141 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Rogues clearly do the most damage, especially early to mid game, if they take advantage of flanking.  Late game nearly anything can do whatever they want.  I agree that the AI is worse at controlling 2H than DW rogue, but both are obviously worse than if player controlled.  AI SnS automates better than either, and the main detrimental effect of AI mages is party damage.

 

Of course the quote in context is about the effect of micro on contribution to party damage.  If micro is causing the character relatively less contribution to party damage, there might be something wrong with the management.

[Snowdog65]

Rogues clearly do the most damage, especially early to mid game, if they take advantage of flanking.

 

If you turn 2 hits, into 1 hit, by wasting time to re-positioning for a backstab, in the early mid game, you have lost damage, not gained it.

 

Early Backstab damage is only ~50% more and isn't worth losing hits over. If you can position without losing hits, then it is a benefit, but really that is seldom the case.

 

Most creatures will pretty instantly turn around once you backstab them so it isn't like you can just park behind them and get back-stabs at will. 

[Elhanan]

If you turn 2 hits, into 1 hit, by wasting time to re-positioning for a backstab, in the early mid game, you have lost damage, not gained it.
 
Early Backstab damage is only ~50% more and isn't worth losing hits over. If you can position without losing hits, then it is a benefit, but really that is seldom the case.
 
Most creatures will pretty instantly turn around once you backstab them so it isn't like you can just park behind them and get back-stabs at will.

Depending on the attack queue and effects, they can (eg; Dirty Fighting, Paralysis runes). And I believe that Combat Movement allows for a rear flanking position; not directly behind to gain Backstab bonuses.

[Snowdog65]

Depending on the attack queue and effects, they can (eg; Dirty Fighting, Paralysis runes). And I believe that Combat Movement allows for a rear flanking position; not directly behind to gain Backstab bonuses.

 

And you are then only one talent away from Coup De Grace(level 8 priority for DW rogues), letting you backstab them(if stunned) in the face with ZERO need to wast time getting into position.

 

So level 1-7 you can play a game of marginal returns (50% bonus vs lost hits) positioning behind someone after you stun them. The need for rogues to get behind someone is overplayed. Rogues have great DPS straight up, the positional stuff is a nice bonus when it presents itself, but can just as easily be ignored.

[capn233]

It isn't marginal before coup de grace.  To cut down on confounding variables, start up a solo rogue vanilla style and go through the origin, Ostagar and Lothering with and without flanking.

 

Regardless the entire line of discussion has to do with micro increasing relative contribution to party damage.  If you think AI controlled rogue will have as much contribution as player controlled rogue, ok.  The reason I posted at all was to relate to numbers seen in game.  Relative time spent controlling whoever as well as relative gold spent on equipping whoever matters.

 

As far as the topic goes, as I said earlier I prefer to play 2H over DW because I find it more fun.  And I am skeptical that all things being equal Zev would actually catch a 2H Str warden.  If all things aren't equal, why not?  I am sure Morrigan could win the party damage war if someone started microing her exclusively after Ostagar.

[Blazomancer]

@Snowdog65 - The only issue I have with your assessment is that you make it sound like 2H warriors are good for nothing. Sure the DW rogue has tons of more utility and greater DPS, making me share a similiar sentiment with you in regard to the topic here, but that doesn't mean 2H warriors don't have things going for them that can make them valuable members of a squad. (I might personally give 2H warriros an 8 where I might give DW characters a 9.5, out of 10 that is, if anybody's wondering.) PS: I don't relish cross-class comparisons much though unless it's done on a criteria basis.

[Mike3207]

Melee rogue, not even close. 2h warriors just attack too slow for me to keep in my party.

[Snowdog65]

@Snowdog65 - The only issue I have with your assessment is that you make it sound like 2H warriors are good for nothing. Sure the DW rogue has tons of more utility and greater DPS, making me share a similiar sentiment with you in regard to the topic here, but that doesn't mean 2H warriors don't have things going for them that can make them valuable members of a squad. (I might personally give 2H warriros an 8 where I might give DW characters a 9.5, out of 10 that is, if anybody's wondering.) PS: I don't relish cross-class comparisons much though unless it's done on a criteria basis.

