs:

I played the game with everyone built as they came once. But I respec as desired now. Surprisingly this is my first Respeccing of Alistair out of SnS and into DW. Wish I did it sooner. He is is now a serious force to be reckoned with. Instead of me finishing my enemy off and going over to help Alistair, I finish my guy off and Alistair and Leli (respec to DW/Duelist) have destroyed everything else.

 

Aesthetics/Animation:

2H aesthetics are dreadful. I absolutely hate the look of mauls whether hanging on my back or swinging, all the 2H weapons are oversized, comically so for a Dwarf. I am using Yusaris right now, despite Nug Crusher being the better 2H weapon.  No really comparable 2H Swords to Nug Crusher and Chasind GM.  Along the same lines, is the terrible 2H animation. Because the swing is so slow and enemies keep moving, there is more often than not, zero connection of weapon with enemy, so there is no real satisfying felling of hitting them, its just feels disconnected. They are just nearby when numbers pop over their heads. With DW it usually looks like you are actually hitting the enemy.

Summary: Ugly, disconnected, and unsatisfying.

 

2H is workable, but:

You can make anything (even 2H) work, especially on the main which is in the party full time, so often ends up a level ahead of everyone, and gets fade bonuses equal to 7 full levels of attribute gains. So essentially 8 levels ahead on attributes! I plan to try to stick it out and finish with a 2H warrior, but this would never be my preference. Sad because 2H is usually my favorite style (NWN/NWN2). But they really made a mess of it here.

[Qis]

Indomitable...that's your answer...you immune to stun and knockdown at level 1 if you have 20 Str.

 

Missing attacks is frustrating for THWarrior, that's why must rely on talent spamming, must need high stamina for that. it is lucky to have Executioner Helm killing the Knight at Cousland castle, it's a rare drop. Otherwise, keep 2 Str 1 Will at each level ups.

 

Melee Rogue might be deal damage faster but enemies can stun, bash and knockdown. In the end, it's still annoying.

 

So i go for TH Warrior

[Snowdog65]

2H and rogue both are pretty mediocre if left under AI control, one small difference is that mods can force rogues to go backstab, but there isn't anything I am aware of that makes AI control 2H correctly.  Of course there is also animation canceling which helps 2H, but that is obviously only when directly controlled.

 

Not really. You are making it sound like Rogues have to position behind enemies to be effective. I am certain, you know better than that.

 

2H pretty much require micromanagement, to spam talents with proper timing, rather than rely on terrible auto-attack DPS.

 

OTOH A Rogue with Momentum tears through stuff on it's own with fantastic auto-attack DPS, and with coup de grace, get criticals on stunned/disabled, throw in paralyzing runes and mage stuns and they get lots of crits, without micromanaging position.

 

When I control my rogue, I almost never move behind to backstab; Taking time to re-position for a backstab, would likely often cost more in lost damage from missed attacks, that you would gain for the backstab bonus.

 

Rogues are not reliant on positional backstabs.