 

Sure they can be playable, and some people like the play style because it give them more to do while in combat(?), though that seems questionable. I don't need to babysit a DW as much, but I have Dual Weapon Sweep, Riposte, Flurry, Cripple. It isn't like there is that many great 2H non sustains, it's mainly arms/armor Sunders, and 2HSweep.

 

Indomitable is arguably one of the best sustained Warrior talents. But once you have your Phys Resistance up, it is more about the stun resistance than knockdown resistance. Still very nice, but not required. What you really need to boost survival is grab resistance/immunity (Shale/Dog).

 

But why I really don't like them isn't even about effectiveness.  In a lot of ways I think they are better than SnS. Indomitable is much better than Shield Wall.

 

It's really look/feel/aesthetics, where they blew it.  If the effectiveness stayed the same as now, but the look and feel was good, I probably wouldn't dislike them so much. As is, 2H warrior just waves his sword slowly in the general vicinity of enemies and the only idea they were hit is floating damage numbers, because it never looks like a hit.  It's like watching a molasses slow motion QT animation prerendered and not fitting with the action at all.  It is just so disconnected and unsatisfying on a visceral level.

 

When I play old games like NWN, my 2H swings sword, it connects with enemy at the same time the sound and damage are registered. It feels connected, like the character is hitting them.

[SherryGold]

KCP is good for what it is.  It is relatively cheap, available after Lothering, and grants 40% spell resist.  It has 5 will bonus to help with stamina.  Cailan's might be better when you run the whole set and get the fatigue bonus, but that isn't hugely surprising given that it is DLC.

 

Party damage depends on so many things it is hard to nail down how much is a result of what.  I agree the warden should generally have the advantage, but also depends on where your gold is being spent and which character you are microing the most.  2H and rogue both are pretty mediocre if left under AI control, one small difference is that mods can force rogues to go backstab, but there isn't anything I am aware of that makes AI control 2H correctly.  Of course there is also animation canceling which helps 2H, but that is obviously only when directly controlled.

 

I don't really know how Zev can catch a 2H warrior warden, especially if you spend gold on the warden first, and especially if you don't run extra backstab option in Advanced Tactics.  Yes dagger-dagger Zev will have better sustained auto-attack DPS but that isn't everything.  2H burst damage is higher.  With regard to kill numbers and kill stealing, generally if 2H leaves a target with a fraction of the health bar it is worth moving to the next target in a team setting and letting the rogue poke them a few times, or mage shoot them with the staff.  Alternatively, let the rogue poke them a couple times, then use sunders to get the kill.

 

With 2H low swing speed, economy of movement is a big consideration.  Talents need to only be used after a previous swing is completed, and largely after Level 12 (deathblow) you need to consider going nearly all talent use.  It is possible to go all auto-attack with 2H, but requires a pretty specialized team setup and also warden's keep.  I find talent spam more interesting (and this is largely why I like 2H better than dual dagger to play).

Well, a few things that makes it possible for Zev to catch the warden. I use Zevran asap mod and how long I stay in Lothering depends on when the warden levels up. As soon as he levels up, he quits all the quests in Lothering and go Zev hunting. That way, Zev will always one level up or the same level as the warden. I use a skill tome that comes with memory band for Morrigan and the next skill level up for Morrigan is used for unlocking master herbalism. I'm pretty rich from very early on. So getting Zev all the best gear he needs is no problem. Both mages also get equipped with best gear and staff available. Zevran is the resident mage killer and when the enemy has one mage, he gets one kill ahead of the warden. I use advance tactic mod with traitor turned on, and later possessed. I'm terrible at timing for talents so ironically party members not controlled by me tend to do better. But in case of Morrigan, it is necessary to interfere when the situation is tough because she can do far better than the tactic slot allows.

If I used just six points in cunning and unlocked master stealth and using one tactic slot for stealth, he would have done even better, as he would get a lot of critical hits even when the enemy was not paralyzed or stunned. But I agree that in the end game, the warden probably ends up doing more damage than Zev even in terms of party damage contribution. Dagger-dagger has its limits. The base value is just too low. I believe Zev actually did better against the dex rogue warden when I turned him into a strength rogue (he began as a dex rogue and once I raised his base dex to 36, I went all strength. I didn't like it that he got hits unlike when he was playing as a dex rogue, but he took much less damage when hit and he could knock down an elite darkspawn and even a white golem with his punisher. It was great to see.) Next time I try him as a strength rogue, I will make sure he reaches level 25. He ended level 24.

[Elhanan]

Melee rogue, not even close. 2h warriors just attack too slow for me to keep in my party.

As I mentioned earlier, recommend placing both Sunder attacks in Tactics to Nearest Enemy. This will aid in speeding 2H Companions. And for the Warden, like to use one Sunder before, and the other after another critical Talent (eg; Mighty Blow) to help in having one available off of cooldown as quickly as possible.

[Blazomancer]

@Snowdog65 - I hear you on the molasses analogy.

Regarding the 'nice but not required' view on stun resistance, I don't think it's the right way to look at it. Because by that token, one can say that even a mage's Heal spell or a dual wielder's Momentum is not required, which would be just as true. It is not about what is required, rather what options are available by making a particular decision, and whether those options are enough to take one through to the end.

I'm not sure I understand why you are bringing 'grab' into the mix, because neither class is immune to it. If anything, it's the warrior who would be typically having advantage in armor rating. Regardless, if it's about Shale/Dog, then using them have their own trade offs, especially if the intention is to use them specifically for surviving grabs, because they cease to be a concern after the initial levels, and even in the lower levels there are quite a few ways to nullify them.

Anyway, I see where you are coming from regarding your dislike, and have nothing against it.

[capn233]

Well, a few things that makes it possible for Zev to catch the warden. I use Zevran asap mod and how long I stay in Lothering depends on when the warden levels up. As soon as he levels up, he quits all the quests in Lothering and go Zev hunting. That way, Zev will always one level up or the same level as the warden. I use a skill tome that comes with memory band for Morrigan and the next skill level up for Morrigan is used for unlocking master herbalism. I'm pretty rich from very early on. So getting Zev all the best gear he needs is no problem. Both mages also get equipped with best gear and staff available. Zevran is the resident mage killer and when the enemy has one mage, he gets one kill ahead of the warden. I use advance tactic mod with traitor turned on, and later possessed. I'm terrible at timing for talents so ironically party members not controlled by me tend to do better. But in case of Morrigan, it is necessary to interfere when the situation is tough because she can do far better than the tactic slot allows.

If I used just six points in cunning and unlocked master stealth and using one tactic slot for stealth, he would have done even better, as he would get a lot of critical hits even when the enemy was not paralyzed or stunned. But I agree that in the end game, the warden probably ends up doing more damage than Zev even in terms of party damage contribution. Dagger-dagger has its limits. The base value is just too low. I believe Zev actually did better against the dex rogue warden when I turned him into a strength rogue (he began as a dex rogue and once I raised his base dex to 36, I went all strength. I didn't like it that he got hits unlike when he was playing as a dex rogue, but he took much less damage when hit and he could knock down an elite darkspawn and even a white golem with his punisher. It was great to see.) Next time I try him as a strength rogue, I will make sure he reaches level 25. He ended level 24.

 

I see.  I don't end up picking up Zevran until the usual time, so like in last game Zev was level 11.  No combat movement or coup de grace even at that point.  I would need to go through saves to see when auto-level gives him those two skills.  I make him strength most of the time these days just for the sake of making him a hipster really.

 

As far as 2H goes, I understand why people might not like them.  They aren't exactly DPS, they are sort of control, and they are not exactly tanks so what are they?  Regarding aesthetics, it is pretty funny that dwarf 2H typically drags his sword through the ground.

[Snowdog65]

@Snowdog65 - I hear you on the molasses analogy.

Regarding the 'nice but not required' view on stun resistance, I don't think it's the right way to look at it. Because by that token, one can say that even a mage's Heal spell or a dual wielder's Momentum is not required, which would be just as true. It is not about what is required, rather what options are available by making a particular decision, and whether those options are enough to take one through to the end.

I'm not sure I understand why you are bringing 'grab' into the mix, because neither class is immune to it. If anything, it's the warrior who would be typically having advantage in armor rating. Regardless, if it's about Shale/Dog, then using them have their own trade offs, especially if the intention is to use them specifically for surviving grabs, because they cease to be a concern after the initial levels, and even in the lower levels there are quite a few ways to nullify them.

Anyway, I see where you are coming from regarding your dislike, and have nothing against it.

 

 

Where Grab comes into it: I thought I was clear, it actually impresses me in a way that stun immunity does not.

 

Stun immunity is more of an annoyance saver. Stuns annoy me, but it is extremely rare that I end up dead because of them (I can't actually remember it happening, but it probably did sometime).

 

OTOH I would consider Grab Immunity a life saver.

 

Grab I can remember killing me MANY times. Most recently today when my 12th level party went after Flemeth and I decided to send my 2H in to sunder her armor. I have massive Warden Armor, a Dragon Slaying Sword (Yusaris) with +10 damage to Dragons and some fire immunity supplemented by a greater warmth balm.  In no time she was tossing me in the air like a chew toy and I was dead. A few minutes later I was back with Shale and Flemeth was soon dead. Grab immunity is an actual life saver. IMO. 

 

But again, I really think it is slow/terrible/disconnected animation that I hate more than anything, not the arguably less effective offense.

[Snowdog65]

Another annoying one (sure that regular 2H players already know)

 

The main spammed talents (Sunders and 2hSweep) don't process runes or mage weapon buffs.

 

So while Leli is dishing out +20 fire damage on each her hasted momentum rain of blows.

 

A 2H'er spamming talents to get around poor DPS is getting no runes/fire weapon bonuses. Except on the VERY slow auto attacks.  I may as well just give the damage runes to the DW, who will actually get something out of them.

 

I am starting to see how Zev could outdamage a 2h Main.

[Elhanan]

Another annoying one (sure that regular 2H players already know)
 
The main spammed talents (Sunders and 2hSweep) don't process runes or mage weapon buffs.
 
So while Leli is dishing out +20 fire damage on each her hasted momentum rain of blows.
 
A 2H'er spamming talents to get around poor DPS is getting no runes/fire weapon bonuses. Except on the VERY slow auto attacks.  I may as well just give the damage runes to the DW, who will actually get something out of them.
 
I am starting to see how Zev could outdamage a 2h Main.

True, but Runes that have passive effects like Spell or Physical resistance are good at all times.

[Mike3207]

The wikia entry says the only knockdown ability Indomitable is not immune to is Overwhelm. It says it does give immunity to ogre's charge attack-maybe Grab as well? Not sure.

 

It's also the case I bring companions whose abilities will help optimize my shapeshifter abilities. Rogue bards carry Song of Courage, Shale has the ability that adds +10 to Spellpower and 5 to critical chance. I stack critical chance/damage on my mages, so that's the party i usually roll with. I'll occasionally bring another mage for the fourth member.

 

Shapeshifters are immune to Overwhelm, so I'll wager they are immune to special attacks by Ogre.

[capn233]

^Ogre charge will stagger you a bit, just like with Shield Wall.  You can get grabbed, but this is more of a theoretical since 2H can potentially 2 shot nightmare ogres before they can get a chance (MB and Sunder where you have a decent chance of MB stunning the ogre).  Ogre Alphas are really the only ones you need to be too concerned with.

 

As far as runes go, usually makes sense to go at least one high level Hale and then whatever you want for the others, but Dweomer if Templar.  Hale is to reduce length of unavoidable stuff like sunder from shattering shot.  Templar 2H is immune to nearly everything in the game.

[Qis]

There are a lot of Archers in Denerim, those bandits will Scatter Shot at high level where Melee Rogue will have problem. being stunned in every second is an annoyance.

 

That's where Indomitable is a great advantage, even Shield Wall is not effective against Scatter Shot because special attacks cannot be blocked.

[Snowdog65]

Yet another downside: The worse Defense of any melee class. I got killed almost by surprise (Where did my health go?) a couple of times, because I was used to having much higher Defense and not getting torn down so quick.

 

Kolgrim ripped me a new one, where my Dex Rogue owned him.

 

When meeting Kolgrim:

2h Defense: 59

Dex Rogue Defense: 133

 

Kolgrim can't seem to miss hitting my 2H Warrior.

[Qis]

That's why Constitution is important, need at least. Add all items up at least 30, 40 is better to be effective.

 

For TH Warrior, most important stats investment are Strength, Willpower and Constitution. Dexterity is optional, it will help if invest some, but it is not a must.

 

You don't have shield to shrug off missiles and to become immune to flanking, you just attack, attack and attack. You must take a lot of damage and still alive to deliver blows. You are slow but deal one hit lots of damage. You're a nuclear tank with no protection.

 

But you can deal with multiple enemies using Sweep, War Cry if choosing Champion and Holy Smite if choosing Templar. In fact this is the ideal specializations to choose for TH role. Otherwise Berserker and Reaver for max damage dealing.

 

Your advantage is you're immune to stun and knockdown as early at level 1, so all enemies stun and knockdown attacks (except Overwhelm) don't effect you at all. Fireball don't knock you down and that's something.

 

Your only downside is lack of defense that's all, and that's why Constitution is important. And you need to increase survival chance via party setup....

[Snowdog65]

That's why Constitution is important, need at least. Add all items up at least 30, 40 is better to be effective.

 

When you are being hit, at will, by a high damager, more Con is not the solution, getting out of the line of fire is. I would bet Kolgrims hit rate on 59 defense is 100%.

 

My 2H main had to run away and let my mage Force Field Kolgrim until the whole party could take him down.

 

My Dex-Rogue could just take him on toe to toe, and win every time.

 

Playing through the Sacred Ashes caverns as both recently was instructive.  When I played this as a DW-Dex-Rogue main with combat stealth, I scouted in and killed all the mages, disabled all the traps, so my party steamrolled it with ease, I often forgot to bring the party along, my rogue could pretty much solo.

 

Playing as a 2H main(dwarf), in KCP with a couple of anti magic runes, I was largely resistant to spells so I charged the Mages, only to see Resisted, while a cone of cold still froze me in place every friggen time, and then mage wreaked havoc with spells, as reavers beat on me. Much messier going.

[Qis]

If you're a Reaver, getting hit is your goal, but you must make sure not to die before you can effectively deliver more damage. So you need more Constitution for that.

 

http://dragonage.wik...renzy_(Origins)

 

Adds +1 damage for every 10% of health below the reaver's maximum health, i.e. from +1 damage when at 90% of maximum health to +9 damage when at 10%.

 

Blood Frenzy's health regeneration penalty can be mitigated with Resilience's (Berserker) bonus which gives +1.5/+3 health regeneration, or with gear such as the Cailan's armor set (+5 health regeneration).

 

If you're not a Reaver then more Constitution means more health, nothing wrong with having more health. Just chug health poultice when needed.

 

The only problem is players following "advice" for "put everything in Strength"...that's the problem.

[capn233]

A lot of people (myself included) don't think you need Con on 2H.  What you need is armor rating.  If 2H appears to die surprisingly, you were probably sundered.

[Qis]

That "a lot" of people only count numbers, don't role-play....means only play with specific set up with specific party members and doing specific thing all the time

 

And they didn't tell how many times their character fall....

[Snowdog65]

Why would you think I am a Reaver?  I never unlocked that specialization on any playthrough.